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ribeye
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject:

Well, the great big ol' elephant sitting here, this time, is Obamacare and the public perception.

Before it was cutting the budget, which in case no one cares to see, has resulted in Obama's first three budget years (based on the old method of determining GDP--which very slightly changes the numbers from today) from 2010 (begins Oct 2009) - 2012, total government spending went up 1.67% on average annually, lower than any president since the Harry Truman, who had the benefit of the tremendous reduction in spending after WWII. So, really, this should be considered a victory for the Republicans who wanted to control government spending. To have so little government spending during a recession is unwise from my perspective, but they won this battle. I would call this a quite a concession for Obama. Though unemployment won't look good in looking back (partly as a result of this austerity approach), the debt, and, especially, the deficit and how it shrank so dramatically, will leave a favorable impression.

Now, it is off to try to stop Obamacare, a law with spending that is mostly from the mandatory budget, via a budget battle that deals with discretionary spending, or a debt ceiling issue that is irrelevant. And the real elephant sitting there, is that they understand, and anyone else who is politically savvy, that once this thing gets going, the public will like it. Once the kinks are ironed out and once people see it is not the end of the world as intimated, that crying wolf once more has failed again, it will become a mainstay. In case someone thinks this is hyperbole, has anyone see the Koch Bros ad? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FEUoNkF29o

And then guess what happens? This once disparaging term, Obamacare, will be positively associated with Barack Obama forever, just as Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR, have their positive associations. It will be one more feather in the headdress for progressives.

(If anyone is keeping score over the course of 240 years or so, this what the progressive and conservative headsets kinda look like:

Progressive
Conservative)

(Oh I kidd)
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Last edited by ribeye on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dvdrdiscs
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:34 am    Post subject:

LAKERSCMXCIX wrote:
32 wrote:
Quote:
WASHINGTON – Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky has repeatedly rescued Republicans in their fiscal fights with the White House. But not this time. At least not yet.

The seasoned McConnell has distanced himself from tea party renegades in his party, spurning the effort by Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) to halt funding for the government unless President Obama ends the Affordable Care Act, the nation’s new healthcare law.

“I just don’t happen to think filibustering a bill that defunds Obamacare is the best route to defunding Obamacare,” McConnell said as the Senate opened Tuesday. “All it does is shut down the government and keep Obamacare funded. And none of us want that.”


Link



im not a fan of McConnell but I like that he spoke out against Cruz





Turtle face may actually have a challenger next term. He knows he needs to reel it in with the crazy talk.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.




What a short-sighted and ridiculously simplified notion of how taxes and the economy works.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject:

It is a spending and revenue problem, both.

Using BEA data for 2012, spending was a little under 25% of GDP but revenues were at only a little over 17%. Both should be, according to my thinking, at about 21% of GDP (Reagan and HW spent at about 23% and W at 22%), so spending needs to drop about 4 points while revenue needs to raise about 4 points. That is, if we want a balance budget.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject:

dvdrdiscs wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.




What a short-sighted and ridiculously simplified notion of how taxes and the economy works.


Its not an attempt at showing how they work. Its simplified, and the tax exaggerated, to demonstrate how much we are spending, and that the argument for taxing the rich won't lead to making much of a dent.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2012/04/03/john-stossel-tax-the-rich-the-rich-dont-have-enough-really/
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.




What a short-sighted and ridiculously simplified notion of how taxes and the economy works.


Its not an attempt at showing how they work. Its simplified, and the tax exaggerated, to demonstrate how much we are spending, and that the argument for taxing the rich won't lead to making much of a dent.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2012/04/03/john-stossel-tax-the-rich-the-rich-dont-have-enough-really/


We have decreased taxation for some 30+ years. As we have, the debt has steadily increased. Since 1980, when the US debt was just under $1T, it is now about $16.7T. It took awhile. It will take awhile, even with increased taxation, and reduced spending, to remedy the problem.

The reality is, if we want what we want, and it seems we do, then all taxes will need to increase. At such time that this recession/recovery rebounds to where our unemployment is at 6.5% or so (assuming this is feasible in today's world), then we should resort completely to the Clinton rates, add an additional bracket at 50% for that income beyond $5M or so, and tax capital gains as regular earned income--though some inflationary gauge could be factored for this. This should only occur if it is agreed that spending is not increased until the debt to GDP drops to something like 50%.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject:

dvdrdiscs wrote:
LAKERSCMXCIX wrote:
32 wrote:
Quote:
WASHINGTON – Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky has repeatedly rescued Republicans in their fiscal fights with the White House. But not this time. At least not yet.

