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enemy_territory
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 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jtorrebl wrote: | | oldschool32 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | 6. Dwight will ALWAYS know he had surgery, he'll ALWAYS feel just a little different. That's unavoidable. BUT that feeling doesn't affect his ability to do what he needs to do. Per Dr. Klapper as fans we should be able to tell NO DIFFERENCE in the way he plays. He should have essentially NO difference in his skills, athleticism, etc. |
This concerns me a little bit. I'm sure he will be fine, but back pain doesn't just go away with surgery. Its alleviated, but it isn't 100% gone. Saying that he will not feel the same, but will still play the same is somewhat of a contradiction imo. Hope he takes all the time he needs and gets that back 110% before coming back. |
Back pain due to herniated disk protrusion will feel 100% better once the herniated portion is excised. I have a disk bulge and it never goes away until surgery, which I can't take the time to or risk having just yet for my minor symptoms. |
It can depend where and the severity of the herniation. If the damaged disc is in the lumbar region where the discs are much larger than you may be right.
In 2006 I had 3 herniated discs in my upper vertebrae where they are smaller and just needed a few months of therapy and stretching. The discs then moved back into place. After which the pain mostly went away. Today i lift weights consistently and havent had any problems since. Though i must say the pain at the time was pretty intense. the discs that were herniated were pushing on the nerves that were connected to my left shoulder and arm muscles.The pressure on the nerves caused a loss of muscle in those areas. I had a big right arm and a skinny left.
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RG73
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Joined: 14 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: | I posted a few days ago in another thread about a doctor I visited who knows the situation very well. Asked him about Kobe, Howard, and Bynum.
Told me Kobe did actually consider retiring before he had the Germany procedure done (I never really believed that to be the case).
Said Howard will be back to normal, except that his career will be shortened.
His exact quote on Bynum's knee - "damaged goods". |
So basically a doctor you went to see knows confidential information about patients treated by another physician and shared it with you, without any of the aforementioned players signing a medical records release form allowing you access to their privileged medical information?
Color me skeptical that a physician violated both medical ethics and federal law all to keep you in the loop so you could post hearsay on the internet.
That Kobe considered retirement is public knowledge--he's actually admitted this. That Bynum's knees are a mess is again public knowledge.
As far as Howard's career being shortened, why on Earth would this be the case based on a 1 inch incision that didn't cut any muscles? 20 years ago his career would be shortened because they would have had to use massively invasive surgery to do this procedure. Now? What in Howard's medical records (that this physician illegally accessed and disclosed by your account) suggests that Howard will have a shortened career? |
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dfchang813
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | 55 wrote: | I posted a few days ago in another thread about a doctor I visited who knows the situation very well. Asked him about Kobe, Howard, and Bynum.
Told me Kobe did actually consider retiring before he had the Germany procedure done (I never really believed that to be the case).
Said Howard will be back to normal, except that his career will be shortened.
His exact quote on Bynum's knee - "damaged goods". |
So basically a doctor you went to see knows confidential information about patients treated by another physician and shared it with you, without any of the aforementioned players signing a medical records release form allowing you access to their privileged medical information?
Color me skeptical that a physician violated both medical ethics and federal law all to keep you in the loop so you could post hearsay on the internet.
That Kobe considered retirement is public knowledge--he's actually admitted this. That Bynum's knees are a mess is again public knowledge.
As far as Howard's career being shortened, why on Earth would this be the case based on a 1 inch incision that didn't cut any muscles? 20 years ago his career would be shortened because they would have had to use massively invasive surgery to do this procedure. Now? What in Howard's medical records (that this physician illegally accessed and disclosed by your account) suggests that Howard will have a shortened career? |
To be fair, 55 may be referring to the fact that the physician is an orthopedic surgeon who is familiar with the type of injury and type of surgery that Dwight had undergone.
It's actually a pretty common injury and surgical treatment.
Obviously each patient is different and he may just be extrapolating that information incorrectly to Dwight's particular situation.
