Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 19865 Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
China Eastern Airlines is not a budget airline in china. Their fleet is quite new, wonder if this has human factor in it.
speculation I've read mentioned that aircraft do not descend vertically like that due to mechanical error; it was a suicidal pilot _________________ http://chickhearn.ytmnd.com/
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:00 pm Post subject:
C M B wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
China Eastern Airlines is not a budget airline in china. Their fleet is quite new, wonder if this has human factor in it.
speculation I've read mentioned that aircraft do not descend vertically like that due to mechanical error; it was a suicidal pilot
I'm obviously not an aeronautical engineer, but that was my first thought. A 90 degree angle with no other body roll or movement seems very intentional. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
The recreation of that flight doesn't look the same though. The plane was wobbling all over the place as it descended in that video. The china 737 flight was a straight beeline to the ground. _________________ KOBE
The recreation of that flight doesn't look the same though. The plane was wobbling all over the place as it descended in that video. The china 737 flight was a straight beeline to the ground.
Yep. That was the complete lack of body roll I mentioned. If that recreation is accurate, that plane was twisting as it came in. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
never seen a straight up nosedive like the one in this video
Haven't seen the link yet, but there were a couple of 737 crashes in the 90s that were nosedives. The one in Pittsburgh in 1994 the 2nd of its kind and the first was in the Middle East or the likes. Iirc, it was (at least then) the longest investigated crash in history because they had no iota what happened in either case to cause a huge yaw and then a straight noseplunge. Iirc again, it was a rudder/aileron condition at the right speed and pitch (after takeoffs) where a correction of the controls produced the opposite effect like a car skidding opposite of the way you try to steer out of it. That made the pilots overshoot the control in the wrong direction even harder. And I think the controls were hair trigger to correct the flaps under more normal speed/pitch. That's my best at halfassing an epi of Modern Marvels Engineering Disasters.
(edit) 1st crash was in Colorado which is easily confused for the Middle East. That happened on the day of the Rodney King video, so prolly didn't get wall-to-wall coverage like other crashes.
First accident and investigation
Main article: United Airlines Flight 585
On March 3, 1991, United Airlines Flight 585, a Boeing 737-200, crashed while attempting to land in Colorado Springs, Colorado. During the airplane's landing approach, the plane rolled to the right and pitched nose down into a vertical dive.[2]: ix The resulting crash destroyed the aircraft and killed all 25 people on board.[2]: ix
Although the NTSB investigated the accident, it was unable to conclusively identify the cause of the crash. The rudder PCU from Flight 585 was severely damaged, which prevented operational testing of the PCU.[3]: 47 A review of the flight crew's history determined that Flight 585's captain strictly adhered to operating procedures and had a conservative approach to flying.[3]: 47 A first officer who had previously flown with Flight 585's captain reported that the captain had indicated to him while landing in turbulent weather that the captain had no problem with declaring a go-around if the landing appeared unsafe.[3]: 48 The first officer was considered to be "very competent" by the captain on previous trips they had flown together.[3]: 48 The weather data available to the NTSB indicated that Flight 585 might have encountered a horizontal axis wind vortex that could have caused the aircraft to roll over, but this could not be shown conclusively to have happened or to have caused the rollover.[3]: 48–49
On December 8, 1992, the NTSB published a report that identified what the NTSB believed at the time to be the two most likely causes of the accident. The first possibility was that the airplane's directional control system had malfunctioned and caused the rudder to move in a manner that caused the accident. The second possibility was a weather disturbance that caused a sudden rudder movement or loss of control. The Board determined that it lacked sufficient evidence to conclude either theory as the probable cause of the accident.[2]: ix [3]: 49 This was only the fourth time in the NTSB's history that it had closed an investigation and published a final aircraft accident report where the probable cause was undetermined.[5]
Second accident
Main article: USAir Flight 427
On September 8, 1994, USAir Flight 427, a Boeing 737-300, crashed near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. While on approach to Pittsburgh International Airport, Flight 427 suddenly rolled to the left. Although the pilots were briefly able to roll right and level the plane, it rolled left a second time and the pilots were unable to recover.[3]: 4 The resulting crash killed all 132 people on board.[3]: 9 The NTSB realized early into its investigation that the crash of Flight 427 might have been caused by an unintended or uncommanded rudder movement, similar to the suspected (but not yet established) cause of the Flight 585 crash.[3]: 44 As a result, the NTSB conducted additional testing on United Flight 585's Parker-Hannifin PCU servo during its Flight 427 investigation.[2]: 73
One of the problems facing investigators was the relative lack of precision in the data produced by the Flight Data Recorder (FDR), which only recorded control inputs at periodic intervals with significant time gaps between samples, gaps during which no data was recorded no matter what the pilot did with the controls. This lack of precision led to it being possible for Boeing to interpret the data differently from the way the NTSB did, leading the manufacturer to suspect and insist that the pilot had responded incorrectly to a wake turbulence incident.[6]
At the request of the NTSB, data from the Penny & Giles quick access recorder (QAR) of a British Airways (BA) Boeing 747-400 was supplied to the NTSB by BA. The data was from a London-Bangkok flight in which the aircraft suffered an uncommanded elevator movement and momentary elevator reversal on take-off, the aircraft then landing safely. Operating alongside the FDR system, the QAR on BA's 747-400s, in conjunction with a Data Management Unit, received and recorded more aircraft parametric data, including control input values at a higher rate.[7] This BA data led to renewed suspicion of the similar valve design used on the 737 rudder. As a result of this earlier BA incident, Boeing had, in fact, modified the design of the 747 elevator servo system, and the modified system had been retroactively fitted to all 747-400s in service.[6] _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Last edited by non-player zealot on Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
China Eastern Airlines is not a budget airline in china. Their fleet is quite new, wonder if this has human factor in it.