The seasoned McConnell has distanced himself from tea party renegades in his party, spurning the effort by Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) to halt funding for the government unless President Obama ends the Affordable Care Act, the nation’s new healthcare law.

“I just don’t happen to think filibustering a bill that defunds Obamacare is the best route to defunding Obamacare,” McConnell said as the Senate opened Tuesday. “All it does is shut down the government and keep Obamacare funded. And none of us want that.”


Link



im not a fan of McConnell but I like that he spoke out against Cruz





Turtle face may actually have a challenger next term. He knows he needs to reel it in with the crazy talk.




its kind of like bobby Jindal saying "we need to stop being the stupid party"...

ehh too late
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.


Nothing will happen, the bucket will continue to be kicked down the road until one day the nation has realizes it has no more money it can borrow, then it will be forced to retreat from doing the world's dirty work, etc. Its happened to all great nations and empires throughout history. Looks like we are going to repeat this in the future it seems like.


Last edited by lakersken80 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LINK
Listen to the entire speech with open minds.

Congress is hurting the country in their effort to discredit the President. As I said before, Republicans are hurting the country. They will feel it at the polls.

Quote:
“They’re focused on politics,” Mr. Obama told autoworkers at a Ford plant in Liberty. “They’re focused on trying to mess with me; they’re not focused on you.”

Quote:
Each side predicted that the other would be held responsible, but determined House Republicans knew they were taking a risk even as leaders of the party’s establishment warned about the threat of destructive political consequences.

Quote:
Officials from both parties involved in past shutdowns warned that House Republicans stand to come out on the losing end.

I think Republicans are going to come out on the losing end. They're allowing insurance companies to influence them by lining their pockets.


I agree that Republicans will be blamed.

But both sides are playing politics.


Only one side is shutting down the government though. Those soldiers in the Afghanistan desert? They'd probably like to get paid.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.


Nothing will happen, the bucket will continue to be kicked down the road until one day the nation has realizes it has no more money it can borrow, then it will be forced to retreat from doing the world's dirty work, etc. Its happened to all great nations and empires throughout history. Looks like we are going to repeat this in the future it seems like.


The nation that acts as the worlds reserve currency will never have to declare bankruptcy. Inflation a probability? Sure, but we're not going to go bankrupt.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.


Nothing will happen, the bucket will continue to be kicked down the road until one day the nation has realizes it has no more money it can borrow, then it will be forced to retreat from doing the world's dirty work, etc. Its happened to all great nations and empires throughout history. Looks like we are going to repeat this in the future it seems like.


The nation that acts as the worlds reserve currency will never have to declare bankruptcy. Inflation a probability? Sure, but we're not going to go bankrupt.


Thats what the Romans and British probably thought once.....and look where they ended up.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.


Nothing will happen, the bucket will continue to be kicked down the road until one day the nation has realizes it has no more money it can borrow, then it will be forced to retreat from doing the world's dirty work, etc. Its happened to all great nations and empires throughout history. Looks like we are going to repeat this in the future it seems like.


The nation that acts as the worlds reserve currency will never have to declare bankruptcy. Inflation a probability? Sure, but we're not going to go bankrupt.


Thats what the Romans and British probably thought once.....and look where they ended up.


The Eastern Roman Empire lasted in some form through World War 1, and the British are still one of the most powerful countries on the planet.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.


Nothing will happen, the bucket will continue to be kicked down the road until one day the nation has realizes it has no more money it can borrow, then it will be forced to retreat from doing the world's dirty work, etc. Its happened to all great nations and empires throughout history. Looks like we are going to repeat this in the future it seems like.


The nation that acts as the worlds reserve currency will never have to declare bankruptcy. Inflation a probability? Sure, but we're not going to go bankrupt.


Thats what the Romans and British probably thought once.....and look where they ended up.


The Eastern Roman Empire lasted in some form through World War 1, and the British are still one of the most powerful countries on the planet.


The Brits went bankrupt after World War II, gave up most of their overseas territories because they could no longer afford to maintain them, not to mention their military went thru a period of tremendous downsizing.The Eastern Roman Empire wasn't even the same Roman Empire. It was an offshoot that managed to survive under control from Constantinople.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject:

LINK

This shut down is because the Republicans don't want The Affordable Care Act to go forward.