The career being shortened is a possibility also brought up by Dr. Klapper as well. Basically the reason has nothing to do with the muscle or the incision but the loss of disc material from the herniation.
That disc is known as the nucleus pulposus and it is the "shock absorber" between our vertebra. When a part of it is herniated out, it can impinge on nerves causing pain, numbness, loss of muscle, etc. The treatment is to remove the herniated portion.
It is very important to remove ONLY the part that is herniated out because you can't replace that. What takes its place is scar tissue and that obviously has NONE of the elasticity of the original material.
Over time, because of the lessened amount of "shock absorber" especially with a profession that involves the amount of jumping and leaping that NBA level basketball requires, more stress will be placed on the other lumbar vertebrae surrouding the previously herniated disc.
IN TIME, that may shorten a player's career in terms of his leaping ability and flexibility.
Of course, you need to temper this information with a lot of other facts and factors which we simply are not privy too.
Certainly the lumbar vertebrae are the largest in diameter in the body. The amount herniated makes a big difference obviously.
From all accounts, Dwight suffered a very small herniation which was able to be removed with a microscope and through a very small incision.
Truth be told, physical therapy and conservative treatment would probably have been recommended for about 99 percent of the general population but in this case we are not talking about 99 percent of the general population, we are taking about Dwight Howard.
The removal of a VERY SMALL amount of the disc from a large lumbar disc likely will have VERY LITTLE impact on Dwight's longevity.
OBVIOUSLY, it would be better if he had NO INJURY in the first place, but there's a lot worse things that can happen to your back than a small disc hernation corrected with a microdiscectomy.
As you age, your athleticism decreases naturally anyway. You don't see Kobe skying for a 360 degree jam from the free throw line anymore do you?
So Dwight has another 10 years of effectiveness instead of 11. MAYBE.
If he takes care of himself, keeps himself in shape, and doesn't turn into a big, fat, disgusting hog like Shaq at the tail end of his career . . . well then guess what?? Those knees and ankles and back vertebrae might serve him well for a few more quality years.
Hope that helps a bit. I'm not an orthopedic surgeon but I have a surgical background and training (I'm a head and neck surgeon) and listened pretty closely to Dr. Klapper discuss Dwight's situation. He's the chief of orthopedic surgery at Cedar Sinai and is very well respected. He knows what he is talking about.
What 55's doctor and Dr. Klapper are saying is common sense basically but the actual IMPACT I personally feel in light of the very minor severity of Dwight's injury will be minimal on his overall career.
I think Dr. Klapper said the same thing by the way. Even with all of that, he expects Dwight to have a long and fabled career. |
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TheeLakeshow
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Joined: 08 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: | I posted a few days ago in another thread about a doctor I visited who knows the situation very well. Asked him about Kobe, Howard, and Bynum.
Told me Kobe did actually consider retiring before he had the Germany procedure done (I never really believed that to be the case).
Said Howard will be back to normal, except that his career will be shortened.
His exact quote on Bynum's knee - "damaged goods". |
Depends on who you talk with.....
Many doctors are slowing coming around to alternative therapy, with that being said, injury history or injuries that would have rendered a player damaged goods are slowly becoming an after thought.
With the radical advances in the medical field each year, injuries are far less a concern then before.
If we can all remember just last year Kobes knee was DONE, I mean DONE. Thanks to Regenokine that knee is back to about 95 percent.
Also see Brandon Roy and Sean Livingston
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Chronicle
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Location: Manhattan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| TheeLakeshow wrote: |
Also see Brandon Roy |
Have to see him before I can say "yes man you're totally right here have a beer." |
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Kb24goldenChild
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Joined: 11 Dec 2011
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Location: Tyler , Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:31 am Post subject: |
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http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/08/13/just-how-healthy-is-dwight-howard/
HANG TIME NEW JERSEY – The Dwight Howard trade made quite a splash last week, and for good reason. By acquiring Howard, the Lakers put themselves in the championship conversation and there was room for debate about just how bad of a package the Magic got in return for the league’s best center.
