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Ted
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:18 pm    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
Ted wrote:


The good thing is that now with social media, slowly but surely the true nature of the Israeli regime is being revealed. You might not see it on CNN or Fox News but the pictures and videos are out there for the world to see, children with their arms and heads blown off, IDF forces beating, kicking women and children out of their homes at gunpoint, etc. This story isn't as black and white as you are lead to believe ("Hamas shoots rockets, Israel retaliates"). This is the new age apartheid regime and it's important to stand on the right side of history.


Yes, like the pictures that Hamas releases from Total Destination. You'd think that with all of the terrible things that Israel is doing, they could come up with real pictures. Kind of like that picture of a soldier holding a child down with his boot a few years back. It went viral, was referenced on several sites like BBC and CNN, and was also ultimately found to be fake... or, rather, completely staged.

It's funny that you claim that the story isn't black and white, yet take all of one side's propaganda at face value, hook, line, and sinker. Then again, when you hear Kerry's off-mic comments and take that to mean that Israel is purposely targeting civilians, I don't suppose there's any reason to even both discussing this with you.


The pictures I've been seeing are from reputable journalists from the BBC, MSNBC, CNN, and Reuters on twitter from over the past 2 weeks. When multiple journalists are reporting the same thing (such as the bombing of the hospital in Gaza two days ago, or the shelling of those 4 kids on the beach), you can spin that how you want it but it's verified. Sure there will be fake images that pop up but truth is always the first casualty in war. It happens on both sides. That's why it's important to get your news from sources you can trust. I don't know where you get your information from.

There's always a reason to have a debate and discussion. If you disagree with anything I've posted, have at it. I've read through your comments in this thread so I already know where you stand. I've been meaning to stay out of this thread just because I dislike discussing politics online. But we'll probably have to agree to disagree anyways. I stand by everything I've written.

And btw, Kerry made a sarcastic comment about how their "pinpoint" strikes are not very pinpoint at all, meaning they weren't giving much thought to protecting civilians. He got called out on it by the Fox News host. Those are facts, not something I made up.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.606212
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Jeffs
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject:

The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.

Quote:
And btw, Kerry made a sarcastic comment about how their "pinpoint" strikes are not very pinpoint at all, meaning they weren't giving much thought to protecting civilians. He got called out on it by the Fox News host. Those are facts, not something I made up.


I watched the interview. You don't see the difference between that and actively targeting civilians, as you claimed they did (and as Hamas has done throughout its existence)?

When Hamas hides behind civilians and asks them to die for no conceivable reason except to be used as propaganda, all while continuing to fire rockets into Israeli civilian centers, what exactly do you propose the Israelis do? Yes, the Iron Dome defense system is state of the art and stops most of the rockets. However, many of them DO get through. Some of them DO injure/kill people. Even one death is absolutely unacceptable, just as it would be for any other country
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Ted
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.

Quote:
And btw, Kerry made a sarcastic comment about how their "pinpoint" strikes are not very pinpoint at all, meaning they weren't giving much thought to protecting civilians. He got called out on it by the Fox News host. Those are facts, not something I made up.


I watched the interview. You don't see the difference between that and actively targeting civilians, as you claimed they did (and as Hamas has done throughout its existence)?

When Hamas hides behind civilians and asks them to die for no conceivable reason except to be used as propaganda, all while continuing to fire rockets into Israeli civilian centers, what exactly do you propose the Israelis do? Yes, the Iron Dome defense system is state of the art and stops most of the rockets. However, many of them DO get through. Some of them DO injure/kill people. Even one death is absolutely unacceptable, just as it would be for any other country


As one of the world's strongest and most advanced militaries, the onus is on the Israelis to try everything in their power to avoid civilian casualties. The fact that the US Secretary of State even acknowledges that they aren't really doing that says a lot. Their victims are 80% civilians. You would think they could do a better job with their precision strikes? Maybe they should change tactics if they actually cared about avoiding killing innocents. At the end of the day, "not giving much thought to harming civilians is pretty much the same as "targeting civilians". That's pretty much what John Kerry was alluding to. He obviously had to change his tune once confronted about it. If you drop a bomb on a hospital and on paramedics attending to casualties, then yeah, you lost the moral high ground. And you can use the "human shield" excuse all you want, the four children who were murdered on the beach were playing soccer. Were they human shields as well?

NEW YORK TIMES: http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/17/world/07GAZA-1/07GAZA-1-master675.jpg
Is that photo doctored as well?

Video of IDF soldiers beating the ish out of a kid, this video was played on all the major stations.

