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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:54 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just watching the Heat/Pacers/Spurs/Grizz, it's almost impossible today to get away with having no jump shot if you're a perimeter player. Just look at Tony Allen/Prince, and how the Spurs just packed it in.

Look at guys like DJ Augustin/Young who were so scared to shoot yesterday.


But then you watch Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard who developed a jumpshot behind the arc in a catch/shoot situation for San Antonio.

Parker, Ginobili, Duncan are the shot creators drawing defensive attention. Leonard and Green are killing teams with defense and 3pt. shooting.


Right. True, Leonard was def not a 3 point shooter in college. But then again, Spurs also have the best shooting coach IMO.

Green/Leonard are not afraid to shoot. Maybe that's what I'm getting at, the tentativeness will kill you in games that actually matter.

Augustin/Young looked scared out there last night and it hurt the Pacers.


Shooting is the easiest to learn. Athletic abilities, defensive instinctiveness, motor... can't teach.


you can train motor, if you are willing to.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just watching the Heat/Pacers/Spurs/Grizz, it's almost impossible today to get away with having no jump shot if you're a perimeter player. Just look at Tony Allen/Prince, and how the Spurs just packed it in.

Look at guys like DJ Augustin/Young who were so scared to shoot yesterday.


But then you watch Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard who developed a jumpshot behind the arc in a catch/shoot situation for San Antonio.

Parker, Ginobili, Duncan are the shot creators drawing defensive attention. Leonard and Green are killing teams with defense and 3pt. shooting.


Right. True, Leonard was def not a 3 point shooter in college. But then again, Spurs also have the best shooting coach IMO.

Green/Leonard are not afraid to shoot. Maybe that's what I'm getting at, the tentativeness will kill you in games that actually matter.

Augustin/Young looked scared out there last night and it hurt the Pacers.


Shooting is the easiest to learn. Athletic abilities, defensive instinctiveness, motor... can't teach.


you can train motor, if you are willing to.


LOL .. right, see Lamar Odom
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject:

Mike, i just dont know. i have a funny feeling about Victor Oladipo.

i see that reeeeeeediculous quickness and explosion.


i know this is just a little workout. but you can see it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk4XNbRYhKA
^^look at how quick the crossover is.

now watch Trey Burke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-VBf-esdI

solid handles, but the handles are not nearly as quick. even though we both know you can trust burke more with the ball then victor. but if victor is willing to be taught a thing or two once he gets to the big leagues. he could surpass burke quickly. Victor's quick cross reminds of westbrooks. doesnt have a thousand dribble moves but the 2 he does have are so quick/explosive that they are devasting moves.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
Mike, i just dont know. i have a funny feeling about Victor Oladipo.

i see that reeeeeeediculous quickness and explosion.


i know this is just a little workout. but you can see it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk4XNbRYhKA
^^look at how quick the crossover is.

now watch Trey Burke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-VBf-esdI

solid handles, but the handles are not nearly as quick. even though we both know you can trust burke more with the ball then victor. but if victor is willing to be taught a thing or two once he gets to the big leagues. he could surpass burke quickly. Victor's quick cross reminds of westbrooks. doesnt have a thousand dribble moves but the 2 he does have are so quick/explosive that they are devasting moves.


But in gametime situations, he's not comfortable with that crossover. Advanced NBA players utilize combinations of crossover/hesitation, crossover, in-and-out, etc. Oladipo didn't even blow by defenders on his first step, and backed up to get a running start on his defender. You want the opposite in the NBA; first step to get past first defender, ball-handling to freeze/pass 2nd defender to the cup.

McCollum does this best. Oladipo doesn't have Westbrook's handle. UCLA ran double PG, but Oladipo doesn't create well off the dribble. He's a spot up shooter and great off-ball finisher, which is exactly why his FG% are so high.

Guys who just have 1 crossover don't get that far in the NBA. That's why Deron Williams looks normal now, and why VC couldn't hang with the wlite SGs/SFs getting to the cup, in contrast to McGrady.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject:

Trey Burke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqhtnEvjsf8
1:46, 1:52, 2:02, 2:10 against Oladipo, 2:16, 2:27, etc.

