***LAKERS -vs- Suns 11/16/12 Game Thread***
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LAL82412
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject:

lorain23 wrote:
andy adler is awkward as hell...she needs to find other work


She needs to eat a cheeseburger (or two) and get a chin-reduction.
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props
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter

Bernie Bickerstaff quips on his all-time small sample size Lakers coaching win % (3-1, .750): "I'll get a popsicle for that."
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6986/frontcourt.png

Last edited by JUST-MING on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LAL82412
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
iManArebel wrote:
Would like to see Kobe have easier looks, but cant deny it, dude carried it tonight.

Morris gave him a few hand grenades tonight. He took, by my count, 4 shots to beat the shot clock buzzer.


[comment removed]
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject:

LAL82412 wrote:
la4win wrote:
I like hearing Bernie. I'm going to miss him. The best winning percentage lakers coach


Any chance the Lakers build a Bernie statue outside of Staples?

After all, he does have the highest winning % of any coach in Lakers history.

THANK YOU BERNIE for an awesome job the past 4 games.


I approve of that
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject:

Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter

Bernie Bickerstaff quips on his all-time small sample size Lakers coaching win % (3-1, .750): "I'll get a popsicle for that."
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject:

KEVIN DING‏@KevinDing

Quote:
"Gonna have to give up something," Suns coach Alvin Gentry said about Gasol's early open shots and trying to stop the Lakers
.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject:

Forgot to do my Lakers Win Celebration.
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7480/pollm.png
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject:

Nash in lineup= easier shots (2)for KOBE.
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props
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7480/pollm.png

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject:

diando wrote:
Forgot to do my Lakers Win Celebration.


JUST got back from the Rose Garden - had to check the game thread to see who won. WE WIN! WE WINN!!!!!!!! WWOOOOOOOOTTTT!!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject:

TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
diando wrote:
Forgot to do my Lakers Win Celebration.


JUST got back from the Rose Garden - had to check the game thread to see who won. WE WIN! WE WINN!!!!!!!! WWOOOOOOOOTTTT!!!!!!!!




did the win top your night off?? lol
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject:

waat is ireland doing asking these dumb questions? and how many reporters do they have? 3?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7480/pollm.png


It's the rings that count more than anything.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject:

LAL82412 wrote:
props wrote:
Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter

Kobe will take over the early season scoring lead, for those that keep track this early, besting Harden by 2 pts tonight (they were tied).


Houston's starting backcourt = Osama Lin Harden


Just got back from watching Lin Harden get beat in overtime. Harden is the real deal, but their defense is not impressive, D12 will beat Asik, and they rely on Harden too much.

I think another Laker win is in store for us next game...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject:

Pidge wrote:
Quote:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7480/pollm.png

It's the rings that count more than anything.

http://twitpic.com/1ror0v
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject:

LAL82412 wrote:
lorain23 wrote:
andy adler is awkward as hell...she needs to find other work


She needs to eat a cheeseburger (or two) and get a chin-reduction.


Not everyone needs to look like a fat aunt jemima lookalike, son.

Btw, it's normal to not weigh over 200 pounds. Women aren't meant to look like lard-covered stay-puft marshmallow man knockoffs.


Last edited by Gwyn on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject:

Very good defense in the final quarter, that I'm very happy about. Can't wait to see the team three to four weeks from now when things are in place.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject:

Ruby wrote:
golaker wrote:
Ruby wrote:
dirka dirka wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Ruby wrote:
kobe back to being inefficient


i'm sure you're being sarcastic here...


Kobe was amazing tonight.


he was 10/24 fga


He's a shooting guard. Great game by kb


dont care. it's inefficient. knew his efficiency wouldnt last long.


If you take out the 3s (1-5) he was 9-19, 47.3%.

PPS 1.29. (Points Per Shot)

You're a little confused about what "efficient" is. Bail-out shots are effectively a sunk cost, because you can either get a turnover or you can have SOME chance of making points out of that possession.

Someone who gets rid of the ball won't hurt their FG%, but FG% is not what wins games. Points are.

Bynum wasn't an "efficient" player, he was assisted on 80% of his made shots. If you look at his shot charts they are pretty horrible -- basically if it's not a lob then it's a miss.

Pau usually avoids taking difficult shots. This LOOKS efficient, but the problem is, SOMEONE has to take the shot.

Players can improve their individual stats by EXTERNALIZING liabilities and foisting them on the team.