I'm sure you've seen this video. This happens all the time, thankfully this kid happened to be an American so it got airtime. There are numerous videos like these online. You can search for them yourself. This violent behavior of the Israeli soldiers is ingrained in them. Watch some of the testimonies from the former IDF soldiers. They have also used children as human shields, in their own words (the first video talks about IDF soldiers sending in a kid into a house first before the soldiers themselves go in):




What do I propose the Israelis do? Well, stop the illegal occupation. That's the root of the problem. Stop the blockade. Open the borders. Stop the demolition of homes and settlement construction which is illegal under international law. All of that is a start.
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cisternachyli
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

everyone needs to read this....
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Jeffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:25 am    Post subject:

Ted wrote:


As one of the world's strongest and most advanced militaries, the onus is on the Israelis to try everything in their power to avoid civilian casualties.


The first responsibility of the IDF is to protect the citizens of Israel. While those citizens are at risk due to the continued fire of rockets into civilian centers, their first priority should be (and is) to stop those rockets. If Hamas continues to fire those rockets while hiding behind their people, then that blood is on THEIR hands.

Now, that isn't to say that mistakes don't happen. The children on the beach example you have alluded to is one of those mistakes. I'm obviously not going to defend the deaths of four children. However, those who want to take their deaths and stretch it to argue that Israelis are purposely targeting civilians are making claims that go against everything else that we have seen thus far. If Israelis are going to kill civilian children in the open, then why are they bothering to warn other civilians of impending strikes? It just doesn't follow common sense.

Quote:
The fact that the US Secretary of State even acknowledges that they aren't really doing that says a lot. Their victims are 80% civilians. You would think they could do a better job with their precision strikes? Maybe they should change tactics if they actually cared about avoiding killing innocents. At the end of the day, "not giving much thought to harming civilians is pretty much the same as "targeting civilians". That's pretty much what John Kerry was alluding to.


Again, there is a MASSIVE gap between not doing everything in their power to avoid casualties and actively targeting civilians. Only one side of this conflict is doing the latter. Stop putting words in Kerry's mouth.

Quote:
If you drop a bomb on a hospital and on paramedics attending to casualties, then yeah, you lost the moral high ground.


You mean the hospital Hamas was using to manufacture rockets?


Quote:
Video of IDF soldiers beating the ish out of a kid, this video was played on all the major stations.

I'm sure you've seen this video. This happens all the time, thankfully this kid happened to be an American so it got airtime. There are numerous videos like these online. You can search for them yourself.


The justice ministry has opened an investigation into this. There is no excuse for what these soldiers did to this child, even if he was allegedly throwing Molotov cocktails. Regardless, he was no longer a threat in this clip and should have been arrested, not beaten. However, the extrapolations that you pull from this are similar to someone stating that the American federal government instructs police officers to beat minorities on the streets. People in the U.S. have been beaten far worse for far less. Officers/soldiers abuse their powers at times, and hopefully these soldiers are punished for it.



Quote:
This violent behavior of the Israeli soldiers is ingrained in them.


As it is in nearly all Palestinians (not just soldiers). Both sides genuinely hate the other. Regardless of which side is right, that is how they are raised. However, one side has shown (even if not by all of their actions) that they value humanity(link). I haven't seen that from the other side. At all.

Quote:
Watch some of the testimonies from the former IDF soldiers. They have also used children as human shields, in their own words (the first video talks about IDF soldiers sending in a kid into a house first before the soldiers themselves go in):




The first video, if true, is unfortunate. Children are not mature enough to willingly do these things. With that said, that's still not the same as storing rockets in kindergartens and homes and instructing people to stay there even when a strike is imminent, just so you can use their deaths politically. The latter shows absolutely no regard for the lives of their people. I don't glean that from what the IDF have done, if this soldier is even to be believed.

The second video took 3 minutes to not tell us anything.

In the third video, again if we are to take it at face value, the former solider herself points out that attacking the Palestinian child throwing rocks is against protocol. The soldier who fired was reprimanded, and frankly we have no idea how. She ponders why his punishment was supposedly less severe than one for someone who allows an uninspected truck past the border, but I can answer that question.

This is why.

Quote:
What do I propose the Israelis do? Well, stop the illegal occupation. That's the root of the problem. Stop the blockade. Open the borders. Stop the demolition of homes and settlement construction which is illegal under international law. All of that is a start.


They already left Gaza once. They uprooted all of the Israelis in the area, gave it to the Palestinians (along with greenhouses and other aids to jumpstart their economy), and withdrew the military. The only reason they're back is because they seemingly have to be in order to stop the continued fire of rockets into their country.

Or do you mean the west bank that they occupied after all of their neighbors attempted to annihilate them in 1967? Maybe an agreement similar to the one with Egypt could be reached if Israel was not afraid of being attacked by virtually every other neighbor in the region. In the meantime, hundreds of thousands of Muslims are living in these occupied areas, with all of the same rights and freedoms as any Jew or Christian in Israel. In fact, far more rights and freedoms than in any other country in the region.

