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30
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
KB#8,#24 wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
I will have to disagree with all the recommended posters above and recommend the following:

Postnpivot
Venturalakersfan
KB#8,#24
KobeMania
Dvdrdiscs

All swell guys/girls/unknowns


I agree with this list. BTW what does it take to become a mod?


Herpes, a greedy ex-spouse, extreme poverty/homelessness, some form of physical and/or mental deformity, and a seething case of random rage.


Yes, I meet all of those qualifications! Sign me up!
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject:

KB#8,#24 wrote:
24 wrote:
KB#8,#24 wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
I will have to disagree with all the recommended posters above and recommend the following:

Postnpivot
Venturalakersfan
KB#8,#24
KobeMania
Dvdrdiscs

All swell guys/girls/unknowns


I agree with this list. BTW what does it take to become a mod?



Herpes, a greedy ex-spouse, extreme poverty/homelessness, some form of physical and/or mental deformity, and a seething case of random rage.


Yes, I meet all of those qualifications! Sign me up!
OK, but can you also love player/idea X and persecute those who don't, while simultaneously hating player/ idea X and persecuting its supporters? Based on the complaints we get we are all apparently unfairly for and against everything, so you have to be able to pull that off.
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Last edited by Omar Little on Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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No. 17
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject:

Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.
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55
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject:

No. 17 wrote:
Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.


Wolf gets my vote. Guy is a class act and an excellent poster.
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30
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
KB#8,#24 wrote:
24 wrote:
KB#8,#24 wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
I will have to disagree with all the recommended posters above and recommend the following:

Postnpivot
Venturalakersfan
KB#8,#24
KobeMania
Dvdrdiscs

All swell guys/girls/unknowns


I agree with this list. BTW what does it take to become a mod?



Herpes, a greedy ex-spouse, extreme poverty/homelessness, some form of physical and/or mental deformity, and a seething case of random rage.


Yes, I meet all of those qualifications! Sign me up!
OK, but can you also love player/idea X and persecute those who don't, while simultaneously hating player/ idea X and persecuting its supporters? Based on the complaints we get we are all apparently unfairly for and against everything, so you have to be able to pull that off.


Ya, I think i can stay objective, and I can ignore criticism fairly well. Sign me up!


Last edited by 30 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject:

No. 17 wrote:
Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.


PEDs.
We are on the juice.
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Freddie Buckets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
No. 17 wrote:
Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.


PEDs.
We are on the juice.


lifetime ban.
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Chronicle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject:

Kobe2Dwight12 wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
No. 17 wrote:
Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.


PEDs.
We are on the juice.


lifetime ban.


1 year suspension, with pay.
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject:

55 wrote:
No. 17 wrote:
Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.


Wolf gets my vote. Guy is a class act and an excellent poster.
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject:

HungryBear wrote:
The website needs a serious upgrade in the quality of the moderation. There is so much trolling and flaming and just plain retarded posting given how upset everyone is. The mods need to start laying down the hammer. The quality of the postings have really gone downhill over the years as has the discourse. I'm all for reasonable discussion and disagreement among posters, but it is just blatant that so many people are trolling or posting without thinking or are locked into their dogmatic mindset.



I don't mind discontent, it goes with being a passionate fan... but you're right about the content. Too many content-free posters out there who unthinkingly write whatever crap enters their heads, which though they might mean well, destroys the quality of the site. Closely related to the genus is another specie of fan who never "advance the argument" in that they'll post the same mindless diatribe, pro or con, repeatedly without adding value (i.e. "Jimmy is an idiot" or "Mitch is the best GM") which though I might agree with both in parts, posting that and that alone does little to persuade or enlighten. Look at it this way: LG doesn't allow users to post mindless videos or graphics as they tend plaster the site with noise rather than information. The content-free posters and posters who cannot advance the argument do the same, in that they contribute no information and provide excessive, annoying noise. In addition there are thinly disguised trolls masquerading as Lakers fans, looking to incite at every opportunity. I think it is time for some serious house cleaning as the quality of the site has been deteriorating.
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30
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject:

24, when is my inauguration?
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject:

KB#8,#24 wrote:
24, when is my inauguration?


Your badge is in the mail.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
55 wrote:
No. 17 wrote:
Not enough mods. A site this busy, needs a heck of a lot more active mods than there are now.