5:57

That's what it looks like when a PG is "under control." Gets past first defender. Reassesses situation. Makes decision to pass or shoot. The key is the screen; especially in Steve Nash's or CP3s case, but once the defender is on the hip, there is a moment of freeze to make the next decision based on what the defensive gives them. High assists. Low TO. Lillard does the same thing, just quicker.


Victor Oladipo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgWJGiJJAwk
1:08, blow by drive right, 1:15 stutter step, 3:23 left drive, 3:34 there's your quick crossover, contested layup. 3:44 running start. 3:51, running start, crossover. 4:00 running start. 4:06 Dribble combination, contested. 4:15 backs up, running start, crossover. 4:22 running start, crossover.

10:33
8% Iso
28.6% TO in Iso situations. Drives right repeatedly. E.g., predictable drive, predictable moves, using athleticism over ball-handling to get to basket. 10:46 running start, crossover. 10:54 running start. 11:07 running start. 11:12 Uses screen, doesn't change direction, 11:17 running start. 11:27. 11:36

I think you see the trend here.

This is the difference between basketball IQ, playmaking PG with multiple skills, quickness, and shot variations in contrast to a non-playmaking SG that has issues creating his own shot despite being an elite level athlete with great size and wingspan.

Guess who'll get hurt most?

Guess who isn't comfortable handling a basketball with a defender directly in front of him?

Guess which skills are most difficult to refine?

And that's why Oladipo isn't #1. Bryant gets the ball and creates space before the dribble with his jabstep. His jabstep is even more effective because of his multiple change-direction combination dribbles. Oladipo doesn't have that jabstep. No defender would respect it. That's why he backs up.

11:44.


Beloved Russell Westbrook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhsIbXBI2Tk
0.26 crossover, hesitation. 0.30 crossover, pull up. Lots of drive right, then spin move. Still 2 changes of direction.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
Mike, i just dont know. i have a funny feeling about Victor Oladipo.

i see that reeeeeeediculous quickness and explosion.


i know this is just a little workout. but you can see it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk4XNbRYhKA
^^look at how quick the crossover is.

now watch Trey Burke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-VBf-esdI

solid handles, but the handles are not nearly as quick. even though we both know you can trust burke more with the ball then victor. but if victor is willing to be taught a thing or two once he gets to the big leagues. he could surpass burke quickly. Victor's quick cross reminds of westbrooks. doesnt have a thousand dribble moves but the 2 he does have are so quick/explosive that they are devasting moves.


But in gametime situations, he's not comfortable with that crossover. Advanced NBA players utilize combinations of crossover/hesitation, crossover, in-and-out, etc. Oladipo didn't even blow by defenders on his first step, and backed up to get a running start on his defender. You want the opposite in the NBA; first step to get past first defender, ball-handling to freeze/pass 2nd defender to the cup.

McCollum does this best. Oladipo doesn't have Westbrook's handle. UCLA ran double PG, but Oladipo doesn't create well off the dribble. He's a spot up shooter and great off-ball finisher, which is exactly why his FG% are so high.

Guys who just have 1 crossover don't get that far in the NBA. That's why Deron Williams looks normal now, and why VC couldn't hang with the wlite SGs/SFs getting to the cup, in contrast to McGrady.
now i agree he didnt do this "in game" but westbrook did not really show he had handles liek he does in a nba uni until he got to the pros. he had basic dribbles. nothing special. most of his drives were in a straight line. he showed his explosiveness in the open court or with a nice b-line to the basket. but that was about all west really showed back then in a UCLA Uni. similar to this guy. if he can figure it out soon enough. that quickness is incredible mike. you have to admit that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Trey Burke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqhtnEvjsf8
1:46, 1:52, 2:02, 2:10 against Oladipo, 2:16, 2:27, etc.

5:57

That's what it looks like when a PG is "under control." Gets past first defender. Reassesses situation. Makes decision to pass or shoot. The key is the screen; especially in Steve Nash's or CP3s case, but once the defender is on the hip, there is a moment of freeze to make the next decision based on what the defensive gives them. High assists. Low TO. Lillard does the same thing, just quicker.