But one important aspect of the deal got a little lost in the hype of Howard taking his place as the latest great center to wear forum blue and gold: his health.
On April 20, Howard had surgery to repair a herniated disc in his back. Since then, he’s been rehabbing in Los Angeles. But four months later, he’s yet to begin running, as he admitted at his introductory press conference on Friday.
So when exactly will Howard be ready to play? Kevin Ding of the Orange County Register digs into that question, and doesn’t come out with a concrete answer…
The Lakers’ understanding of Howard’s lumbar microdiscectomy (surgical removal of herniated disc fragments in the lower back) is that standard recovery time is six or seven months. Howard had surgery April 20, which his doctor deemed went without complication, so six months off takes him to Oct. 20.
However, Howard told ESPN’s Chris Broussard just before the surgery: “The doctor said it’s a one-inch incision. He said I can start rehab right away and be back to full contact in four months. So I’m not really concerned. If anything, I’ll come back stronger.”
Four months is just about now, so that’s not happening. Whatever is happening, it sounds fine to the Lakers.
They were granted the opportunity Friday morning to discuss Howard’s situation with his Marina del Rey-based surgeon, Robert Watkins, with whom the Lakers have a relationship.
“We feel very assured he’s going to be back,” Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said. “We’re hopeful he’s back for camp; we’re hopeful he’s back to start the season. But we know he’s going to be back and playing at a high level at some point in time.”
It’s might be safe to assume that Howard will be fine and at 100 percent by December at the latest. At worst, that’s a minor hiccup in the Lakers’ season.
But really, you never know how a player is going to recover from surgery. Just four months ago, Howard was seen as indestructible. Now, not so much. And while the league seemingly goes dormant for the next month and a half, the status of Howard’s rehab is a critical story leading up to training camp. |
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dfchang813
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, the above doesn't add too much new. This is what has been publicized.
And they are incorrect with their details. 4 months from surgery technically would be around 08/20/2012 which is still another week away. Wouldn't be surprised if they delayed full contact all the way to September.
At least from a medical facts point of view, I'm a little disappointed at the shoddy quality of reporting out there. |
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theairofficial
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Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I dont think Dwight's health gonna be problem... this is big man and he is definitly gonna be allright. i think there's too much hype about his back |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the very informative information shared, starting with dfchang
What the Lakers bring is a starting lineup filled with HOFs plus one of the best wing defenders in the NBA that was never given to him at Orlando. Hopefully this situation will limit his PT and the need to cover the full court all the time. With Kobe and World Peace covering the perimeter for Nash, he will covering the paint for Nash with others such as Pau, Hill, Clark, Shanks and World Peace. |
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Dr. Laker
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Joined: 12 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | 55 wrote: | I posted a few days ago in another thread about a doctor I visited who knows the situation very well. Asked him about Kobe, Howard, and Bynum.
Told me Kobe did actually consider retiring before he had the Germany procedure done (I never really believed that to be the case).
Said Howard will be back to normal, except that his career will be shortened.
His exact quote on Bynum's knee - "damaged goods". |
So basically a doctor you went to see knows confidential information about patients treated by another physician and shared it with you, without any of the aforementioned players signing a medical records release form allowing you access to their privileged medical information?
Color me skeptical that a physician violated both medical ethics and federal law all to keep you in the loop so you could post hearsay on the internet.
That Kobe considered retirement is public knowledge--he's actually admitted this. That Bynum's knees are a mess is again public knowledge.
As far as Howard's career being shortened, why on Earth would this be the case based on a 1 inch incision that didn't cut any muscles? 20 years ago his career would be shortened because they would have had to use massively invasive surgery to do this procedure. Now? What in Howard's medical records (that this physician illegally accessed and disclosed by your account) suggests that Howard will have a shortened career? |
MDs are people, too, and under the right conditions their adherence to ethics, HIPPA, confidentially, etc., will slip.