Wolf gets my vote. Guy is a class act and an excellent poster.

Appreciate it, but no thanks. I think guys like Wilt, Lowest Merion etc fit the identity of the staff way better than I, and would get along perfectly with current staff, which is very important.

If i had any power one of the first things I'd do is try to stop the public humiliation stuff. It's too old JD era lakersground for me. I'd just suspend a guy, pm him and that's that. Warnings are cool, but I HATE how many threads i read and want to post in and wind up seeing a whole page of 1-2 mods backing each other up and just going at it with a poster. Just ban the troll or just suspend the guy and PM him. In some cases it's called for, but it's done way too much. It takes away from the thread. Delete the trolls posts, and just keep on track with the thread.

A few other things as well I'd want to see done differently, but thanks for those who mentioned me.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject:

Maybe I'm just a biased party here, but the comparisons of how the current staff operates to JD-era LG are pretty far from the truth.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
HungryBear wrote:
The website needs a serious upgrade in the quality of the moderation. There is so much trolling and flaming and just plain retarded posting given how upset everyone is. The mods need to start laying down the hammer. The quality of the postings have really gone downhill over the years as has the discourse. I'm all for reasonable discussion and disagreement among posters, but it is just blatant that so many people are trolling or posting without thinking or are locked into their dogmatic mindset.



I don't mind discontent, it goes with being a passionate fan... but you're right about the content. Too many content-free posters out there who unthinkingly write whatever crap enters their heads, which though they might mean well, destroys the quality of the site. Closely related to the genus is another specie of fan who never "advance the argument" in that they'll post the same mindless diatribe, pro or con, repeatedly without adding value (i.e. "Jimmy is an idiot" or "Mitch is the best GM") which though I might agree with both in parts, posting that and that alone does little to persuade or enlighten. Look at it this way: LG doesn't allow users to post mindless videos or graphics as they tend plaster the site with noise rather than information. The content-free posters and posters who cannot advance the argument do the same, in that they contribute no information and provide excessive, annoying noise. In addition there are thinly disguised trolls masquerading as Lakers fans, looking to incite at every opportunity. I think it is time for some serious house cleaning as the quality of the site has been deteriorating.


Your overriding point is a valid one, which is that there are a significant portion of posts that add little value in terms of furthering the conversation. The question that we face is how exactly that should be handled. How should we go about cleaning house? (I'm not asking rhetorically...I'm legitimately asking you as a poster that I respect)

Some options...

1) Our current way of doing so is by identifying posters who do this so often that it consists of a significant portion of their posts, then we go down the list of punishments that have increasing severity. (verbal warning, then short suspension, then longer suspension, then possible ban)

Downside to this approach: Possibly alienating quality posters, who feel like the mods are too lenient with this sort of thing and participate less as a result. This seems describe your perspective.

2) We could delete posts of this nature and continue on as though nothing has happened, for the purpose of maintaining the quality of a thread.

Downside to this approach: There are a couple of different issues with this, although it seems simple enough.

Firstly, there will be cries of censorship and accusations that if you don't hold a pro-FO (or pro-anything) stance, you're subject to punishment. We already get those accusations, frankly. Do we delete "Jimbo sucks" posts, but keep "Kobe is awesome" posts?

Secondly, in my experience, when moderation is done in private, it leaves room for interpretation and people assume the worst. Whenever I suspend or ban someone, I will reply to the offending post on the board (or "publicly humiliate", as wolf calls it) so everyone's aware of what the offending post is.

Lastly, and more pragmatically, deleting every post of this nature would significantly increase the workload of the staff. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but you'd probably need to add a couple more mods at that point.

3) Make an announcement to the board and punish the offenders swiftly and harshly to get the point across.

Downside to this approach: We get the JD accusations with how we do things now. This would actually give them validity.

AP...I do think that we have an obligation to moderate/elevate the quality of the discourse on the site. That's actually a big reason why I did the "Just the Data" thread and plan on doing more things in that vein when the season starts. I also agree that there are a significant amount of worthless posts that do nothing but pollute the board. The difficult part is handling such posts in a way that doesn't create secondary issues in the process, which is why I posted my perceived downsides for the 3 options above. Any choice that we make will have negative repercussions in some respect, so to me it's a question of balancing the positive/negative effects of what we do.

