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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
I never said that global warming wasn't real, just that it is something that we cannot control.


The fact that you so blatantly ignore every time this issue comes up is that the activities and policies we engage in do influence Global Warming. There's no doubt that industrialization has impacted the process speeding it up and increasing its impact[/quote]

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I realize that it is a big political issue and that many have made millions off of it,


It's a political issue which is why you ignore the facts - because those facts interfere with your political position. When you say people have made millions, that would be the oil companies etc. who profit from practices that contribute the increased effects of Global Warming - and my guess is this another reason you dig in to the stance that ignores the human influence on the process.

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but the facts are that the Earth started warming when humans were infants and will continue to do so until the global weather patterns change and a new ice age begins. We can do things to keep us safe from other humans that want to harm us, I think that is where we should concentrate most of our resources.


We should concentrate ours resources on doing anything we can to help promote and preserve the lives of people all around the world - including those who are facing severe conditions directly related to the increasing effects of man's influence on the process of Global Warming.
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject:

So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


Sure, because if I said the biggest priority in my home budget is to pay the mortgage, that means I don't give a (bleep) about the phone bill or the car payment, right?
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?


No, just not ignore its impact.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


I agree that Sanders' comment is over the top, though what else is new with Sanders? Having said that, global warming does have an impact on national security. Weather fluctuations create instability, and instability breeds conflict and refugee/immigration issues.

I'm not sold that global warming caused the famine in Syria, though. Maybe it did (and there is some scientific support for this), but droughts have happened throughout history. There is going to be a tendency by some people to blame every weather event on global warming.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:44 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


I agree that Sanders' comment is over the top, though what else is new with Sanders? Having said that, global warming does have an impact on national security. Weather fluctuations create instability, and instability breeds conflict and refugee/immigration issues.

I'm not sold that global warming caused the famine in Syria, though. Maybe it did (and there is some scientific support for this), but droughts have happened throughout history. There is going to be a tendency by some people to blame every weather event on global warming.


That's fair, but these droughts were consistent with the shifting temp and moisture pattern with rising global temps. And it's going to get worse. There is farmland already gone, and more will soon leave, while populations increase. Oh, and the hardest hit regions also happen to have serious stability issues.
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


Sure, because if I said the biggest priority in my home budget is to pay the mortgage, that means I don't give a (bleep) about the phone bill or the car payment, right?


Both of those are set expenses.

With both global warming and the war on terror, the hope is that as you increase focus, money, time, and energy you will be more effective. But those resources are not unlimited.

What is most important right now?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject:

He said global warming is the biggest national security threat going forward. Key phrase.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
He said global warming is the biggest national security threat going forward. Key phrase.


Going forward from when? Now?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
24 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


Sure, because if I said the biggest priority in my home budget is to pay the mortgage, that means I don't give a (bleep) about the phone bill or the car payment, right?


Both of those are set expenses.

With both global warming and the war on terror, the hope is that as you increase focus, money, time, and energy you will be more effective. But those resources are not unlimited.

What is most important right now?


Way to dodge the question.
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
24 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


Sure, because if I said the biggest priority in my home budget is to pay the mortgage, that means I don't give a (bleep) about the phone bill or the car payment, right?


Both of those are set expenses.

With both global warming and the war on terror, the hope is that as you increase focus, money, time, and energy you will be more effective. But those resources are not unlimited.

What is most important right now?


Way to dodge the question.


Your question didn't apply because it was a poor analogy. But I did address it anyway, just not in the way that you would like.
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
He said global warming is the biggest national security threat going forward. Key phrase.


Going forward from when? Now?

Yes, but I'm sure you knew that.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
24 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
24 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?

And if another 9/11 happens, give even more for global warming? Maybe tax people for carbon credits? Make everyone vegetarians?


Sure, because if I said the biggest priority in my home budget is to pay the mortgage, that means I don't give a (bleep) about the phone bill or the car payment, right?


Both of those are set expenses.

With both global warming and the war on terror, the hope is that as you increase focus, money, time, and energy you will be more effective. But those resources are not unlimited.

What is most important right now?


Way to dodge the question.


Your question didn't apply because it was a poor analogy. But I did address it anyway, just not in the way that you would like.


It was a perfect analogy of a bad point, that being that if you prioritize one expense you don't care much about the other(s).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:29 am    Post subject:

I watched the debate last night and in context, I don't think what Sanders said was bad. I took it as him talking about a long-term vision of what could affect our nation and this planet more than anything else. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I perceived his comments.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:43 am    Post subject:

That's right, Stu, but those comments were still a bit naive when made right after a terrorist attack.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject:

Glenn Greenwald defends Snowden from the post-Paris backlash:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/glenn-greenwald-irrational-to-blame-snowden-leaks-for-paris-terrorists_564b4005e4b08cda348a7d00

I don't want to rehash the whole Snowden thing. I have made my disdain for Snowden very clear in the past. We don't need to go there again.