Ultimately, you can post pictures and videos of atrocities committed by both sides. If that's what you'd like to do, I'm pretty sure I can post a lot more. Nothing that you have posted so far has in any way shown that these crimes are the results of military strategy or orders from the Israeli government. On the other hand, many of the atrocities committed by the other side are not only committed in accordance with the new "Unity" government, but are celebrated by the masses. Those are the people who you claim have the moral high ground?
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Shalashaska
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
Ted wrote:


As one of the world's strongest and most advanced militaries, the onus is on the Israelis to try everything in their power to avoid civilian casualties.


The first responsibility of the IDF is to protect the citizens of Israel. While those citizens are at risk due to the continued fire of rockets into civilian centers, their first priority should be (and is) to stop those rockets. If Hamas continues to fire those rockets while hiding behind their people, then that blood is on THEIR hands.

Now, that isn't to say that mistakes don't happen. The children on the beach example you have alluded to is one of those mistakes. I'm obviously not going to defend the deaths of four children. However, those who want to take their deaths and stretch it to argue that Israelis are purposely targeting civilians are making claims that go against everything else that we have seen thus far. If Israelis are going to kill civilian children in the open, then why are they bothering to warn other civilians of impending strikes? It just doesn't follow common sense.

Quote:
The fact that the US Secretary of State even acknowledges that they aren't really doing that says a lot. Their victims are 80% civilians. You would think they could do a better job with their precision strikes? Maybe they should change tactics if they actually cared about avoiding killing innocents. At the end of the day, "not giving much thought to harming civilians is pretty much the same as "targeting civilians". That's pretty much what John Kerry was alluding to.


Again, there is a MASSIVE gap between not doing everything in their power to avoid casualties and actively targeting civilians. Only one side of this conflict is doing the latter. Stop putting words in Kerry's mouth.

Quote:
If you drop a bomb on a hospital and on paramedics attending to casualties, then yeah, you lost the moral high ground.


You mean the hospital Hamas was using to manufacture rockets?


Quote:
Video of IDF soldiers beating the ish out of a kid, this video was played on all the major stations.

I'm sure you've seen this video. This happens all the time, thankfully this kid happened to be an American so it got airtime. There are numerous videos like these online. You can search for them yourself.


The justice ministry has opened an investigation into this. There is no excuse for what these soldiers did to this child, even if he was allegedly throwing Molotov cocktails. Regardless, he was no longer a threat in this clip and should have been arrested, not beaten. However, the extrapolations that you pull from this are similar to someone stating that the American federal government instructs police officers to beat minorities on the streets. People in the U.S. have been beaten far worse for far less. Officers/soldiers abuse their powers at times, and hopefully these soldiers are punished for it.



Quote:
This violent behavior of the Israeli soldiers is ingrained in them.


As it is in nearly all Palestinians (not just soldiers). Both sides genuinely hate the other. Regardless of which side is right, that is how they are raised. However, one side has shown (even if not by all of their actions) that they value humanity(link). I haven't seen that from the other side. At all.

Quote:
Watch some of the testimonies from the former IDF soldiers. They have also used children as human shields, in their own words (the first video talks about IDF soldiers sending in a kid into a house first before the soldiers themselves go in):




The first video, if true, is unfortunate. Children are not mature enough to willingly do these things. With that said, that's still not the same as storing rockets in kindergartens and homes and instructing people to stay there even when a strike is imminent, just so you can use their deaths politically. The latter shows absolutely no regard for the lives of their people. I don't glean that from what the IDF have done, if this soldier is even to be believed.

The second video took 3 minutes to not tell us anything.

In the third video, again if we are to take it at face value, the former solider herself points out that attacking the Palestinian child throwing rocks is against protocol. The soldier who fired was reprimanded, and frankly we have no idea how. She ponders why his punishment was supposedly less severe than one for someone who allows an uninspected truck past the border, but I can answer that question.

This is why.

Quote:
What do I propose the Israelis do? Well, stop the illegal occupation. That's the root of the problem. Stop the blockade. Open the borders. Stop the demolition of homes and settlement construction which is illegal under international law. All of that is a start.


They already left Gaza once. They uprooted all of the Israelis in the area, gave it to the Palestinians (along with greenhouses and other aids to jumpstart their economy), and withdrew the military. The only reason they're back is because they seemingly have to be in order to stop the continued fire of rockets into their country.

Or do you mean the west bank that they occupied after all of their neighbors attempted to annihilate them in 1967? Maybe an agreement similar to the one with Egypt could be reached if Israel was not afraid of being attacked by virtually every other neighbor in the region. In the meantime, hundreds of thousands of Muslims are living in these occupied areas, with all of the same rights and freedoms as any Jew or Christian in Israel. In fact, far more rights and freedoms than in any other country in the region.

Ultimately, you can post pictures and videos of atrocities committed by both sides. If that's what you'd like to do, I'm pretty sure I can post a lot more. Nothing that you have posted so far has in any way shown that these crimes are the results of military strategy or orders from the Israeli government. On the other hand, many of the atrocities committed by the other side are not only committed in accordance with the new "Unity" government, but are celebrated by the masses. Those are the people who you claim have the moral high ground?


