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Freakout
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 Posted: Mon May 09, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | For those asking why the Vision wasn't involved much in the airport battle:
The Vision has the power to basically kill everyone as seen when he accidentally blasts War Machine with the mind stone. He knows he is the most powerful of the Avengers and takes a passive approach throughout the whole movie. Imo he was more likely there to make sure 1) they stopped team cap and 2) nobody was killed in the process. |
So you're telling me he could have literally flown down, grabbed Bucky(who would have been utterly powerless to stop him) and then flown him into custody somewhere, but he instead decides to allow everyone to fight each other(which was only a "safe" thing because plot), and then only at the end when Bucky is about to escape, decides to intervene and blast the hangar bay? |
You just cannot let this go. Using your logic, they did not need Captain America, Ironman, Black Widow, or Hawkeye in the 1st Avengers movie. They have always portrayed Hulk and Thor to be much weaker than their comic book adaptions. Hulk could have handled Loki by himself while Thor would kill the Chitari and save everyone else the trouble.
Why even have a Batman vs Superman fight? Superman could simply drop a building on top of Batman. |
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Lonzo-Lite
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Saw it yesterday, loved it!
Like that they balance story with the action. The fight in the airport wow!
I have to rewatch Ant-man again, I think he just became my favorite character.
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mhan00
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Freakout wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | For those asking why the Vision wasn't involved much in the airport battle:
The Vision has the power to basically kill everyone as seen when he accidentally blasts War Machine with the mind stone. He knows he is the most powerful of the Avengers and takes a passive approach throughout the whole movie. Imo he was more likely there to make sure 1) they stopped team cap and 2) nobody was killed in the process. |
So you're telling me he could have literally flown down, grabbed Bucky(who would have been utterly powerless to stop him) and then flown him into custody somewhere, but he instead decides to allow everyone to fight each other(which was only a "safe" thing because plot), and then only at the end when Bucky is about to escape, decides to intervene and blast the hangar bay? |
You just cannot let this go. Using your logic, they did not need Captain America, Ironman, Black Widow, or Hawkeye in the 1st Avengers movie. They have always portrayed Hulk and Thor to be much weaker than their comic book adaptions. Hulk could have handled Loki by himself while Thor would kill the Chitari and save everyone else the trouble.
Why even have a Batman vs Superman fight? Superman could simply drop a building on top of Batman. |
Pretty much this. Even supposing the first kryptonite gas canister caught Superman by surprise, it was just stupid that he got caught by the same trick twice after he got his powers back. Instead of using his super speed and ability to fly to just defeat Batman at that point, he lets Batman fumble his reload and then somehow shoot him in the face, AGAIN. |
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Nashlight wrote: | Saw it yesterday, loved it!
Like that they balance story with the action. The fight in the airport wow!
I have to rewatch Ant-man again, I think he just became my favorite character. |
I remember when Paul Rudd was announced for the role of Ant-Man. I thought, "Wow, Mr. Bromantic-Comedy? Really??".
Marvel has shown nothing but good judgment in the casting of their superheros even when people like me can't see it.
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USCandLakers
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| gng930 wrote: | You always have to suspend belief with movies of this nature. Though I thoroughly enjoyed the character, I also thought the inclusion of Spidey was contrived. The biggest hangup I had though was that
| spoiler alert (highlight to read) wrote: | | the villain planned an elaborate scheme to basically show Tony a video in the end. Ever heard of UPS or YouTube? |
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Spoilers below -
He killed all those people just to show Tony a video of his parents' murder? If he discovered the truth behind the Stark's murder through Hydra files(just as Cap did in TWS,) then why on earth did he not just send those files to Tony? If you break down his plan, it's complete nonsense that banked on a lot of things happening that were completely out of his control, and had him doing things he didn't really need to do.
I don't think this movie will age well. Kinda like The Avengers. Once the spectacle of seeing Spider-Man/Black Panther and the Avengers fighting each other wear off, which will come after we've seen them in their own movies(and after the next Avengers film), it will be judged for its technical elements, the things you initially ignore because awesome. The script, the plot, motivations, sense etc. I remember people saying The Avengers was better than TDK back when it first released. The novelty will wear off.
The Winter Soldier still holds up, though, because it's a sound movie in nearly all facets.
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | You always have to suspend belief with movies of this nature. Though I thoroughly enjoyed the character, I also thought the inclusion of Spidey was contrived. The biggest hangup I had though was that
| spoiler alert (highlight to read) wrote: | | the villain planned an elaborate scheme to basically show Tony a video in the end. Ever heard of UPS or YouTube? |
|
Spoilers below -
He killed all those people just to show Tony a video of his parents' murder? If he discovered the truth behind the Stark's murder through Hydra files(just as Cap did in TWS,) then why on earth did he not just send those files to Tony? If you break down his plan, it's complete nonsense that banked on a lot of things happening that were completely out of his control, and had him doing things he didn't really need to do.
I don't think this movie will age well. Kinda like The Avengers. Once the spectacle of seeing Spider-Man/Black Panther and the Avengers fighting each other wear off, which will come after we've seen them in their own movies(and after the next Avengers film), it will be judged for its technical elements, the things you initially ignore because awesome. The script, the plot, motivations, sense etc. I remember people saying The Avengers was better than TDK back when it first released. The novelty will wear off.
The Winter Soldier still holds up, though, because it's a sound movie in nearly all facets. |
If you're assuming there's a bulletproof plot in a super hero movie you're already barking up the wrong tree lol. Can easily tear apart the Nolan Batman movies and pretty much any other movie in the genre.
