*** SPOILER ZONE ***Official Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire discussion thread (for BOOK readers)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:

People get touchy because even though you don't do such a thing, there are a LOT of people who just can't help themselves with spoilers. Even when not trying to overtly spoil a story, they'll drop hints here and there while being smarmy to boot. That's just as irritating.


It's why I'm glad there's a thread for those of us who actually read the books. Not to save the illiterate and lazy from spoilers but to save us from their whining. Reminds me of someone I knew who didn't want to know if the plot to kill Hitler succeeded in the movie Valkyrie or the spoilers to the LOTR trilogy. I consider there to be a big difference between spoiling something that just came out vs something that was adapted from a source that came out a long time ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:

People get touchy because even though you don't do such a thing, there are a LOT of people who just can't help themselves with spoilers. Even when not trying to overtly spoil a story, they'll drop hints here and there while being smarmy to boot. That's just as irritating.


It's why I'm glad there's a thread for those of us who actually read the books. Not to save the illiterate and lazy from spoilers but to save us from their whining. Reminds me of someone I knew who didn't want to know if the plot to kill Hitler succeeded in the movie Valkyrie or the spoilers to the LOTR trilogy. I consider there to be a big difference between spoiling something that just came out vs something that was adapted from a source that came out a long time ago.


What? There is a huge difference between someone spoiling esoteric literature and 10th grade history. How did your friend manage to avoid that little tidbit for so long?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:

People get touchy because even though you don't do such a thing, there are a LOT of people who just can't help themselves with spoilers. Even when not trying to overtly spoil a story, they'll drop hints here and there while being smarmy to boot. That's just as irritating.


It's why I'm glad there's a thread for those of us who actually read the books. Not to save the illiterate and lazy from spoilers but to save us from their whining. Reminds me of someone I knew who didn't want to know if the plot to kill Hitler succeeded in the movie Valkyrie or the spoilers to the LOTR trilogy. I consider there to be a big difference between spoiling something that just came out vs something that was adapted from a source that came out a long time ago.


What? There is a huge difference between someone spoiling esoteric literature and 10th grade history. How did your friend manage to avoid that little tidbit for so long?


He knew Hitler died. He didn't know how he died. Plus, a majority of the subject matter we had in school up to Honors World History was more ancient civilization based. For most of us, it was just picked up via History Channel or some other means. Granted, he wasn't the brightest kid either (he did go to $C).

May have been esoteric in the early 90-2000's, but once the show came out, there should've been a concerted effort by true fans to actually buy the books (and e-books) and read them so they don't lag behind. They aren't hard reads. While I read the first in 2007, I didn't get to the 3rd until after the first season came out. I didn't actually catch up until last year. The answers are already out there and readily available. Just open up a book (or tablet).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject:

TheJellosJigglin' wrote:

Oh man. Even though I didn't say any spoilers, just uttering the word "book" in that thread made some people get really touchy. I'll note that I did say that before this thread was started. But yeah, you're right. If you love the story and characters so much, and hate spoilers, why not read the books? Are people that allergic to reading in this digital age?


Indeed. It's not like there's no access to the books or it's some new thing. I remember there was a spoiler in the Captain America thread that I disliked. But that was only because the plot was spilled before the film ever came to the States. If it had been posted maybe 1-2 weeks after the film came out, or even on opening night, then I'm fine with it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:

People get touchy because even though you don't do such a thing, there are a LOT of people who just can't help themselves with spoilers. Even when not trying to overtly spoil a story, they'll drop hints here and there while being smarmy to boot. That's just as irritating.


It's why I'm glad there's a thread for those of us who actually read the books. Not to save the illiterate and lazy from spoilers but to save us from their whining. Reminds me of someone I knew who didn't want to know if the plot to kill Hitler succeeded in the movie Valkyrie or the spoilers to the LOTR trilogy. I consider there to be a big difference between spoiling something that just came out vs something that was adapted from a source that came out a long time ago.


What? There is a huge difference between someone spoiling esoteric literature and 10th grade history. How did your friend manage to avoid that little tidbit for so long?


He watched Inglorious Bastards.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:

People get touchy because even though you don't do such a thing, there are a LOT of people who just can't help themselves with spoilers. Even when not trying to overtly spoil a story, they'll drop hints here and there while being smarmy to boot. That's just as irritating.


It's why I'm glad there's a thread for those of us who actually read the books. Not to save the illiterate and lazy from spoilers but to save us from their whining. Reminds me of someone I knew who didn't want to know if the plot to kill Hitler succeeded in the movie Valkyrie or the spoilers to the LOTR trilogy. I consider there to be a big difference between spoiling something that just came out vs something that was adapted from a source that came out a long time ago.


What? There is a huge difference between someone spoiling esoteric literature and 10th grade history. How did your friend manage to avoid that little tidbit for so long?


He watched Inglorious Bastards.