Well stated, and I agree completely.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:13 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject:

I wonder if Putin crossed Obama's "Red Line" this time?
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Jeffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.


Addressed it above. Thanks for reading my post. I have already noted that I am not and do not claim to be neutral on the issue, but when others use isolated incidents, occurring during war, which have been both condemned and punished (or are in the process), to show that Israel has a policy of such things, I'm going to speak up.

In a conflict like this, both sides genuinely hate each other. That means that soldiers make mistakes. Just like police officers make mistakes in the US, where I haven't seen anyone accuse the federal government of ordering officers to detain and attack minorities. Ultimately, only one of the sides celebrates and encourages things like what happened to Tariq Abu Khdeir (and worse). That side isn't Israel
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.


Addressed it above. Thanks for reading my post. I have already noted that I am not and do not claim to be neutral on the issue, but when others use isolated incidents, occurring during war, which have been both condemned and punished (or are in the process), to show that Israel has a policy of such things, I'm going to speak up.

In a conflict like this, both sides genuinely hate each other. That means that soldiers make mistakes. Just like police officers make mistakes in the US, where I haven't seen anyone accuse the federal government of ordering officers to detain and attack minorities. Ultimately, only one of the sides celebrates and encourages things like what happened to Tariq Abu Khdeir (and worse). That side isn't Israel


Really? But Israelis applauding airstrikes that are known to be coming with civilian casualties is OK?

Can you stop the BS please? It'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you didn't so blatantly dismiss Israeli culpability and inappropriate actions. You chastise others for allegedly "supporting terrorists" because they don't share your views on the conflict, yet you excuse away unacceptable actions by the Israelis. It's a bit gross and does nothing but hurt your claims.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:
I wonder if Putin crossed Obama's "Red Line" this time?


I don't think anybody from the US intimidates Putin, he is afterall a former KGB officer. Not grandpa McCain, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and definitely not Obama.
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Jeffs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:30 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.


Addressed it above. Thanks for reading my post. I have already noted that I am not and do not claim to be neutral on the issue, but when others use isolated incidents, occurring during war, which have been both condemned and punished (or are in the process), to show that Israel has a policy of such things, I'm going to speak up.

In a conflict like this, both sides genuinely hate each other. That means that soldiers make mistakes. Just like police officers make mistakes in the US, where I haven't seen anyone accuse the federal government of ordering officers to detain and attack minorities. Ultimately, only one of the sides celebrates and encourages things like what happened to Tariq Abu Khdeir (and worse). That side isn't Israel


Really? But Israelis applauding airstrikes that are known to be coming with civilian casualties is OK?

Can you stop the BS please? It'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you didn't so blatantly dismiss Israeli culpability and inappropriate actions. You chastise others for allegedly "supporting terrorists" because they don't share your views on the conflict, yet you excuse away unacceptable actions by the Israelis. It's a bit gross and does nothing but hurt your claims.


Not excusing anything away. I simply find it ridiculous that the actions of a minority on one side are exaggerated to include everyone (including leadership), whereas the actions of a majority on the other side are wholly ignored by some posters here.

A town under constant bombardment for YEARS celebrates missiles that are supposed to destroy the sites that have been attacking them, while the other side celebrates suicide bombers and encourages other young adults and children to follow in their footsteps.
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I feel like I just watched someone TRULY give 100%. Not the BS I'm-gonna-give-a-110%-just-like-everyone-else-says platitudes, but someone that went until he just....broke. - GT
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:38 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
I simply find it ridiculous that the actions of a minority on one side are exaggerated to include everyone (including leadership), whereas the actions of a majority on the other side are wholly ignored by some posters here.


I don't know about the majority and minority stuff. Maybe you're right, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that it isn't a majority on both sides.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject:

Is this real or faked
http://1.1.1.1/bmi/i.imgur.com/6ZUIXye.jpg

Responses to the four children being murdered by the supposed accidental bombing.. Military analysts have said they had to target these people by hand and eye after they hit the building
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.


Addressed it above. Thanks for reading my post. I have already noted that I am not and do not claim to be neutral on the issue, but when others use isolated incidents, occurring during war, which have been both condemned and punished (or are in the process), to show that Israel has a policy of such things, I'm going to speak up.

In a conflict like this, both sides genuinely hate each other. That means that soldiers make mistakes. Just like police officers make mistakes in the US, where I haven't seen anyone accuse the federal government of ordering officers to detain and attack minorities. Ultimately, only one of the sides celebrates and encourages things like what happened to Tariq Abu Khdeir (and worse). That side isn't Israel


Really? But Israelis applauding airstrikes that are known to be coming with civilian casualties is OK?

Can you stop the BS please? It'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you didn't so blatantly dismiss Israeli culpability and inappropriate actions. You chastise others for allegedly "supporting terrorists" because they don't share your views on the conflict, yet you excuse away unacceptable actions by the Israelis. It's a bit gross and does nothing but hurt your claims.