Individual stats can also be misleading based on WHO gets the easy shots.

Look at this breakdown of LeBron and Durant:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/06/16/lebron-and-kd-by-the-numbers/

LeBron, as you know, tends to get a high number of transition baskets and dunks, which pump up his FG%. He is NOT a great shooter.

Now compare Kobe's shooting LAST season with this season:

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Kobe-Bryant|977;year=201112;season=r

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Kobe-Bryant|977;year=201213;season=r

(phpBB has incorrect URL parsing; the above didn't work with the URL= tag either.)

(Note that these stats as of this moment have not been updated to include tonight's game.)

He's shooting IDENTICALLY (64%) from the restricted area, but the difference is, he's taking 39% of his shots from there this season vs. 16.9% last season.

This season, Kobe's midrange is 61% vs. 37% for LeBron. Yet LeBron shoots almost twice as often from midrange as Kobe (36% of the time vs. 20.6% of the time).

So if you want to make a claim of efficiency or inefficiency, you have to look at MORE than overall FG%.

WHY is the player taking the shot he is taking? Are they bad shots for that player? Are they forced into it? Is there a better shot available? Are they leaving the gimmes to their teammates?

Let's say the Heat make a new team rule that on the break, ANYONE but LeBron is allowed to dunk. What do you think will happen to his percentage if you take those away?

If you subtract out the transition dunks and give them to someone else, LeBron's FG% will nosedive, but he's having EXACTLY the same impact on the floor. The team is scoring the same points they would have scored anyway, on the same type and number of shots.

Let's say you had a Quantum Bynum in a superposition of Bynum states which collapses into a definite Bynum only when a shot is attempted. When there's a lob, Bynum 1 dunks it. All other shots are revealed to be a product of Bynum 2.

Bynum 1 is shooting somewhere around 100%, and Bynum 2 is shooting a lot closer to 0%. Is Quantum Bynum efficient or isn't it?

The impact is exactly the same regardless of which Bynum takes the shot.

Let's say the quarter is almost over and you are trying for a 2-for-1. There are 36 seconds left, so you want to shoot quickly in order to have another chance. Let's stipulate you can only get a bad shot, or no shot at all.

Which is more "efficient"? Well, if making the most of each possession is "efficient", then a BAD SHOT IS BETTER THAN NO SHOT AT ALL.

Yet this will hurt FG%. So you can see, FG% and "efficiency" are not the same thing.

In the previous loss, Kobe was 12-19. Yet 3 more points would have won the game. If he hit ONE 3 out of 16 more shots he'd finish 13-35 but get a W. (16 is the difference between the Spurs' 90 shot attempts and the Lakers' 74.)

13-35 would be only 37% shooting, but that was better than Pau (30%) and MWP (28.5%), not to mention Morris (0% on 0-5).

Let's stipulate for a moment that against the Spurs, a lot of shots will be tough, contested shots. You CAN'T get all gimmes against a good defense.

So let's say you can divvy up the good looks and the bad looks and hand them out to players. Are you better off giving the tough shots to Kobe and easy shots to MWP or vice-versa?

This will make Kobe's FG% look far worse than it was, yet it will help the TEAM's scoring.

Here are in-the-paint (excluding Restricted Area) and midrange percentages:

Kobe: 43% and 61%
Pau: 19% and 36%
MWP: 29% and 33%

Also, despite shooting about half as well from midrange as Kobe, Pau is shooting TWICE as often from there as Kobe (41.3% vs. 20.6%).

Pau is almost as good in the restricted area as Dwight (61% vs. 67%) but far worse in the paint OUTSIDE the RA (19% vs. 46%).

Would the team be better served to put Pau right under the basket, or Dwight?

Clearly, the TEAM's efficiency would improve.

Harden is another example. In his first 2 games, he tore it up, but then teams adjusted and his FG% tanked. He's shooting 44% this year vs. 49% last year. His game is predicated on getting whistles, as he gets almost TWICE as many FTs as LeBron (9.9 vs. 5.2) on almost the same number of shot attempts.

Last year, with KD around, Harden only shot midrange half as often.

But SOMEONE has to take those midrange shots. Obviously Harden would prefer to take every shot from the RA if he could. But you can't always get what you want.

So Harden's FG% is lower because he has to take a higher proportion of the more difficult shots.