Actually true but his mind was still nebulous beforehand.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:50 am    Post subject:

It's been a while since I've read the book, so the details are a bit blurry in my head, but to my recollection weren't Jaime's sexual advances towards Cersei in the Scept/Sceptor(Whatever it's called) consensual ? Whereas in the TV adaptation it made it seem like borderline rape or rape. It's just a small observation I made watching the most recent episode. They've tried really hard in the show to make Jaime likeable or at least slightly redeemable compared to the earlier seasons and/or the scumbag he is in the books that it just seemed weird to paint him back into a negative light.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:08 am    Post subject:

aachan wrote:
It's been a while since I've read the book, so the details are a bit blurry in my head, but to my recollection weren't Jaime's sexual advances towards Cersei in the Scept/Sceptor(Whatever it's called) consensual ? Whereas in the TV adaptation it made it seem like borderline sexual assault or sexual assault. It's just a small observation I made watching the most recent episode. They've tried really hard in the show to make Jaime likeable or at least slightly redeemable compared to the earlier seasons and/or the scumbag he is in the books that it just seemed weird to paint him back into a negative light.


Sexual assault? That was rape straight up. Seems the showrunners made that clear.

I also don't think he ever forced her in the book then or at any point, but I can't remember 100%. But remember he did so much to prevent Brienne from being raped in both the book and show. So looks like a Big Divergence.

In the book, she does reject him after he comes back for being without an arm and being a nicer honorable guy. He then starts looking at Cersei in a new light gradually, learns she's sleeping with that cousin or whatever. I recall him being hurt but kind of over it.

He did throw a kid out of a window so he was always at best a complex mix of scum and hero. But it is an interesting decision by the TV guys. Why choose to insert that? What does it mean for viewers seeing both Cersei and him. Is Cersei more sympathetic now, with her son just dying and no one caring and then being raped? Is Jamie at the core a doomed character, justifying whatever he does? Maybe he is basically like the Hound.


Last edited by focus on Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:41 am    Post subject:

The specific scene in the books is not presented as rape. At least not as clearly. She says no at first but only because she doesn't want to get caught by anyone. After they finish, she says something along the lines of "we need to be more careful with father in the area now." Iirc, she even tells him to "do me" after he kisses her a few times

A few of the sex scenes with Cersei and Jaime begin with her saying no byt, as Jaime said, (paraphrase) "she never came to me. She waited, but I had to ask."
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
The specific scene in the books is not presented as sexual assault. At least not as clearly. She says no at first but only because she doesn't want to get caught by anyone. After they finish, she says something along the lines of "we need to be more careful with father in the area now." Iirc, she even tells him to "do me" after he kisses her a few times

A few of the sex scenes with Cersei and Jaime begin with her saying no byt, as Jaime said, (paraphrase) "she never came to me. She waited, but I had to ask."


I dug out the part in A Storm Of Swords and it seemed to me at least that Cersei initiated the consensual sex by kissing Jaime first. Nothing before or after even remotely indicates that she was being forced in any way.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
The specific scene in the books is not presented as sexual assault. At least not as clearly. She says no at first but only because she doesn't want to get caught by anyone. After they finish, she says something along the lines of "we need to be more careful with father in the area now." Iirc, she even tells him to "do me" after he kisses her a few times

A few of the sex scenes with Cersei and Jaime begin with her saying no byt, as Jaime said, (paraphrase) "she never came to me. She waited, but I had to ask."


I dug out the part in A Storm Of Swords and it seemed to me at least that Cersei initiated the consensual sex by kissing Jaime first. Nothing before or after even remotely indicates that she was being forced in any way.


So then the TV people are intentionally diverging from the book to make Jamie a worse character than in the book. Interesting to see what the consequences will be.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
The specific scene in the books is not presented as sexual assault. At least not as clearly. She says no at first but only because she doesn't want to get caught by anyone. After they finish, she says something along the lines of "we need to be more careful with father in the area now." Iirc, she even tells him to "do me" after he kisses her a few times

A few of the sex scenes with Cersei and Jaime begin with her saying no byt, as Jaime said, (paraphrase) "she never came to me. She waited, but I had to ask."


I dug out the part in A Storm Of Swords and it seemed to me at least that Cersei initiated the consensual sex by kissing Jaime first. Nothing before or after even remotely indicates that she was being forced in any way.


IIRC she says no at first because they could get caught and because her dead son is laying 5 feet away. Also I remember her mentioning her "moon blood" as this was going to be sort of a soiled encounter. She was never assaulted. HBO has disappointed me this season with the liberties they have taken with their interpretation of the book. Also Oberyn Martell seems to be screwing something everytime they show his face. In the book Oberyn was more interested in revenge than sex.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:36 pm    Post subject:

Any thoughts on tonights show fellas? Some whoa changes. Damn...great episode. For once, I'm feeling on edge.