Not excusing anything away. I simply find it ridiculous that the actions of a minority on one side are exaggerated to include everyone (including leadership), whereas the actions of a majority on the other side are wholly ignored by some posters here.

A town under constant bombardment for YEARS celebrates missiles that are supposed to destroy the sites that have been attacking them, while the other side celebrates suicide bombers and encourages other young adults and children to follow in their footsteps.

What you just completely FAIL to grasp and understand is the whole basis that their homes and lands have been taken from them. ok ok, nevermind that even. How about that the palestinians are living in a CONCENTRATION CAMP. do you even (bleep) understand that aspect? can you step out side of your israeli bubble and see what all that entails? any claim you make against hamas and palestinians as a whole, all you have to do is just go back to square one where the FACT is palestinian land was taken from them, and they were not allowed back, and they're living in a concentration camp that is blocked from any outside aid, and israel continues to take more land and bulid more settlements to sabotage ANY PEACE TALKS. this isn't opinion. These are FACTS. Yes palestinians land was taken from them by the British. who the (bleep) are the british to decide that on behalf of the palestinians? Yes, the palestinians are living and have been living in a concentration camp. No aid allowed, indiscriminate killings, unwarranted arrests and raids. bulldoze their homes. its one small plot of land with over a million people caged inside in it like animals. Israel "oh we want peace..lets get peace talks started............while we also build some more settlements on disputed lands...yes we want peace" LOL. yea..they want peace alright..

ethnically cleansing a group of caged people and then with their brainwashing ways through the media "they are using civilians as shield..." and that is your GO TO MOVE. how about you look at the situation and call it for what it is. you got close to 2 million people in a little "strip" of land. where can hamas go and not be around civilians? you're telling me israel has the 2nd most sophisticated weaponry in the WORLD, and they can't distinguish between a person shooting rockets and children playing soccer on the beach? why are you a coward? if you're going to support a terrorist regime, have some balls and own up to it. say it. quit trying to defend that which you CANT. you CANT justify israels genocide. but yet you're here trying to do that.

So what you're going to do is type up your one sided rebuttal. And then come back to this and read it again, so that you understand why Israel is at fault. Why ANY human, any group of people on planet earth would do the same thing. YOU would do what the palestinians are doing. Seriously though. Hamas is throwing rockets at israel? go back to square one and see why they're doing it. Hamas calls for israel's destruction? go back to suare one. they are celebrating the capture of an israeli soldier..go back to square one. Square one being the land taken from them and then being enclosed to a strip of land with nearly 2 milllion people. And then add to the mix the random unwarranted arrests, the children being killed, the parents and relatives being killed during bombings. all that does is fuel the fire that israel has lit. so you're telling me it is OK for a group of people to take something from another group...as if that wasn't bad enough, then trap them and deprive them of any outside aid. and carry out the atrocities that israel has for the past 40 years..and the group that had their land, rights, dignity taken away, they're supposed to just be ok with it? you would be ok with that?? im sick of your biased one-sided takes. if you're going to be inhumane and biased, dont post. you diminish your credibility..whatever of it is left.

and it just hit me..you have got to be one of israel's internet soldiers. lol. pathetic.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:23 am    Post subject:

In a conflict that cannot be cleanly blamed on one side over the other, Israel wins the high ground because of the Girls of the IDF.

Your move, Palestine.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject:

LakersChamps04 wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.


Addressed it above. Thanks for reading my post. I have already noted that I am not and do not claim to be neutral on the issue, but when others use isolated incidents, occurring during war, which have been both condemned and punished (or are in the process), to show that Israel has a policy of such things, I'm going to speak up.

In a conflict like this, both sides genuinely hate each other. That means that soldiers make mistakes. Just like police officers make mistakes in the US, where I haven't seen anyone accuse the federal government of ordering officers to detain and attack minorities. Ultimately, only one of the sides celebrates and encourages things like what happened to Tariq Abu Khdeir (and worse). That side isn't Israel


Really? But Israelis applauding airstrikes that are known to be coming with civilian casualties is OK?

Can you stop the BS please? It'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you didn't so blatantly dismiss Israeli culpability and inappropriate actions. You chastise others for allegedly "supporting terrorists" because they don't share your views on the conflict, yet you excuse away unacceptable actions by the Israelis. It's a bit gross and does nothing but hurt your claims.


Not excusing anything away. I simply find it ridiculous that the actions of a minority on one side are exaggerated to include everyone (including leadership), whereas the actions of a majority on the other side are wholly ignored by some posters here.

A town under constant bombardment for YEARS celebrates missiles that are supposed to destroy the sites that have been attacking them, while the other side celebrates suicide bombers and encourages other young adults and children to follow in their footsteps.