speculation I've read mentioned that aircraft do not descend vertically like that due to mechanical error; it was a suicidal pilot
That would seem to make sense as I have never seen (as others said) a plane going straight down like that. Usually they are able to at least fight it somewhat and the plan isn't going straight down, no way anyone could survive that awful trajectory. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144469 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject:
C M B wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
China Eastern Airlines is not a budget airline in china. Their fleet is quite new, wonder if this has human factor in it.
speculation I've read mentioned that aircraft do not descend vertically like that due to mechanical error; it was a suicidal pilot
The pilot went from 29,000 feet to level off at 9,000 feet. According to people who know more about flying than I do, that is normal when there is a mechanical or pressurization problem. Less pressure on the plane and the occupants can breathe. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
China Eastern Airlines is not a budget airline in china. Their fleet is quite new, wonder if this has human factor in it.
speculation I've read mentioned that aircraft do not descend vertically like that due to mechanical error; it was a suicidal pilot
That would seem to make sense as I have never seen (as others said) a plane going straight down like that. Usually they are able to at least fight it somewhat and the plan isn't going straight down, no way anyone could survive that awful trajectory.
I'm obviously not an aeronautical engineer, but that was my first thought. A 90 degree angle with no other body roll or movement seems very intentional.
The plane tried to recover at 7,000 ft.
Quote:
China Eastern Flight 5735 was traveling 455 knots (523 mph, 842 kph) at around 29,000 feet when it entered a steep and fast dive around 2:20 p.m. local time, according to data from flight-tracking website FlightRadar24.com. The plane plunged to 7,400 feet before briefly regaining about 1,200 feel in altitude, then dove again.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:00 am Post subject:
Any chance some on board had lost consciousness before impact given the speed and angle of crash? I personally have never seen video of a plane taking that angle to the ground....
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:40 am Post subject:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
C M B wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
China Eastern Airlines is not a budget airline in china. Their fleet is quite new, wonder if this has human factor in it.
speculation I've read mentioned that aircraft do not descend vertically like that due to mechanical error; it was a suicidal pilot
That would seem to make sense as I have never seen (as others said) a plane going straight down like that. Usually they are able to at least fight it somewhat and the plan isn't going straight down, no way anyone could survive that awful trajectory.
Looks like they tried to recover at 7,000 ft.
That certainly indicates it wasn't likely to be intentional. Still strange ut become completely vertical in a few thousand feet. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
i'm sure CCP will block any information if this was indeed caused by pilot suicide. they want to paint a rosey picture in China, everyone's happy blah blah blah. watch them stir up anti-American sentiment by blame this on Boeing.
i'm sure CCP will block any information if this was indeed caused by pilot suicide. they want to paint a rosey picture in China, everyone's happy blah blah blah. watch them stir up anti-American sentiment by blame this on Boeing.
I expect them to use this as an opportunity for their domestic airlines to buy more COMAC jets instead of Boeings.
i'm sure CCP will block any information if this was indeed caused by pilot suicide. they want to paint a rosey picture in China, everyone's happy blah blah blah. watch them stir up anti-American sentiment by blame this on Boeing.
I expect them to use this as an opportunity for their domestic airlines to buy more COMAC jets instead of Boeings.
yeah definitely, with CCP you just can't rule out if the crash was not an "accident".
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13823 Location: Boulder ;)
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:12 pm Post subject:
What if Hackers took over the plane? It must be possible by now
The Lone Gunman Pilot Episode 9/11 Fox TV show said a rogue group within the US Military took remote control of the 747 and were targeting the world trade center...
The first episode aired on March 4, 2001. Its title was Pilot. In the show, a computer hacker takes control of a Boeing 727 passenger plane and flies it towards the World Trade Center, with the specific intention of crashing the plane into one of the Twin Towers. It’s only at the very last moment that the Lone Gunmen are able to hack the hacker and avert disaster and death for those aboard the plane and those inside the World Trade Center.[2]
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:27 pm Post subject:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
What if Hackers took over the plane? It must be possible by now
The Lone Gunman Pilot Episode 9/11 Fox TV show said a rogue group within the US Military took remote control of the 747 and were targeting the world trade center...
The first episode aired on March 4, 2001. Its title was Pilot. In the show, a computer hacker takes control of a Boeing 727 passenger plane and flies it towards the World Trade Center, with the specific intention of crashing the plane into one of the Twin Towers. It’s only at the very last moment that the Lone Gunmen are able to hack the hacker and avert disaster and death for those aboard the plane and those inside the World Trade Center.[2]
For what purpose? What would hackers have to gain by crashing a random passenger plane into the ground? _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
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