But he's taking MORE shots from the RA and hitting them more often than last year, by percentages, and has more than DOUBLED it up by absolute numbers; Harden is taking 8.25 shots per game from the RA this year vs. 3.8 last year.

So he's getting WAY more high-percentage looks.

But he's taking almost 4 TIMES as many midrange shots per game.

Is he more or less efficient?

Once again, what you find is that there are ONLY so many good looks at the basket. The rest are going to be low-percentage shots, and the only question is WHO is going to take them.

Kobe is currently just HUMILIATING the other top players from midrange (61% vs. 46% for KD -- Kobe's midrange is AS GOOD AS KD'S under-the-basket shots).

But if you push Pau and MWP in closer to the basket, Kobe has to take more shots from outside the paint, which means his defender(s) have less of the floor to cover, which will make his percentage drop. BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING FOR THE TEAM.

Kobe would be INCREASING the team's efficiency by sacrificing his individual stats. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID WITH SHAQ.

A player is NOT LESS EFFICIENT when they are taking more of the difficult shots because teammates can't, won't, or would do even worse.

Part of Jordan's ADVANTAGE in playing without a dominant center was being able to operate closer to the basket all the time. This helped his individual stats.

Put Jordan on Shaq's team and what do you think happens? FG% dips. YET HE IS EXACTLY THE SAME PLAYER.

So in order to make an informed assessment, you have to look at the anatomy and context of EACH INDIVIDUAL SHOT.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:04 am    Post subject:

E=MC² wrote:
Very good defense in the final quarter, that I'm very happy about. Can't wait to see the team three to four weeks from now when things are in place.
No turnovers as well
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject:

Captain_Napalm wrote:
Ruby wrote:
golaker wrote:
Ruby wrote:
dirka dirka wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Ruby wrote:
kobe back to being inefficient


i'm sure you're being sarcastic here...


Kobe was amazing tonight.


he was 10/24 fga


He's a shooting guard. Great game by kb


dont care. it's inefficient. knew his efficiency wouldnt last long.


If you take out the 3s (1-5) he was 9-19, 47.3%.

PPS 1.29. (Points Per Shot)

You're a little confused about what "efficient" is. Bail-out shots are effectively a sunk cost, because you can either get a turnover or you can have SOME chance of making points out of that possession.

Someone who gets rid of the ball won't hurt their FG%, but FG% is not what wins games. Points are.

Bynum wasn't an "efficient" player, he was assisted on 80% of his made shots. If you look at his shot charts they are pretty horrible -- basically if it's not a lob then it's a miss.

Pau usually avoids taking difficult shots. This LOOKS efficient, but the problem is, SOMEONE has to take the shot.

Players can improve their individual stats by EXTERNALIZING liabilities and foisting them on the team.

Individual stats can also be misleading based on WHO gets the easy shots.

Look at this breakdown of LeBron and Durant:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/06/16/lebron-and-kd-by-the-numbers/

LeBron, as you know, tends to get a high number of transition baskets and dunks, which pump up his FG%. He is NOT a great shooter.

Now compare Kobe's shooting LAST season with this season:

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Kobe-Bryant|977;year=201112;season=r

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Kobe-Bryant|977;year=201213;season=r

(phpBB has incorrect URL parsing; the above didn't work with the URL= tag either.)

(Note that these stats as of this moment have not been updated to include tonight's game.)

He's shooting IDENTICALLY (64%) from the restricted area, but the difference is, he's taking 39% of his shots from there this season vs. 16.9% last season.

This season, Kobe's midrange is 61% vs. 37% for LeBron. Yet LeBron shoots almost twice as often from midrange as Kobe (36% of the time vs. 20.6% of the time).

So if you want to make a claim of efficiency or inefficiency, you have to look at MORE than overall FG%.

WHY is the player taking the shot he is taking? Are they bad shots for that player? Are they forced into it? Is there a better shot available? Are they leaving the gimmes to their teammates?

Let's say the Heat make a new team rule that on the break, ANYONE but LeBron is allowed to dunk. What do you think will happen to his percentage if you take those away?

If you subtract out the transition dunks and give them to someone else, LeBron's FG% will nosedive, but he's having EXACTLY the same impact on the floor. The team is scoring the same points they would have scored anyway, on the same type and number of shots.

Let's say you had a Quantum Bynum in a superposition of Bynum states which collapses into a definite Bynum only when a shot is attempted. When there's a lob, Bynum 1 dunks it. All other shots are revealed to be a product of Bynum 2.