What you just completely FAIL to grasp and understand is the whole basis that their homes and lands have been taken from them. ok ok, nevermind that even. How about that the palestinians are living in a CONCENTRATION CAMP. do you even (bleep) understand that aspect? can you step out side of your israeli bubble and see what all that entails? any claim you make against hamas and palestinians as a whole, all you have to do is just go back to square one where the FACT is palestinian land was taken from them, and they were not allowed back, and they're living in a concentration camp that is blocked from any outside aid, and israel continues to take more land and bulid more settlements to sabotage ANY PEACE TALKS. this isn't opinion. These are FACTS. Yes palestinians land was taken from them by the British. who the (bleep) are the british to decide that on behalf of the palestinians? Yes, the palestinians are living and have been living in a concentration camp. No aid allowed, indiscriminate killings, unwarranted arrests and raids. bulldoze their homes. its one small plot of land with over a million people caged inside in it like animals. Israel "oh we want peace..lets get peace talks started............while we also build some more settlements on disputed lands...yes we want peace" LOL. yea..they want peace alright..

ethnically cleansing a group of caged people and then with their brainwashing ways through the media "they are using civilians as shield..." and that is your GO TO MOVE. how about you look at the situation and call it for what it is. you got close to 2 million people in a little "strip" of land. where can hamas go and not be around civilians? you're telling me israel has the 2nd most sophisticated weaponry in the WORLD, and they can't distinguish between a person shooting rockets and children playing soccer on the beach? why are you a coward? if you're going to support a terrorist regime, have some balls and own up to it. say it. quit trying to defend that which you CANT. you CANT justify israels genocide. but yet you're here trying to do that.

So what you're going to do is type up your one sided rebuttal. And then come back to this and read it again, so that you understand why Israel is at fault. Why ANY human, any group of people on planet earth would do the same thing. YOU would do what the palestinians are doing. Seriously though. Hamas is throwing rockets at israel? go back to square one and see why they're doing it. Hamas calls for israel's destruction? go back to suare one. they are celebrating the capture of an israeli soldier..go back to square one. Square one being the land taken from them and then being enclosed to a strip of land with nearly 2 milllion people. And then add to the mix the random unwarranted arrests, the children being killed, the parents and relatives being killed during bombings. all that does is fuel the fire that israel has lit. so you're telling me it is OK for a group of people to take something from another group...as if that wasn't bad enough, then trap them and deprive them of any outside aid. and carry out the atrocities that israel has for the past 40 years..and the group that had their land, rights, dignity taken away, they're supposed to just be ok with it? you would be ok with that?? im sick of your biased one-sided takes. if you're going to be inhumane and biased, dont post. you diminish your credibility..whatever of it is left.

and it just hit me..you have got to be one of israel's internet soldiers. lol. pathetic.


Yes, I should stop my one-sided posts. I should stop defending terrorists. I should stop excusing everything that does not work in my narrative.

Have you looked in a (bleep) mirror lately? Good grief.

By the way, in case you need to refresh, here is the definition of a fact: [noun]a thing that is indisputably the case. Just in case you want to brush up on big, complex words before you try to use them in an argument.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
LakersChamps04 wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
The first example I posted about (Final Destination pictures) was circulated by BBC. No spin - just a fact. I'd love to see the pictures/videos of IDF soldiers beating women and children though, especially from one of the sources you claim to use.


How about this one Jeffs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/tariq-abu-khdeir-beaten_n_5565266.html

It's pretty laughable to hear you question other people's biases and neutralities.

After all, you are one of those who resort to oversimplified labeling of those who don't share your exact views.


Addressed it above. Thanks for reading my post. I have already noted that I am not and do not claim to be neutral on the issue, but when others use isolated incidents, occurring during war, which have been both condemned and punished (or are in the process), to show that Israel has a policy of such things, I'm going to speak up.

In a conflict like this, both sides genuinely hate each other. That means that soldiers make mistakes. Just like police officers make mistakes in the US, where I haven't seen anyone accuse the federal government of ordering officers to detain and attack minorities. Ultimately, only one of the sides celebrates and encourages things like what happened to Tariq Abu Khdeir (and worse). That side isn't Israel


Really? But Israelis applauding airstrikes that are known to be coming with civilian casualties is OK?

Can you stop the BS please? It'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you didn't so blatantly dismiss Israeli culpability and inappropriate actions. You chastise others for allegedly "supporting terrorists" because they don't share your views on the conflict, yet you excuse away unacceptable actions by the Israelis. It's a bit gross and does nothing but hurt your claims.


Not excusing anything away. I simply find it ridiculous that the actions of a minority on one side are exaggerated to include everyone (including leadership), whereas the actions of a majority on the other side are wholly ignored by some posters here.

A town under constant bombardment for YEARS celebrates missiles that are supposed to destroy the sites that have been attacking them, while the other side celebrates suicide bombers and encourages other young adults and children to follow in their footsteps.