In our case, that line of thinking has us doing #1, but we're certainly open to suggestions.
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LarryCoon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject:

First -- I've always thought Wolf would make a good mod, and contribute to the balance of attributes of the mod staff. He's also been approached before to gauge his interest, and declined further consideration. If he ever changes his mind and wants the job, I'd be an advocate.

Second, I think it's hyperbole to compare today to the JD era.

Third, I think the very nature of the job puts the mod staff between a rock and a hard place. Case in point here -- if we quietly suspend people with messages only to those who are suspended, the general population doesn't see it. Through the subset of interaction they CAN see they are led to the conclusion that certain people get away with murder, or that we're being too lenient. OTOH, if we do say something publicly -- both to let the general population know we're doing something about it and to serve as a warning to others -- then it's interpreted as "shaming."
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Maybe I'm just a biased party here, but the comparisons of how the current staff operates to JD-era LG are pretty far from the truth.


Quote:
Second, I think it's hyperbole to compare today to the JD era.

No, I said there are too many threads that resemble that era where you'd lose focus on the topic title. Threads going away from talking basketball and I feel a simple suspension or banning is sufficient. Isn't it a moderators job to get rid of the non-topic talk and getting the topic back on hand?

Do realize where you guys see it or not, for whatever reason (Probably my post count) users on this board to address me with concerns. This was one of them. They saw a change and it was recent. This was one of them.

BTW, not that I'm concerned with anyone being offended or not, since this was supposed to be an open forum to throw out suggestions, I am in no way saying that the current staff is moderating just like JD. I'm saying that specific aspect can become JD like. There's no reason to ridicule and over do it with the banning and public humiliation. People are smart enough to know when a post is deleted - what that could imply if the poster doesn't return. The primary goal should be to get the community be able to discuss that thread. So if a few pages are dedicated to just "exposing" that poster, does it really do that? And isn't 1 moderator in a thread enough? Do we really need 2 or 3 coming in and making the exact same point? It wasn't like that before.

Quote:
. Case in point here -- if we quietly suspend people with messages only to those who are suspended, the general population doesn't see it. Through the subset of interaction they CAN see they are led to the conclusion that certain people get away with murder, or that we're being too lenient. OTOH, if we do say something publicly -- both to let the general population know we're doing something about it and to serve as a warning to others -- then it's interpreted as "shaming."

Yet I can recall countless times posters were banned and we never knew about it. We found about it way after. Case in point, Popcorn Machine. Maybe because of his history as a staff member. There were quite a few others who were banned without anyone but staff knowing. My point remains. It can be done without the excessive degree it has in recent times. It's cool if you disagree.

I see almost no benefit in the public trials or public humiliation. Do you really think that anyone on the board gets "afraid" when that happens? Trolls are trolls. Posters who push the envelope and edge will do so regardless. Countless posters will still break the TOS.

Used to it was rare (maybe once in a month or two months or maybe once in a long stretch) where you'd see those sort of threads. Now? Way too often. Personally I think users are smart enough to know and see when a user is breaking the TOS or asking for a ban.

BTW, I would like to think I can state my opinion without anyone getting offended, but if someone is, too bad.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject:

It's not a matter of being offended, it's a matter of disagreeing with your evaluation. I don't get offended by anything you post.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
It's not a matter of being offended, it's a matter of disagreeing with your evaluation. I don't get offended by anything you post.

No problem if you disagree with my evaluation. Giving an opinion and feedback. I dislike 20% of the way things are done, and 80% is done great. If you guys think it's being done all well, that's cool with me. I'm giving feedback. What you guys do that with that, is totally up to you.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
It's not a matter of being offended, it's a matter of disagreeing with your evaluation. I don't get offended by anything you post.

No problem if you disagree with my evaluation. Giving an opinion and feedback. I dislike 20% of the way things are done, and 80% is done great. If you guys think it's being done all well, that's cool with me. I'm giving feedback. What you guys do that with that, is totally up to you.


I don't think the site is moderated completely well. Case in point, the concern that HungryBear and angrypuppy voiced. I don't think we've really pinned down how that particular issue should be handled. I just disagree on this specific issue that you mentioned and how you characterized it, nothing more.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Maybe I'm just a biased party here, but the comparisons of how the current staff operates to JD-era LG are pretty far from the truth.