However, this is an interesting example of the tension between freedom and security. When people are scared, or when something bad happens, we (in the broad plural sense) put a lot more weight on security. This is the same instinct that led to the Patriot Act and other abuses of civil liberties. When people feel safe, we put a lot more weight on freedom. There has to be a balance, and we have to guard against overreacting either way.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's right, Stu, but those comments were still a bit naive when made right after a terrorist attack.




Agree completely there.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:25 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?


No, just not ignore its impact.


Who's saying that we should ignore its impact?

Whether someone believes a majority of it is man-caused or natural doesn't change the fact that the climate will change no matter what we do. We will have to adjust and find solutions to deal with these changes.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject:

I'm curious to see what effect this refugee situation has on both sides of the campaign trail, especially since three swing states (Ohio, Florida & Nevada) are opposed to resettlement.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:03 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's right, Stu, but those comments were still a bit naive when made right after a terrorist attack.


I am quite public about the fact that i like a number of Bernie's ideas, as well as the fact that because of his ideas and his willingness to say them, he has little chance of being elected, and no chance of successfully implementing most of his ideas if he were. But I admire his honesty and courage, no more so than here. It is politically naive to say that, but morally and pragmatically, anything but. Isis will almost certainly kill, displace, and destabilize less people than the effects of climate change, and in comparison, is like drug use and gang violence vs the problems of poverty and disenfranchisement of so many people in this country. One is more immediate, sexy, and scary, but the other is larger and more globally important.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
So is the left's consensus on this site that the best thing we could do right now for national security to increase funding to battle global warming?


No, just not ignore its impact.


Who's saying that we should ignore its impact?

Whether someone believes a majority of it is man-caused or natural doesn't change the fact that the climate will change no matter what we do. We will have to adjust and find solutions to deal with these changes.


Indeed. And how we do that is one of the most profound decisions we need to make as a species. And it is going to trump a lot of conflicts (not to mention exacerbate them and create others) we currently are dealing with.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's right, Stu, but those comments were still a bit naive when made right after a terrorist attack.


I am quite public about the fact that i like a number of Bernie's ideas, as well as the fact that because of his ideas and his willingness to say them, he has little chance of being elected, and no chance of successfully implementing most of his ideas if he were. But I admire his honesty and courage, no more so than here. It is politically naive to say that, but morally and pragmatically, anything but. Isis will almost certainly kill, displace, and destabilize less people than the effects of climate change, and in comparison, is like drug use and gang violence vs the problems of poverty and disenfranchisement of so many people in this country. One is more immediate, sexy, and scary, but the other is larger and more globally important.


Very well articulated. I feel the same way about Bernie Sanders. The only thing that gives me some hope is that some of the platforms Barrack Obama campaigned on in 2008 like national healthcare were considered radical back then.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:47 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's right, Stu, but those comments were still a bit naive when made right after a terrorist attack.


I am quite public about the fact that i like a number of Bernie's ideas, as well as the fact that because of his ideas and his willingness to say them, he has little chance of being elected, and no chance of successfully implementing most of his ideas if he were. But I admire his honesty and courage, no more so than here. It is politically naive to say that, but morally and pragmatically, anything but. Isis will almost certainly kill, displace, and destabilize less people than the effects of climate change, and in comparison, is like drug use and gang violence vs the problems of poverty and disenfranchisement of so many people in this country. One is more immediate, sexy, and scary, but the other is larger and more globally important.


I see your point, but honestly I think it is overblown to argue that global warming is a national security issue. Yeah, I understand the rationale, and in fact I've supported that rationale in this thread. Just the same, a lot of things have an impact on national security -- the economy, education, immigration, trade, the energy market . . . you get the idea. When you cast global warming as a national security issue, to some extent you undermine the cause by opening yourself to ridicule.

When we think about "national security," we mean something more direct. Just because the effects of global warming have potential consequences for national security -- and pretty much everything else -- does not make it a national security issue. That's just unnecessary puffing.

Note that I do not disagree with Sanders' underlying principle. However, when you are trying to get people to focus on the consequences of global warming, you undermine your credibility when you puff.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:52 pm    Post subject:

Jindal is out.

Not that anyone really cares.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's right, Stu, but those comments were still a bit naive when made right after a terrorist attack.


I am quite public about the fact that i like a number of Bernie's ideas, as well as the fact that because of his ideas and his willingness to say them, he has little chance of being elected, and no chance of successfully implementing most of his ideas if he were. But I admire his honesty and courage, no more so than here. It is politically naive to say that, but morally and pragmatically, anything but. Isis will almost certainly kill, displace, and destabilize less people than the effects of climate change, and in comparison, is like drug use and gang violence vs the problems of poverty and disenfranchisement of so many people in this country. One is more immediate, sexy, and scary, but the other is larger and more globally important.


I couldn't sum things up any better than that. Agree completely.
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