What you just completely FAIL to grasp and understand is the whole basis that their homes and lands have been taken from them. ok ok, nevermind that even. How about that the palestinians are living in a CONCENTRATION CAMP. do you even (bleep) understand that aspect? can you step out side of your israeli bubble and see what all that entails? any claim you make against hamas and palestinians as a whole, all you have to do is just go back to square one where the FACT is palestinian land was taken from them, and they were not allowed back, and they're living in a concentration camp that is blocked from any outside aid, and israel continues to take more land and bulid more settlements to sabotage ANY PEACE TALKS. this isn't opinion. These are FACTS. Yes palestinians land was taken from them by the British. who the (bleep) are the british to decide that on behalf of the palestinians? Yes, the palestinians are living and have been living in a concentration camp. No aid allowed, indiscriminate killings, unwarranted arrests and raids. bulldoze their homes. its one small plot of land with over a million people caged inside in it like animals. Israel "oh we want peace..lets get peace talks started............while we also build some more settlements on disputed lands...yes we want peace" LOL. yea..they want peace alright..

ethnically cleansing a group of caged people and then with their brainwashing ways through the media "they are using civilians as shield..." and that is your GO TO MOVE. how about you look at the situation and call it for what it is. you got close to 2 million people in a little "strip" of land. where can hamas go and not be around civilians? you're telling me israel has the 2nd most sophisticated weaponry in the WORLD, and they can't distinguish between a person shooting rockets and children playing soccer on the beach? why are you a coward? if you're going to support a terrorist regime, have some balls and own up to it. say it. quit trying to defend that which you CANT. you CANT justify israels genocide. but yet you're here trying to do that.

So what you're going to do is type up your one sided rebuttal. And then come back to this and read it again, so that you understand why Israel is at fault. Why ANY human, any group of people on planet earth would do the same thing. YOU would do what the palestinians are doing. Seriously though. Hamas is throwing rockets at israel? go back to square one and see why they're doing it. Hamas calls for israel's destruction? go back to suare one. they are celebrating the capture of an israeli soldier..go back to square one. Square one being the land taken from them and then being enclosed to a strip of land with nearly 2 milllion people. And then add to the mix the random unwarranted arrests, the children being killed, the parents and relatives being killed during bombings. all that does is fuel the fire that israel has lit. so you're telling me it is OK for a group of people to take something from another group...as if that wasn't bad enough, then trap them and deprive them of any outside aid. and carry out the atrocities that israel has for the past 40 years..and the group that had their land, rights, dignity taken away, they're supposed to just be ok with it? you would be ok with that?? im sick of your biased one-sided takes. if you're going to be inhumane and biased, dont post. you diminish your credibility..whatever of it is left.

and it just hit me..you have got to be one of israel's internet soldiers. lol. pathetic.


Yes, I should stop my one-sided posts. I should stop defending terrorists. I should stop excusing everything that does not work in my narrative.

Have you looked in a (bleep) mirror lately? Good grief.

By the way, in case you need to refresh, here is the definition of a fact: [noun]a thing that is indisputably the case. Just in case you want to brush up on big, complex words before you try to use them in an argument.

ah you're just a special one.

please tell me which fact i stated isn't a fact.

again here are the facts i claimed:
- palestinians had their land taken from them..the group of indigenous people from that area. (do you know what indigenous means?) mandated by the british of course..lol
- palestinians live in one giant concentration camp
- palestinians are not allowed any outside aid
- unwarranted arrests of palestinians whenever the israelis feel like
- indiscriminate murder of children/elderly/women in disguise of "we are doing it for the safety of our people" yes, that 4 year old posed a realll big threat to your existence.

ill just stop there. please show me how those aren't facts.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject:

Literally none of that is factual. You managed to make a post without a single fact. That's damned impressive. I'm not going to address it all point by point again. Read the thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to the reason there is such a strong alliance between Israel and the United States. It's something I've never understood.


The Israeli Lobby aka AIPAC, the largest and most powerful lobby in the United States, donates millions of dollars to Democrats and Republicans. AIPAC's biggest donors consist of some of the richest men in the world such as Sheldon Adelson, the billionaire and single largest donor to the Republican party. If any politician dare even question Israel, they will lose all their funding and most likely their position of power. This is why Benjamin Netanyahu received more standing ovations in Congress than our own President. This is why the only issue in the US that gets 100% bipartisan support in Congress is universal support for Israel, unquestioned. They can massacre civilians as they are doing right now and our politicians will not utter one word. Any other conflict such as the 2003 invasion of Iraq, we saw multiple politicians speak out against it.

We see genuine debate amongst our politicians on every single subject, from the border crisis, to the Russia-Ukraine standoff to possible intervention in Syria, but the only subject that amazingly has full support on both sides of the aisle is our "firm commitment to the nation of Israel". Somehow it's the only issue in the world that Democrats and Republicans agree on. It makes you wonder, until you realize why that is. And if for some reason you do criticize Israel, the fear is that you will be labeled as an anti-semite (as someone will surely call me very soon). There is a stark difference between Judaism and Zionism, mind you. Judaism preaches peace, Zionism is the belief that God has given his land to the Jewish people and they have every right to take that land by any means necessary.