Victor Oladipo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgWJGiJJAwk
1:08, blow by drive right, 1:15 stutter step, 3:23 left drive, 3:34 there's your quick crossover, contested layup. 3:44 running start. 3:51, running start, crossover. 4:00 running start. 4:06 Dribble combination, contested. 4:15 backs up, running start, crossover. 4:22 running start, crossover.

10:33
8% Iso
28.6% TO in Iso situations. Drives right repeatedly. E.g., predictable drive, predictable moves, using athleticism over ball-handling to get to basket. 10:46 running start, crossover. 10:54 running start. 11:07 running start. 11:12 Uses screen, doesn't change direction, 11:17 running start. 11:27. 11:36

I think you see the trend here.

This is the difference between basketball IQ, playmaking PG with multiple skills, quickness, and shot variations in contrast to a non-playmaking SG that has issues creating his own shot despite being an elite level athlete with great size and wingspan.

Guess who'll get hurt most?

Guess who isn't comfortable handling a basketball with a defender directly in front of him?

Guess which skills are most difficult to refine?

And that's why Oladipo isn't #1. Bryant gets the ball and creates space before the dribble with his jabstep. His jabstep is even more effective because of his multiple change-direction combination dribbles. Oladipo doesn't have that jabstep. No defender would respect it. That's why he backs up.

11:44.


Beloved Russell Westbrook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhsIbXBI2Tk
0.26 crossover, hesitation. 0.30 crossover, pull up. Lots of drive right, then spin move. Still 2 changes of direction.
i agree with the basic assessment. so are you telling me Vic cant get a jab step move? come on mike. thats not that hard. he has the tools. if the guy didnt have handles and was all hops and speed we wouldnt even have this discussion. he has the tools to be very very good. tools not just being athletic ability. the only way you're quick with the ball dribbling left to right is if you know how to dribble well. sure pressure de can make you look real bad , real quick. but once you get use to it. skys the limit.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
now i agree he didnt do this "in game" but westbrook did not really show he had handles liek he does in a nba uni until he got to the pros. he had basic dribbles. nothing special. most of his drives were in a straight line. he showed his explosiveness in the open court or with a nice b-line to the basket. but that was about all west really showed back then in a UCLA Uni. similar to this guy. if he can figure it out soon enough. that quickness is incredible mike. you have to admit that.


Disagree with that as well. Westbrook didn't have as much opportunity because Collison was under control, so he was the lead PG. They ran Howland's system, but that didn't stop Westbrook from entering into the league as a PG.

This isn't like Stephen Curry, where Curry was developing ball-handling and was defacto PG in late game situations for Davidson.

I know the quickness is incredible, but even from NCAA level to NBA level, there's a large jump. It's exactly why most players aren't ready.

You want to talk about Quickness and multiple change of direction out the gate, it was Lillard and Irving. Oladipo can't do what they do, even with quickness. I don't even think he's that quick, as opposed to just being really fast.

Why do you think he needs a running start so bad? He struggles with first step. He struggles to protect the basketball. He struggles with left hand ball-handling. Westbrook doesn't have that problem.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
i agree with the basic assessment. so are you telling me Vic cant get a jab step move? come on mike. thats not that hard. he has the tools. if the guy didnt have handles and was all hops and speed we wouldnt even have this discussion. he has the tools to be very very good. tools not just being athletic ability. the only way you're quick with the ball dribbling left to right is if you know how to dribble well. sure pressure de can make you look real bad , real quick. but once you get use to it. skys the limit.


I'm saying no one would respect Oladipo's jab step because he has a weak left hand and often backs up to size up his defender and gain speed on him.

Quickness is greater than speed on the NBA floor.

He has right hand dribbling ability and that's it, but you seem so convinced that it's just so easy to develop change of direction moves; something Darius Morris, Derek Fisher, Corey Maggette, and Devean George all tried to work on but NEVER had it at the NBA level.

This isn't even about pressure D making him look bad. This is halfcourt defense predicting his drives, not trapping him at will.

This is exactly why I keep saying ball-handling is the most difficult skill to master at the NBA level. It has to be so refined just to keep TOs down. Lamar Odom couldn't even exploit a lead dribble with his right hand, even when he has PG ball-handling ability and could change direction multiple times. Did he do that well? No. He drew lots of charges when he decided to attack the hoop.