FWIW, the public thing on my end isn't a shaming or fear inducing thing. Contrary to popular belief, my bans and suspensions are almost entirely in the newbie troll/repeat troll category. I make them public and often "splashy" for a couple reasons:

1. As a parent, I know that loudly disciplining one child often keeps the other children in line. I don't expect to instill fear in our normal posters, but rather just a reminder to a fringe/new group that we are around and do enforce the rules. Doing it once loudly is often more effective than multiple times quietly. Is it effective broadly or over any length of time? Probably not, but it does tend to cool things out in a specific group for a short time. Same general principal as an emphasis patrol, in a smaller scale.

2. Trolls exist to incite and derail threads. When you ban them with something humorous or over the top, it often diffuses the tension they created in the thread, which can help keep the rest of the guys from getting owly with each other.

That's pretty much my mission as a mod. Hunting trolls. I've been here too long and post too much in too many subjects to be too successful with the long time posters. Other mods do that far more effectively and fairly (in reality and especially perception) than I can. All of us really like and care about the site, and all of us are sensitive to criticism. Not in the "you hurt my feelings" way, but in the "good to know" way.

There's a very fine line between tastes and styles that you'll never completely walk. I get people, for example, who say we're too pro player X, while others are convinced we're completely against the same player, and both think we're unfair to their "group". Similarly, I've gotten complaints that we're not active enough, while also getting complaints that we're overmoderating, at the same time. There are also posters who will tell us we need to "crack down", and when we do, those same posters will tell us we're being too aggressive. It's a tough crowd sometimes, but that's part of it.

Most importantly, we see and appreciate the feedback, even the stuff that makes us cringe and roll our eyes. It's all important, and all welcome. Although preferably not in an angry email after you got suspended...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject:

I do agree with Golden Throat about what strategies the mods can enforce, but I think the solution to what angrypuppy is saying is much more simple/fundamental. Most of the time, when someone posts something like "Jimbo is an idiot." people start arguing and it may turn into an all out war with bans ensuing, but mostly 5-6 posts until people get pissed and cut it out, but that lowers the quality of the thread. I believe that people who post such generic mindless "accusations" of sorts, like "Kobe is a ballhog" or "Mike "no D" Antoni" don't really have anything intelligent to say and just want to participate in the conversation so of course the quality is lowered. On a sidenote, there's a ton of new posters around, at least that's what I saw during the season. My solution is simply to make an announcement regarding these posts, which are the cause of so much controversy, or rather pm every member, I'm against announcements as many, including me, don't read them out of boredom or whatever, that if someone posts some generic accusation, they should completely ignore it. Just ignore it, don't respond to it. For instance, I once got into an argument, nothing explosive, 5-6 posts until I figured he's clueless, about whether or not Jim Buss has ANY intelligence. Yeah, I was basically trying to argue that Jim Buss is not a complete retard. These kinds of arguments are obviously dropping the general quality, way more than one post by a poster, which few will read and they should ignore. This is, in my opinion the clear solution. No reason for the mods to be running around, hunting people like the police.


PS: Why don't you make a list in the User Feedback forum with all the banned members? That way addresses Wolfpacks point, that many posters are banned without anyone knowing.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject:

Quote:
2) We could delete posts of this nature and continue on as though nothing has happened, for the purpose of maintaining the quality of a thread.

Downside to this approach: There are a couple of different issues with this, although it seems simple enough.

What are the issues? This is what I'd do.

Quote:
3) Make an announcement to the board and punish the offenders swiftly and harshly to get the point across.

Downside to this approach: We get the JD accusations with how we do things now. This would actually give them validity.

That's a stretch and not my point. I've seen DB, and others make that sticky announcement a zillion times in my 11 years here. I've never had an issue with it. What I've had an issue with is when you start showcasing who was suspended and for how long, Almost as to poke fun and humiliate that poster. Some posters may deserve it, but majority do not. Maybe that's not the intention. However, I can say it comes across as such at times.

Phil Allen and I used to talk about this. We always felt that people responded better to positive interaction despite a suspension than a negative one. And I'm sure the current staff has these positive interactions with suspended posters as well.