There are actually a lot of Jews that are against the Israeli regime but they don't get mainstream airplay:

There's a group called Breaking The Silence with former IDF soldiers speaking out:


But every now and then you'll hear what our politicians really think when the mic is off. Case in point, John Kerry's remarks earlier today on Fox News when he thought his microphone was off, and he was criticizing Israel's targeting of civilians. When he came back on camera he resorted to his standard rehearsed lines. They know better than to criticize their pimp hand. Obama was caught off mic criticizing Netanyahu a few years back, and he suffered for that pretty badly.

The good thing is that now with social media, slowly but surely the true nature of the Israeli regime is being revealed. You might not see it on CNN or Fox News but the pictures and videos are out there for the world to see, children with their arms and heads blown off, IDF forces beating, kicking women and children out of their homes at gunpoint, etc. This story isn't as black and white as you are lead to believe ("Hamas shoots rockets, Israel retaliates"). This is the new age apartheid regime and it's important to stand on the right side of history.

I had a feeling it was/is all about the Benjamin's. If true it's rather shameful politicians put money before the lives of innocent women, children and of course men.

Obama came the closest I've seen any elected come to saying something not favorable about Israel.

Money and _ _ _ _ _, insert your thought, are the root of all evil.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
I simply find it ridiculous that the actions of a minority on one side are exaggerated to include everyone (including leadership), whereas the actions of a majority on the other side are wholly ignored by some posters here.


I don't know about the majority and minority stuff. Maybe you're right, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that it isn't a majority on both sides.


Agreed. It's not the lopsided world that Jeffs would like people to believe. One need only look at the venom and contempt that those who fall on the pro-Israeli side display towards the people of Palestine to see that it runs deep, unwavering and more importantly consistently amongst them. In fact, in is so engrained in the Israeli psyche, that the few Israelis who have reservations about the nations policies are reluctant to speak out. And that's not because those that hold Palestinians with outright contempt are the minority.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:58 am    Post subject:

When the three teens were allegedly killed by Hamas.. Israel started this military campaign on the ground

They kidnapped/arrested 250 Palestinians and destroyed buildings and killed 9 or more people.. Of those 250 were 51 people who were released in a previous prisoner exchange

See Israel makes their own laws.
Make a prisoner exchange and then invade and destroy property and murder innocent citizens to recapture the exchanged prisoners.
Injustice anywhere is Injustice everywhere..
Innocent until proven guilty is what all those Jewish lawyers say unless it is in the capture or MURDER of innocent Palestinians

Shouldn't Israels recapture of people THEY AGREED TO RELEASE..Be considered TERRORISM?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

Israel has zero respect for the humans they have in the concentration camps known as Gaza and the west bank...

Netanyahu is supposedly not even allowed to be prime minister because he still holds dual citizenship in the US. His records locked in both countries

http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/173-washington-report-archives-1994-1999/october-1996/2198-spook-terrorist-or-criminal-americas-mysterious-files-on-netanyahu-.html

Quote:
Nevertheless, Netanyahu’s files differ from those of most U.S. citizens. The Israeli weekly Ha’irreports that four requests for credit approval appear in U.S. social security file number 020-36-4537. Under each request one finds a different name: Benjamin Netanyahu, Benjamin Nitai, John Jay Sullivan and John Jay Sullivan Jr.—one man, four names.

According to Israeli law, a person who runs for the Knesset (the Israeli parliament) cannot hold dual citizenship. Netanyahu claims that in 1982 he gave up his U.S. citizenship, yet he is unwilling to grant the press access to his file located in the U.S. Embassy in Tel-Aviv—the file which holds information regarding his citizenship. Interestingly, the status of his files in the U.S. has not changed, so according to U.S. law Netanyahu remains a U.S. citizen.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject:

C M B wrote:
In a conflict that cannot be cleanly blamed on one side over the other, Israel wins the high ground because of the Girls of the IDF.

Your move, Palestine.


Now thats what im talkin' 'bout.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:
Literally none of that is factual. You managed to make a post without a single fact. That's damned impressive. I'm not going to address it all point by point again. Read the thread.


Jiffypop, your schtick has gotten so damn old. You're a real piece of work kid. Pompous, ignorant & heartless, the holy trinity.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject:

Dladi Vidac wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
Literally none of that is factual. You managed to make a post without a single fact. That's damned impressive. I'm not going to address it all point by point again. Read the thread.


Jiffypop, your schtick has gotten so damn old. You're a real piece of work kid. Pompous, ignorant & heartless, the holy trinity.


Thanks for adding to the thread. Your contribution is about on par with all of your other contributions to the site.
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