Now, I always hold out that a player can improve anything, but that doesn't mean the percentages are in their favor, kind of like ESPN scouts and analysts somewhat laughing at Katin Reinhardt's ability to become a PG for USC, when he's never shown the court vision to do so. At least he did work on ball-handling at the HS level, but only to create spacing for a shot, not to draw in defenses at attack angles and set someone else up.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject:

What point guard handles look like at the elite HS level.

http://youtu.be/QT9eKU8Q4XA
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject:

What Oladipo can't do against his own comp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH8stctEEYQ
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
What Oladipo can't do against his own comp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH8stctEEYQ
nice handles. but not nice enough to prove your point. this guy's handles are not actually creating space for himself. he still has to shoot over his defenders. he created space on mostly unathletic guys. notice that? the other guys didnt bite on the crossover(which was quick but very predictable). he's a young guy so he can easily work on this and become a real problem.

the guy you should've posted was the guy in your original list. the one that is more or less CUrry from Lehigh. but most guys in the nba dont have handles like that. lebron is beasting the nba and he doesnt have the handles of the guy from Lehigh or curry. or the footwork. now granted bron could always and would go left. which i agree will be an issue for Vic going to his off hand. but again that can be learned. the workout video i showed he had enough of a handle with either hand to improve as a non PG. he doesnt need PG handles to beast at the nba level. a super quick cross over or inside out dribble, throw in a little spin at the right time and thats all you need. IF your foot work is right. and you have a good enough jumper(something he can surely work on).

i'm not saying he has it now. i think he has enough of the tools to become a lot better at his dribbling then you say he probably can be. and thats even with dribbling being a tough area for most guys, when it comes to "ELITE" handles.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
What point guard handles look like at the elite HS level.

http://youtu.be/QT9eKU8Q4XA
again, great handles. but most nba players dont have handles as good as this HS kid. you dont have to. its not necessary. not even if you're a pg. you need food work, change of speed(quicks). slow fast, slow fast. thats more then enough to create a long successful nba career.

the elite level dribbling is for guys that really want to make the defense look silly..cp3, dwill, drose, etc. we can go back to a healthy baron davis. still to me one of the coldest handlers i've seen. one of the few that can do AND 1 mixtape dribbles during nba games..LEGALLY and make people look silly trying to guard him. but do it for a reason. to get to the basket, create space for a shot or setup an assist.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just watching the Heat/Pacers/Spurs/Grizz, it's almost impossible today to get away with having no jump shot if you're a perimeter player. Just look at Tony Allen/Prince, and how the Spurs just packed it in.

Look at guys like DJ Augustin/Young who were so scared to shoot yesterday.


But then you watch Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard who developed a jumpshot behind the arc in a catch/shoot situation for San Antonio.

Parker, Ginobili, Duncan are the shot creators drawing defensive attention. Leonard and Green are killing teams with defense and 3pt. shooting.


Would be nice if the lakers took thst approach with morris. Make him into a green.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject:

iggypop123 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just watching the Heat/Pacers/Spurs/Grizz, it's almost impossible today to get away with having no jump shot if you're a perimeter player. Just look at Tony Allen/Prince, and how the Spurs just packed it in.

Look at guys like DJ Augustin/Young who were so scared to shoot yesterday.


But then you watch Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard who developed a jumpshot behind the arc in a catch/shoot situation for San Antonio.

Parker, Ginobili, Duncan are the shot creators drawing defensive attention. Leonard and Green are killing teams with defense and 3pt. shooting.


Would be nice if the lakers took thst approach with morris. Make him into a green.


They already did. What did he do all year? Play defense. Shoot 3s.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
What point guard handles look like at the elite HS level.

http://youtu.be/QT9eKU8Q4XA
again, great handles. but most nba players dont have handles as good as this HS kid. you dont have to. its not necessary. not even if you're a pg. you need food work, change of speed(quicks). slow fast, slow fast. thats more then enough to create a long successful nba career.

the elite level dribbling is for guys that really want to make the defense look silly..cp3, dwill, drose, etc. we can go back to a healthy baron davis. still to me one of the coldest handlers i've seen. one of the few that can do AND 1 mixtape dribbles during nba games..LEGALLY and make people look silly trying to guard him. but do it for a reason. to get to the basket, create space for a shot or setup an assist.