GJ to the showrunners.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject:

I have no idea whats going on now, and i kinda like it.

although I still want Coldhands in the show (but I doubt it now)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:53 pm    Post subject:

I wonder if they will have Bran and Jon reconnect.

I wonder when Lady Stoneheart returns. I guess either Episode 9 or last scene of Episode 10
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
I wonder if they will have Bran and Jon reconnect.

I wonder when Lady Stoneheart returns. I guess either Episode 9 or last scene of Episode 10


I really, REALLY want that to happen. Throw the audience something!

As far as Lady Stoneheart? If she doesn't show...great. Honestly, it was kind of an irrelevant story arc in the books for me.
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Looking forward to Oberyn's fight with the Mountain.

jonnybravo wrote:

As far as Lady Stoneheart? If she doesn't show...great. Honestly, it was kind of an irrelevant story arc in the books for me.


Agreed. Always felt the whole thing as a square peg in a round hole.
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject:

I completely forgot guys, did the TV trial happen int he book?
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
I completely forgot guys, did the TV trial happen int he book?


More or less. I don't recall Meryn Trant speaking but I do remember Shae and Pycelle. I didn't see Oberyn's visit with Tyrion in his cell, the one where he agrees to be Tyrion's champion because he senses a chance to get revenge on Gregor. The show's writers better not do something stupid like having Jaime fight Gregor.
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
I completely forgot guys, did the TV trial happen int he book?


More or less. I don't recall Meryn Trant speaking but I do remember Shae and Pycelle. I didn't see Oberyn's visit with Tyrion in his cell, the one where he agrees to be Tyrion's champion because he senses a chance to get revenge on Gregor. The show's writers better not do something stupid like having Jaime fight Gregor.


I doubt they're going to go that route.

Gota say, I'm going to miss Oberyn if he goes out. Really like the character and the actor who plays him.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:35 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
I completely forgot guys, did the TV trial happen int he book?


More or less. I don't recall Meryn Trant speaking but I do remember Shae and Pycelle. I didn't see Oberyn's visit with Tyrion in his cell, the one where he agrees to be Tyrion's champion because he senses a chance to get revenge on Gregor. The show's writers better not do something stupid like having Jaime fight Gregor.


I doubt they're going to go that route.

Gota say, I'm going to miss Oberyn if he goes out. Really like the character and the actor who plays him.


In the books, I don't remember Shae speaking at the trial and thus revealing her massive betrayal, but (and any nonbook readers you better stop here for sure spoiler alert reminder) her betrayal laid bare when Tyrion finds her later on in Tywin's bed and in a rage decides to kill her before encountering Tywin. Maybe she testified in a more under duress way that he could forgive. Does Shae go more easy on him in the book trial? Because I remember his hatred for her all at once in Tywin's bedroom. And that scene should be fantastic coming up. I wonder if Jamie and Tyrion have it out like they do in the book.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:44 am    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
I completely forgot guys, did the TV trial happen int he book?


More or less. I don't recall Meryn Trant speaking but I do remember Shae and Pycelle. I didn't see Oberyn's visit with Tyrion in his cell, the one where he agrees to be Tyrion's champion because he senses a chance to get revenge on Gregor. The show's writers better not do something stupid like having Jaime fight Gregor.


I'm almost positive that they're going to have Oberyn fight The Mountain, pretty sure I saw it in the season previews and also, the title of the episode is pretty telling, Episode 08 is titled 'The Mountain and The Viper'. So I guess book readers can pretty much guess what's going to happen there. Oberyn volunteering to be Tyrion's champion should happen in the next episode.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject:

aachan wrote:
rwongega wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
I completely forgot guys, did the TV trial happen int he book?


More or less. I don't recall Meryn Trant speaking but I do remember Shae and Pycelle. I didn't see Oberyn's visit with Tyrion in his cell, the one where he agrees to be Tyrion's champion because he senses a chance to get revenge on Gregor. The show's writers better not do something stupid like having Jaime fight Gregor.


I'm almost positive that they're going to have Oberyn fight The Mountain, pretty sure I saw it in the season previews and also, the title of the episode is pretty telling, Episode 08 is titled 'The Mountain and The Viper'. So I guess book readers can pretty much guess what's going to happen there. Oberyn volunteering to be Tyrion's champion should happen in the next episode.


That was my thought as well (didn't catch the season previews) but I was caught off guard by some just wayward and delusional comments in the main thread added with the fact that they never showed the meeting between Oberyn and Tyrion, just Jaime. After the "rape" fiasco, I felt the producers thought they had a carte blanche to do whatever they want with the stories.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject:

I'm curious how they are going to play Tywin's scene when he gets his due, and will it involve a bowel movement??
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject:

DonMagicWand wrote:
I'm curious how they are going to play Tywin's scene when he gets his due, and will it involve a bowel movement??


One of my favorite scenes in the books - I can't wait to see Tyrion blow up on Jaime, strangle Shea (they better have her in Twyin's bed all nakey like) and kill Tywin
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