I've been at dinner parties with MD friends who've shown up late and, after a glass of wine or three, explained their lateness: "R--- wrapped his car around a pole and was drunk as a skunk - the Dodgers beat the cops to the scene and whisked him to my office to check him out just as I was leaving."
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BROW GOAT 23
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Bballguru5000
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Location: Born and Raised in Los Angeles, now living in Manhattan, NY.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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"The most dominant defensive force in the NBA basically feels disrespected and the league has NO IDEA what is coming down on them from the 5 slot."
Music to my ears! |
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TheHit88
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Herniations usually occur at the lumbar region due to chronic wear and tear from flexion of the lumbar spine.
The lumbar portion of the spine is not meant for movement. The "core" which includes the lower back and abs is meant for stability. Its often why a lot of people with disc herniations in the lumbar spine have strong lower back muscles.
Someone with strong lower back muscles usually raises a red flag because the person is moving a lot through the lumbar area. People usually move through the lumbar area due to underactive/weak glutes.
It's pretty hard to herniate a healthy disc acutely. Think of the force thats generated from a car accident.
I'm pretty confident that in Howard's case, it was due to a degenerating disc and the fluid inside the disc kept pushing out in small increments from bad movement. Eventually herniating the disc from flexion of the lumbar spine area. (my opinion was generated from the training he does and through experience training basketball players. tall dudes do not like bending down. especially for exercises like deadlifts, cleans, and etc.. They usually use their lower back during the lifts.)
idk why the op suggests that dwight should train like a "beast" and he'll be ok.
Dwight needs to focus on the quality of movement instead of quantity. If he trains like the way he did pre injury he'll just get hurt again due to bad movement. Surgery does not fix bad movement.
Therefore, I hope dwight takes his time with this and focuses on functional movement training for a few months before he hits it hard.
If not, I'm pretty sure another disc herniation is on the horizon which may shorten his career. I doubt that this injury will shorten Dwight's career if Howard changes his training. If Howard puts an emphasis on movement quality during his training and in everyday life (squatting down to pick up something from the floor instead of bending over) he should be in good shape.
I wouldn't worry too much about this injury. It can be fixed with proper training and shouldn't affect d12 in the long term. |
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LakersRGolden
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Posts: 7922
Location: Lake Forest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Dwight's Back, General Info |
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| City_Dawg wrote: | | dfchang813 wrote: |
4. He had surgery 04/20/2012
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Oh, well then he got the best kind of treatment possible.  |
Are you saying he may have a chronic condition? |
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BlakeJay
Star Player
Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Great thing about this is We have 12 of our first 16 games at home lol we're gonna get off to a good start even if Howard was out til December |
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enemy_territory
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 698
Location: Miami,FL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TheHit88 wrote: | Herniations usually occur at the lumbar region due to chronic wear and tear from flexion of the lumbar spine.
The lumbar portion of the spine is not meant for movement. The "core" which includes the lower back and abs is meant for stability. Its often why a lot of people with disc herniations in the lumbar spine have strong lower back muscles.
Someone with strong lower back muscles usually raises a red flag because the person is moving a lot through the lumbar area. People usually move through the lumbar area due to underactive/weak glutes.
It's pretty hard to herniate a healthy disc acutely. Think of the force thats generated from a car accident.
I'm pretty confident that in Howard's case, it was due to a degenerating disc and the fluid inside the disc kept pushing out in small increments from bad movement. Eventually herniating the disc from flexion of the lumbar spine area. (my opinion was generated from the training he does and through experience training basketball players. tall dudes do not like bending down. especially for exercises like deadlifts, cleans, and etc.. They usually use their lower back during the lifts.)
idk why the op suggests that dwight should train like a "beast" and he'll be ok.
Dwight needs to focus on the quality of movement instead of quantity. If he trains like the way he did pre injury he'll just get hurt again due to bad movement. Surgery does not fix bad movement.
Therefore, I hope dwight takes his time with this and focuses on functional movement training for a few months before he hits it hard.