I'm done with this argument about handles. I show you a guy who clearly has better handles than Oladipo and you respond, clearly not good enough in a one on one situation. Well, if it's not good enough, then how is Oladipo's?

As for Semaj, LOTS of NBA players have that level of ball-handling, right down to some SFs. But if Oladipo can't do that, then how in the world can he be expected to develop it at the NBA Level?

At NBA practices/workouts, there are Centers that look like they have PG level ball-handling because they go end-to-end with crossovers and behind the back. Shaq did it. Gasol could do it now. Blake Griffin. Even Oden showed it during his workouts. They NEVER do it at the NBA level, because NBA defenses are good enough to exploit it.

Oladipo showing quick crossovers in a workout tells me nothing unless he shows it in gametime. Against NCAA defenders, he can't go left, he doesn't change direction twice, and NBA defenders are that much tougher, and, your trying to convince me that his crossover is so quick that he'll be able to cross people like Westbrook at the NBA level?

Westbrook had the ability to do that at the HS level. He just never had to. Oladipo has to, but can't do it. That's the difference. Otherwise this is a different draft and Oladipo stands out as a #1 pick.

This is also why it's a role player's draft. Noel, McLemore, Len, Bennett all play like elite athletes but not elite shot creators, while the "average" athletes are better shot creators. Which would you choose?

This also makes it the most obvious of why I like Dennis Schroeder so much. He has the skill level, wingspan, AND quickness all combined. McLemore? No. Oladipo? No. Porter? No. CJ McCollum? Trey Burke? Yes.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
the workout video i showed he had enough of a handle with either hand to improve as a non PG. he doesnt need PG handles to beast at the nba level. a super quick cross over or inside out dribble, throw in a little spin at the right time and thats all you need.


No it's not. You remember Vince Carter? He didn't develop his ball-handling, and even when his athleticism slipped a bit, he needed ball-handling to get to the hoop.

He didn't. It's that difficult. Less time in the paint. More jumpshots. More crashing over defenses because the defenses were in front of him, not beside him like McGrady.

This is the modern NBA. There are elite SFs/SGs with PG ball=handling ability. Stephenson and George are just barely proving it against LeBron, who himself has great ball-handling ability. We don't need to mention their elite athleticism. We don't need to mention Kobe, who had it as a 16 year old, before the NBA. We don't need to mention Durant, who only has 1 crossover and then he still pulls up for a jumpshot. James Harden. Ginobili. Curry. Ellis. Wade. Rudy Gay. Tyreke Evans.

But, all of them can work opposite hand. Oladipo can't. I've yet to see a player go from SF/SG and then start at PG because his ball-handling improved that much. I've yet to see a role player with average handles at best, become some prolific scorer. Even then it doesn't look great, unless you love John Salmons working in Iso that much.

When it comes to ball-handling at the NBA level, you pretty much have it or you don't. Otherwise we would've had Rick Fox initiate the triangle for the Lakers in the 2000s, not Kobe Bryant, and spare Kobe's legs. Right?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject:

Reedited draft list. Siva flying up the chart in workouts, and I think it's real. Improving jumpshot though a bit flat.

Phil Pressey coming down to earth against his own competition. Decision-making and confidence have been issues.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Reedited draft list. Siva flying up the chart in workouts, and I think it's real. Improving jumpshot though a bit flat.

Phil Pressey coming down to earth against his own competition. Decision-making and confidence have been issues.


Bah, I shouldn't have said anything.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
the workout video i showed he had enough of a handle with either hand to improve as a non PG. he doesnt need PG handles to beast at the nba level. a super quick cross over or inside out dribble, throw in a little spin at the right time and thats all you need.


No it's not. You remember Vince Carter? He didn't develop his ball-handling, and even when his athleticism slipped a bit, he needed ball-handling to get to the hoop.

He didn't. It's that difficult. Less time in the paint. More jumpshots. More crashing over defenses because the defenses were in front of him, not beside him like McGrady.