Bynum 1 is shooting somewhere around 100%, and Bynum 2 is shooting a lot closer to 0%. Is Quantum Bynum efficient or isn't it?

The impact is exactly the same regardless of which Bynum takes the shot.

Let's say the quarter is almost over and you are trying for a 2-for-1. There are 36 seconds left, so you want to shoot quickly in order to have another chance. Let's stipulate you can only get a bad shot, or no shot at all.

Which is more "efficient"? Well, if making the most of each possession is "efficient", then a BAD SHOT IS BETTER THAN NO SHOT AT ALL.

Yet this will hurt FG%. So you can see, FG% and "efficiency" are not the same thing.

In the previous loss, Kobe was 12-19. Yet 3 more points would have won the game. If he hit ONE 3 out of 16 more shots he'd finish 13-35 but get a W. (16 is the difference between the Spurs' 90 shot attempts and the Lakers' 74.)

13-35 would be only 37% shooting, but that was better than Pau (30%) and MWP (28.5%), not to mention Morris (0% on 0-5).

Let's stipulate for a moment that against the Spurs, a lot of shots will be tough, contested shots. You CAN'T get all gimmes against a good defense.

So let's say you can divvy up the good looks and the bad looks and hand them out to players. Are you better off giving the tough shots to Kobe and easy shots to MWP or vice-versa?

This will make Kobe's FG% look far worse than it was, yet it will help the TEAM's scoring.

Here are in-the-paint (excluding Restricted Area) and midrange percentages:

Kobe: 43% and 61%
Pau: 19% and 36%
MWP: 29% and 33%

Also, despite shooting about half as well from midrange as Kobe, Pau is shooting TWICE as often from there as Kobe (41.3% vs. 20.6%).

Pau is almost as good in the restricted area as Dwight (61% vs. 67%) but far worse in the paint OUTSIDE the RA (19% vs. 46%).

Would the team be better served to put Pau right under the basket, or Dwight?

Clearly, the TEAM's efficiency would improve.

Harden is another example. In his first 2 games, he tore it up, but then teams adjusted and his FG% tanked. He's shooting 44% this year vs. 49% last year. His game is predicated on getting whistles, as he gets almost TWICE as many FTs as LeBron (9.9 vs. 5.2) on almost the same number of shot attempts.

Last year, with KD around, Harden only shot midrange half as often.

But SOMEONE has to take those midrange shots. Obviously Harden would prefer to take every shot from the RA if he could. But you can't always get what you want.

So Harden's FG% is lower because he has to take a higher proportion of the more difficult shots.

But he's taking MORE shots from the RA and hitting them more often than last year, by percentages, and has more than DOUBLED it up by absolute numbers; Harden is taking 8.25 shots per game from the RA this year vs. 3.8 last year.

So he's getting WAY more high-percentage looks.

But he's taking almost 4 TIMES as many midrange shots per game.

Is he more or less efficient?

Once again, what you find is that there are ONLY so many good looks at the basket. The rest are going to be low-percentage shots, and the only question is WHO is going to take them.

Kobe is currently just HUMILIATING the other top players from midrange (61% vs. 46% for KD -- Kobe's midrange is AS GOOD AS KD'S under-the-basket shots).

But if you push Pau and MWP in closer to the basket, Kobe has to take more shots from outside the paint, which means his defender(s) have less of the floor to cover, which will make his percentage drop. BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING FOR THE TEAM.

Kobe would be INCREASING the team's efficiency by sacrificing his individual stats. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID WITH SHAQ.

A player is NOT LESS EFFICIENT when they are taking more of the difficult shots because teammates can't, won't, or would do even worse.

Part of Jordan's ADVANTAGE in playing without a dominant center was being able to operate closer to the basket all the time. This helped his individual stats.

Put Jordan on Shaq's team and what do you think happens? FG% dips. YET HE IS EXACTLY THE SAME PLAYER.

So in order to make an informed assessment, you have to look at the anatomy and context of EACH INDIVIDUAL SHOT.


Wow, mind blown. Wish you could post this on a thread of your own
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject:

Cap Napalm - good write-up!! This is why stats are overrated unless you have context. A team takes what the defense gives. This is as good of an analysis on efficiency as I've read anywhere.

Quantum Bynum

When I watch at home I enjoy an occasional IPA with hops and malt in superposition, collapsing into a definite beer.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject:

kobemania3-16 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8lixjyBnELo#t=44s
nice w.
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