It's passed yet some Republicans are bowing to insurance companies, pharmacetical firms and hospitals. Those industries have spent hundreds of millions to keep their industries in business, protect their bottom line. The people don't matter.

Quote:
Supporters of radical reform of healthcare say legislation emerging from the US Senate reflects the financial power of vested interests ‑ principally insurance companies, pharmaceutical firms and hospitals ‑ that have worked to stop far-reaching changes threatening their profits.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The debt is a totally (bleep) problem. The IRS could tax the rich 100% of their income after the first $1Million and that would only bring in $616 Billion Dollars. We are operating on somewhere around a $1 trillion dollar deficit each year(give or take a few hundred billion). Our national debt would still continue to skyrocket with ridiculous taxes.




What a short-sighted and ridiculously simplified notion of how taxes and the economy works.


Its not an attempt at showing how they work. Its simplified, and the tax exaggerated, to demonstrate how much we are spending, and that the argument for taxing the rich won't lead to making much of a dent.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2012/04/03/john-stossel-tax-the-rich-the-rich-dont-have-enough-really/



We aren't taxing the rich and throwing that money directly at the debt. That is the simplified and incorrect scenario you are spouting. We tax the rich so we don't have to make drastic cuts elsewhere. We tax the rich so the middle class don't have the carry the burden of a bad economy. We tax the rich so we can implement programs that foster economic growth. The purpose of raising taxes on the rich isn't to directly solve the debt issue. It's to spur economic growth that will have an exponential effect on paying down the debt.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
LINK

This shut down is because the Republicans don't want The Affordable Care Act to go forward.

It's passed yet some Republicans are bowing to insurance companies, pharmacetical firms and hospitals. Those industries have spent hundreds of millions to keep their industries in business, protect their bottom line. The people don't matter.

Quote:
Supporters of radical reform of healthcare say legislation emerging from the US Senate reflects the financial power of vested interests ‑ principally insurance companies, pharmaceutical firms and hospitals ‑ that have worked to stop far-reaching changes threatening their profits.



It's not really 100% true to say the Republicans are against Obamacare for this reason. Obamacare bows to the insurance and health providers too. It's the Tea Party faction. They ran on repealing Obamacare through lies, half-truths, and misrepresentation. With the way districts are drawn, non-Tea Party Republicans are deathly afraid of being primaried by a Tea Party Republican backed by the Koch brothers. As a result, they bow to the Tea Party.

This Republican congress has successfully passed something like two bills in the last few years, one of which is a bill to rename a post office. They have tried to pass legislation to repeal Obamacare something like 42 times. It's becoming absolutely comical because they KNOW it won't happen. Yet they have to keep doing it so they can go home to their constituents and said they are trying to keep their campaign promise.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Washington (CNN) -- Over the next few days, the drama of a potential government shutdown will collide with the promise of a new health insurance system known as Obamacare.

Here are answers to eight of the most pressing questions about both:


Can it be stopped? 8 answers on Obamacare and the shutdown
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject:

dvdrdiscs wrote:
It's not really 100% true to say the Republicans are against Obamacare for this reason. Obamacare bows to the insurance and health providers too. It's the Tea Party faction. They ran on repealing Obamacare through lies, half-truths, and misrepresentation. With the way districts are drawn, non-Tea Party Republicans are deathly afraid of being primaried by a Tea Party Republican backed by the Koch brothers. As a result, they bow to the Tea Party.

This Republican congress has successfully passed something like two bills in the last few years, one of which is a bill to rename a post office. They have tried to pass legislation to repeal Obamacare something like 42 times. It's becoming absolutely comical because they KNOW it won't happen. Yet they have to keep doing it so they can go home to their constituents and said they are trying to keep their campaign promise.


Yeah, the way districts are drawn is a joke. Democrats received more than 1.5 million more votes in the last election cycle, but have less representation in the house because of gerrymandering.

And the Koch brothers/primary threat: thanks again Supreme Court for Citizens United. That decision has done more to harm this country than any other decision in history.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject:

dvdrdiscs wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LINK

This shut down is because the Republicans don't want The Affordable Care Act to go forward.

It's passed yet some Republicans are bowing to insurance companies, pharmacetical firms and hospitals. Those industries have spent hundreds of millions to keep their industries in business, protect their bottom line. The people don't matter.