This is the modern NBA. There are elite SFs/SGs with PG ball=handling ability. Stephenson and George are just barely proving it against LeBron, who himself has great ball-handling ability. We don't need to mention their elite athleticism. We don't need to mention Kobe, who had it as a 16 year old, before the NBA. We don't need to mention Durant, who only has 1 crossover and then he still pulls up for a jumpshot. James Harden. Ginobili. Curry. Ellis. Wade. Rudy Gay. Tyreke Evans.

But, all of them can work opposite hand. Oladipo can't. I've yet to see a player go from SF/SG and then start at PG because his ball-handling improved that much. I've yet to see a role player with average handles at best, become some prolific scorer. Even then it doesn't look great, unless you love John Salmons working in Iso that much.

When it comes to ball-handling at the NBA level, you pretty much have it or you don't. Otherwise we would've had Rick Fox initiate the triangle for the Lakers in the 2000s, not Kobe Bryant, and spare Kobe's legs. Right?
wait a second are you trying to tell me VC didnt develop his ball handling from say his tar heel days til the pros? uhhh, not true at all mike.

again you are trying to give wing guys PG handles. its not necessary. sure it would be great if they had that. but not many guys do. shoot JORDAN didnt have PG handles. kobe is one of a very small batch of SG's that actually had what i would call Pg-esk handles and real Shakes.

gino has em, crawford has that wicked crossover and a very nice wrap around the back.

joe johnson can handle the rock well. but he doesnt do a lot with those handles but make it look pretty.

and i dont count short shooting guards in the list of shooting guards. guys that are 6'4 or less playing sg because they are not that great at setting up others so they get moved to sg. when in reality they've played the pg spot most if not all of their lives due to height. those guys dont count. we're talking about 6'5+ SG, SF guys. you dont need PG handles to survive and do very well in the nba.

vince with good enough handles to beat a couple of guys off the dribble in one play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68YDyk0gPB0

splits the double and you know what happens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XkH2wxlUlzY#t=159s

its not about extreme handles. its about footwork and knowing when to attack which defender and where to start your attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XkH2wxlUlzY#t=185s

^^nothing special in the handles dept. but he blows by his man.

watch the entire video . i chose this one because this is old man dallas vince. showing you. footwork and knowing how to attack a defender is needed more so then handles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XkH2wxlUlzY#t=185s
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject:

I'm surprised that Archie Goodwin is currently projected in the 2nd round at draft express and nbadraft. Just by his potential alone and physical abilities I would easily draft him in the mid to late first round.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject:

hellsling wrote:
I'm surprised that Archie Goodwin is currently projected in the 2nd round at draft express and nbadraft. Just by his potential alone and physical abilities I would easily draft him in the mid to late first round.


The draft is so deep, that the "midrange talent" extends into the 2nd round.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject:

VC never had the ball-handling to get to the basket without absolutely relying on his athleticism to get to the basket.

And yet, you want to compare Oladipo's ball-handling improving to Westbrook's level.

And you wonder why I'm relating SGs to SFs with PG ball-handling.

I don't see the connection at all.


VC never had much outside of an in-and-out dribble, spin move, and some footwork. No wonder why he kept getting pounded at the rim.

And, I disagree about MJ having PG handles. When a player is leading the team in assists that much, over the real PG, then I don't see how it's any different than Kobe's ball-handling.

But, even Kobe couldn't hack playing backup PG to NVE. Turnover prone.

You want me to watch VC videos of him driving left and exploding to the hoop, something he's been able to do since HS, and yet, think that Oladipo can improve his ball-handling so well to get to that level, yet absolutely struggled with his left hand at Indiana against guys who won't make the L. I've never been impressed with Carter in Iso situations, only the finishes at the hoop.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Great PGs can make multiple changes of direction, on the fly, with simple ball-handling, not complex moves.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
What point guard handles look like at the elite HS level.

http://youtu.be/QT9eKU8Q4XA
again, great handles. but most nba players dont have handles as good as this HS kid. you dont have to. its not necessary. not even if you're a pg. you need food work, change of speed(quicks). slow fast, slow fast. thats more then enough to create a long successful nba career.

the elite level dribbling is for guys that really want to make the defense look silly..cp3, dwill, drose, etc. we can go back to a healthy baron davis. still to me one of the coldest handlers i've seen. one of the few that can do AND 1 mixtape dribbles during nba games..LEGALLY and make people look silly trying to guard him. but do it for a reason. to get to the basket, create space for a shot or setup an assist.