If not, I'm pretty sure another disc herniation is on the horizon which may shorten his career. I doubt that this injury will shorten Dwight's career if Howard changes his training. If Howard puts an emphasis on movement quality during his training and in everyday life (squatting down to pick up something from the floor instead of bending over) he should be in good shape.
I wouldn't worry too much about this injury. It can be fixed with proper training and shouldn't affect d12 in the long term. |
If he wants to train legs he could do hack squats or leg press. I'm sure he would need specially made machines though. I doubt he ever did too much of that stuff for legs though. Obviously clean and jerk may not be in his workout routine in the near future. To be honest i don't have a clue what kind of weight training routine the typical 6-11 nba player goes through if any???
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Also good to know that #NBA commissioner #DavidStern is against the free market. Hey Dave, move to China. #Lakers |
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Showtime is back!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| i'm hopeful this is true and that Dwight will be ready at the start of the season |
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Voices
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Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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DH back situation is/was no minor surgery...it is complicated..according to Klapper DH should be able to start basketball activity next week. It seems from other feedback that ain't happening. So who is really right...Those who say DH will be the same player he was before the serious back injury, or those that think there is a real possibility that the super athletic freak DH will never be the same or at least not be the same until he has had a much longer recovery period. I had said all along nobody can predict recovery with certainty. Not because I am smart, because Doctors agree to disagee many times! DH case to me it is even more complicated because he is such a freakish athlete and depends on that freakish athleticism to make him who he is as a basketball player.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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Canuck
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you so much for this Doc. It really is nice to have real expert knowledge on this. |
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dfchang813
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Time will tell.
But all available evidence point to the fact that there is nothing complicted at all.
Nor is there an argument he had a minor surgery. That is the very definition of a one inch incision and a MICRO discectomy.
Finally the CONSENSUS opinionn of multiple orthopedic surgeons including Dr. Klapper and Dr. Blake who performed the surgery is that Dwight will be fine.
I'm not sure where the "other feedback" is? No credible source has suggested Dwight has had any setback of any kind and we are right on schedule playing it safe until he is allowed full contact activities by the end of August/beginning of September.
Physicial trainers and those here who lift weights state that 2-3 months of conditioning and weights should be more than enough to restore Dwight's previous physique and strength. |
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32
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I think this might have been posted before. This is a study from 2002 so it's likely the results are even better now.
| Quote: | Microscopic lumbar discectomy results for 60 cases in professional
and Olympic athletes
Results:
Follow-up indicated that all but 7 of the 60 cases had returned to their sport, including one
who underwent a second MLD for a herniation at an adjacent level. The average time from surgery
to return was 5.2 months for the entire group, with a range of 1 to 15 months.
Conclusion:
MLD was effective in correcting the problems that forced the athletes to seek help, and
the time to return often depends on factors other than their medical condition. Postoperatively, a
complete trunk stabilization rehabilitation program was effective in returning these athletes to a high
level of competition. |
LINK
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32
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32
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a study from 2010 on NFL players:
| Quote: | Performance-based outcomes following lumbar discectomy in professional athletes in the National Football League.
CONCLUSION:
The data in this study suggests that even though a lumbar discectomy has career-threatening implications, a large percentage of NFL athletes return to play at competitive levels. Despite the general opinion of many NFL general managers, players who are able to complete the rigorous rehabilitation required to return to play after lumbar discectomy can expect excellent performance-based outcomes after surgery. |
LINK
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32
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Martell Webster had a microdiscectomy on Sept. 28, 2011.
LINK
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oldschool32
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I was listening to the Philly radio station feed after the Bynum press conference, a dr(I think he was a dr) mentioned that in Germany they don't remove part of the disc. They remove the entire disc and replace it with an engineered disc. After disc replacement, the patient is supposed to be good to go. This came up when they were discussing the knee treatment that he will be getting in Germany. I haven't researched it yet to see if it was legit, but I did find it interesting.
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