Quote:
Supporters of radical reform of healthcare say legislation emerging from the US Senate reflects the financial power of vested interests ‑ principally insurance companies, pharmaceutical firms and hospitals ‑ that have worked to stop far-reaching changes threatening their profits.



It's not really 100% true to say the Republicans are against Obamacare for this reason. Obamacare bows to the insurance and health providers too. It's the Tea Party faction. They ran on repealing Obamacare through lies, half-truths, and misrepresentation. With the way districts are drawn, non-Tea Party Republicans are deathly afraid of being primaried by a Tea Party Republican backed by the Koch brothers. As a result, they bow to the Tea Party.

This Republican congress has successfully passed something like two bills in the last few years, one of which is a bill to rename a post office. They have tried to pass legislation to repeal Obamacare something like 42 times. It's becoming absolutely comical because they KNOW it won't happen. Yet they have to keep doing it so they can go home to their constituents and said they are trying to keep their campaign promise.

I think "bow" is overstated. I'd say more he compromised because money is king. He's doing all he can to keep tje Affordable Care Act moving
Quote:
A former member of Bill Clinton's cabinet says fears that the industry could throw its money behind the populist rightwing backlash against public insurance have scared the Obama White House into pulling back from the most significant reforms in return for healthcare companies not trying to scupper the entire legislation.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:


Yeah, the way districts are drawn is a joke. Democrats received more than 1.5 million more votes in the last election cycle, but have less representation in the house because of gerrymandering.


To be fair, gerrymandering has a long history and has been utilized by both parties. Of course, one solution is to get rid of districts and use proportional representation, or to have a combination of the two, such as they do in Germany. I'd favor the latter, but that would never happen in this country.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject:

I'm just tired of the "hostage takers" mentality of the Teahadists in Congress.

They pulled this same BS with the Debt Ceiling and it resulted in a downgrade of our Sovereign Debt Rating.

Now they're threatening a shutdown if their demands aren't met yet again. You gotta go with the 'ol Ronald Reagan, "we don't negotiate with terrorists" here.

Yeah, I said it. These tea party jokers are basically the representative equivalents of terrorists. You can't cave into their FUD.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject:

kray28_ wrote:
I'm just tired of the "hostage takers" mentality of the Teahadists in Congress.

They pulled this same BS with the Debt Ceiling and it resulted in a downgrade of our Sovereign Debt Rating.

Now they're threatening a shutdown if their demands aren't met yet again. You gotta go with the 'ol Ronald Reagan, "we don't negotiate with terrorists" here.

Yeah, I said it. These tea party jokers are basically the representative equivalents of terrorists. You can't cave into their FUD.




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject:

realking24 wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
I'm just tired of the "hostage takers" mentality of the Teahadists in Congress.

They pulled this same BS with the Debt Ceiling and it resulted in a downgrade of our Sovereign Debt Rating.

Now they're threatening a shutdown if their demands aren't met yet again. You gotta go with the 'ol Ronald Reagan, "we don't negotiate with terrorists" here.

Yeah, I said it. These tea party jokers are basically the representative equivalents of terrorists. You can't cave into their FUD.






A thoughtful and well reasoned rebuttal.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject:

kray28_ wrote:
realking24 wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
I'm just tired of the "hostage takers" mentality of the Teahadists in Congress.

They pulled this same BS with the Debt Ceiling and it resulted in a downgrade of our Sovereign Debt Rating.

Now they're threatening a shutdown if their demands aren't met yet again. You gotta go with the 'ol Ronald Reagan, "we don't negotiate with terrorists" here.

Yeah, I said it. These tea party jokers are basically the representative equivalents of terrorists. You can't cave into their FUD.






A thoughtful and well reasoned rebuttal.



One deserves another.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject:

I lol'ed
Quote:

8. What happens if I don't buy health insurance?

You're young and healthy. You don't really want health insurance. No sweat. You don't have to buy it. You can "opt out." But then you'll have to pay a fine of between $95 for every adult in your house or 1% of your income after $10,000, whichever is larger. So if you're single and you make $50,000, you'd have to pay a $400 fine for not having health insurance. The Supreme Court called this fine a tax. You can look at it that way. Or you can view it as an upfront payment for having hospital and ambulance services able to come get you if you need them. Or you can look at it as horrible government overreach. Some people do.
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