I'm done with this argument about handles. I show you a guy who clearly has better handles than Oladipo and you respond, clearly not good enough in a one on one situation. Well, if it's not good enough, then how is Oladipo's?

As for Semaj, LOTS of NBA players have that level of ball-handling, right down to some SFs. But if Oladipo can't do that, then how in the world can he be expected to develop it at the NBA Level?

At NBA practices/workouts, there are Centers that look like they have PG level ball-handling because they go end-to-end with crossovers and behind the back. Shaq did it. Gasol could do it now. Blake Griffin. Even Oden showed it during his workouts. They NEVER do it at the NBA level, because NBA defenses are good enough to exploit it.

Oladipo showing quick crossovers in a workout tells me nothing unless he shows it in gametime. Against NCAA defenders, he can't go left, he doesn't change direction twice, and NBA defenders are that much tougher, and, your trying to convince me that his crossover is so quick that he'll be able to cross people like Westbrook at the NBA level?

Westbrook had the ability to do that at the HS level. He just never had to. Oladipo has to, but can't do it. That's the difference. Otherwise this is a different draft and Oladipo stands out as a #1 pick.

This is also why it's a role player's draft. Noel, McLemore, Len, Bennett all play like elite athletes but not elite shot creators, while the "average" athletes are better shot creators. Which would you choose?

This also makes it the most obvious of why I like Dennis Schroeder so much. He has the skill level, wingspan, AND quickness all combined. McLemore? No. Oladipo? No. Porter? No. CJ McCollum? Trey Burke? Yes.


mike, you know darn well most nba guys cant dribble like pg's outside of practice. that means its not NECESSARY to be a solid nba guy. what you do need is foot work, and a great first step. sometimes perfect footwork can give you a better first step then you actually have(nash, curry,etc).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x2Y_PnvgAI4#t=11s

^^he has the potential mike. i never lied on the guy and said right now he wont get shut down by tony allen. i'm saying he has the TOOLS. if he wasnt as quick i would not say this. if he was just as quick but was fumbling the ball all the time i wouldnt say this. but he has the TOOLS. if he can put it together at the nba level. he can be a very solid nba guy.

i mean shannon brown has much less dribbling ability then this guy and he's still in the nba.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject:

I can't tell you how many guys in the NBA have the tools.

I can't tell you how many actually take advantage of it through ball-handling, instead of working on a floater, improving 3pt. shooting, shooting off the dribble, focusing on defense, etc.

Ball-handling is almost last on the list, because it's that difficult to improve.

This is the new wave NBA. The best teams force turnovers because they put relentless pressure on the primary ball-handler. That's why Paul George and Stephenson take so much pressure off of George Hill, and even LeBron has help beside Wade and Chalmers.

Ball-handling. You have it, or you don't. If it were that easy, we wouldn't be watching Darius Morris struggling so much despite his constant work on ball-handling AND the fact he played PG his entire life. We wouldn't talk about Sasha being a SG, because he could barely handle playing PG against SPL level defenses. We wouldn't talk about Goudelock being such an issue bringing up the basketball.

They've had more than just the tools to be a great ball-handler. They've been primary ball-handlers at almost all levels of competition to the NBA.

Now, you can tell me Oladipo is going to utilize and in and out dribble, a left to right crossover, and maybe a spin move? Sure. They all do.

You want to tell me Oladipo can kill in Isolation situations going both left and right and being able to change directions twice on the fly? No way.

But I'll say this, if he had that kind of ball-handling upside, he would be the undisputed #1 pick in the draft. But he doesn't have PG IQ, he doesn't have PG court vision, and he turns the ball over once every five possessions. You can't tell me he's a great ballhandler when he turns it over 20% of the time. That's why he's seen as a defender, spot up shooter, and athletic finisher, and not a shot creator. He can't protect the ball.
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