The whole point of suspensions (And not bans) IMO is to make the poster realize what he did wrong and improve.

The type of poster I was 11 years ago vs the type of poster I am today, it's a significant difference. Not everyone comes to the board as eloquent as precise and as savvy as Larry Coon, Puppy etc. Some posters have a learning curve.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
2) We could delete posts of this nature and continue on as though nothing has happened, for the purpose of maintaining the quality of a thread.

Downside to this approach: There are a couple of different issues with this, although it seems simple enough.

What are the issues? This is what I'd do.

Quote:
3) Make an announcement to the board and punish the offenders swiftly and harshly to get the point across.

Downside to this approach: We get the JD accusations with how we do things now. This would actually give them validity.

That's a stretch and not my point. I've seen DB, and others make that sticky announcement a zillion times in my 11 years here. I've never had an issue with it. What I've had an issue with is when you start showcasing who was suspended and for how long, Almost as to poke fun and humiliate that poster. Some posters may deserve it, but majority do not. Maybe that's not the intention. However, I can say it comes across as such at times.

Phil Allen and I used to talk about this. We always felt that people responded better to positive interaction despite a suspension than a negative one. And I'm sure the current staff has these positive interactions with suspended posters as well.

The whole point of suspensions (And not bans) IMO is to make the poster realize what he did wrong and improve.

The type of poster I was 11 years ago vs the type of poster I am today, it's a significant difference. Not everyone comes to the board as eloquent as precise and as savvy as Larry Coon, Puppy etc. Some posters have a learning curve.


I explained them.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject:

George the Greek wrote:
I do agree with Golden Throat about what strategies the mods can enforce, but I think the solution to what angrypuppy is saying is much more simple/fundamental. Most of the time, when someone posts something like "Jimbo is an idiot." people start arguing and it may turn into an all out war with bans ensuing, but mostly 5-6 posts until people get pissed and cut it out, but that lowers the quality of the thread. I believe that people who post such generic mindless "accusations" of sorts, like "Kobe is a ballhog" or "Mike "no D" Antoni" don't really have anything intelligent to say and just want to participate in the conversation so of course the quality is lowered. On a sidenote, there's a ton of new posters around, at least that's what I saw during the season. My solution is simply to make an announcement regarding these posts, which are the cause of so much controversy, or rather pm every member, I'm against announcements as many, including me, don't read them out of boredom or whatever, that if someone posts some generic accusation, they should completely ignore it. Just ignore it, don't respond to it. For instance, I once got into an argument, nothing explosive, 5-6 posts until I figured he's clueless, about whether or not Jim Buss has ANY intelligence. Yeah, I was basically trying to argue that Jim Buss is not a complete retard. These kinds of arguments are obviously dropping the general quality, way more than one post by a poster, which few will read and they should ignore. This is, in my opinion the clear solution. No reason for the mods to be running around, hunting people like the police.


PS: Why don't you make a list in the User Feedback forum with all the banned members? That way addresses Wolfpacks point, that many posters are banned without anyone knowing.


I'll bring the point regarding how to elevate the overall conversation in the Mod Forum, but again, IMO there's going to be significant blowback on it. Making an announcement is useless unless there's some form of punishment that accompanies it. What do we do to the numerous people who post "MDA sucks" in so many words? Do we tell them that you can't do that unless it's accompanied with an explanation of why he sucks? Like I said, we already get accusations that people's opinions are censored if they're anti-MDA or anti-FO. This exacerbates that, and actually gives some credence to it, unless we're also deleting posts that say "MDA is awesome!" (insert whatever player/coach/FO you want into that sentence and the point still applies)

We keep track of who's been banned in the mod forum. I went back to the beginning of February, 6 months ago. If you don't count previously banned members and trolls (fans from other teams who talk crap, new posters who are very aggressive, or spammers), do you know how many regular posters have been banned in the last 6 months?

1) AllOneorNone (the artist formerly known as Trey)
2) SilverBullet

That's it. In 6 months, and both were given MANY chances, with a ton of PMs "behind the scenes" and there was nothing surreptitious about their bannings. I could go back further if this doesn't this doesn't prove the point. The idea that posters are banned behind the scenes just isn't true. Heck, we almost never ban anyone that's a regular poster, either publicly or privately. Two regular posters in the last 6 months. That's it.
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