CW had no major plot holes that kill the movie to speak of. It's clear why Zemo didn't simply email the files to Tony. His battle with them was very emotional, very personal. He didn't want them to just argue, he wanted them to kill each other and he wanted to witness it. That couldn't be accomplished with a simple email. Remember Tony and Cap didn't even know where Bucky was since WS. So how could Tony go ballistic unless they were all in the same room at the moment when Tony learned the truth?
I thought having a villain who didn't try to out fight them was a stroke of genius. He was psychological villain who made them fight themselves. |
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Deathstroke
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think Vision was more powerful than Scarlet Witch in the movie. Didn't Wanda basically infiltrate Vision's mind stone and control him? |
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Clark Kent
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | You always have to suspend belief with movies of this nature. Though I thoroughly enjoyed the character, I also thought the inclusion of Spidey was contrived. The biggest hangup I had though was that
| spoiler alert (highlight to read) wrote: | | the villain planned an elaborate scheme to basically show Tony a video in the end. Ever heard of UPS or YouTube? |
|
Spoilers below -
He killed all those people just to show Tony a video of his parents' murder? If he discovered the truth behind the Stark's murder through Hydra files(just as Cap did in TWS,) then why on earth did he not just send those files to Tony? If you break down his plan, it's complete nonsense that banked on a lot of things happening that were completely out of his control, and had him doing things he didn't really need to do.
I don't think this movie will age well. Kinda like The Avengers. Once the spectacle of seeing Spider-Man/Black Panther and the Avengers fighting each other wear off, which will come after we've seen them in their own movies(and after the next Avengers film), it will be judged for its technical elements, the things you initially ignore because awesome. The script, the plot, motivations, sense etc. I remember people saying The Avengers was better than TDK back when it first released. The novelty will wear off.
The Winter Soldier still holds up, though, because it's a sound movie in nearly all facets. |
IMHO, Zemo is one of the more clever villains.
Everything he did served a purpose in his ultimate goal.
SPOILERS:
| Quote: | Zemo's goal was simple, break the Avengers.
Everything he did served a purpose:
In Zemo's mind the Accords would've just ratified the Avengers to have a UN overseer and make them more organized, he didn't want that. His purpose was to break up the Avengers. So he blew up the embassy (killing 11 people I think) while framing Bucky for it, 2 birds with 1 stone.
He then used Bucky's capture to gain access to information about the location of the Hydra base, then leads Bucky on a rampage.
After splitting the Avengers apart and leading Bucky and Cap to the Hydra base, he then purposely leaks intel about to Tony that Bucky was framed, so that Tony follows them too.
He makes sure to eliminate the other super soldiers while luring Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to kill each other inside an empty Hydra base but without causing another Sokovia type catastrophe.
In the end, he won. Zemo, the villain, won. The film ends with him never throwing a single punch but managing to break the Avengers apart.
The movie ends with the villain clearly having won. How often do you see that in a superhero movie?
In the end, the Accords were so worried about superheroes that it didn't see that one man could be more dangerous than all the superheroes in this world. |
Cleverly done.
Btw this movie will age well.
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22
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Excellent post Kent! |
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USCandLakers
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Clark Kent wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | You always have to suspend belief with movies of this nature. Though I thoroughly enjoyed the character, I also thought the inclusion of Spidey was contrived. The biggest hangup I had though was that
| spoiler alert (highlight to read) wrote: | | the villain planned an elaborate scheme to basically show Tony a video in the end. Ever heard of UPS or YouTube? |
|
Spoilers below -
He killed all those people just to show Tony a video of his parents' murder? If he discovered the truth behind the Stark's murder through Hydra files(just as Cap did in TWS,) then why on earth did he not just send those files to Tony? If you break down his plan, it's complete nonsense that banked on a lot of things happening that were completely out of his control, and had him doing things he didn't really need to do.
I don't think this movie will age well. Kinda like The Avengers. Once the spectacle of seeing Spider-Man/Black Panther and the Avengers fighting each other wear off, which will come after we've seen them in their own movies(and after the next Avengers film), it will be judged for its technical elements, the things you initially ignore because awesome. The script, the plot, motivations, sense etc. I remember people saying The Avengers was better than TDK back when it first released. The novelty will wear off.
The Winter Soldier still holds up, though, because it's a sound movie in nearly all facets. |
IMHO, Zemo is one of the more clever villains.
Everything he did served a purpose in his ultimate goal.
SPOILERS:
| Quote: | Zemo's goal was simple, break the Avengers.
Everything he did served a purpose:
In Zemo's mind the Accords would've just ratified the Avengers to have a UN overseer and make them more organized, he didn't want that. His purpose was to break up the Avengers. So he blew up the embassy (killing 11 people I think) while framing Bucky for it, 2 birds with 1 stone.
He then used Bucky's capture to gain access to information about the location of the Hydra base, then leads Bucky on a rampage.
After splitting the Avengers apart and leading Bucky and Cap to the Hydra base, he then purposely leaks intel about to Tony that Bucky was framed, so that Tony follows them too.
He makes sure to eliminate the other super soldiers while luring Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to kill each other inside an empty Hydra base but without causing another Sokovia type catastrophe.
In the end, he won. Zemo, the villain, won. The film ends with him never throwing a single punch but managing to break the Avengers apart.
The movie ends with the villain clearly having won. How often do you see that in a superhero movie?
In the end, the Accords were so worried about superheroes that it didn't see that one man could be more dangerous than all the superheroes in this world. |
Cleverly done.
Btw this movie will age well. |
So his plan hinged on Falcon telling Tony where they were going?
| Quote: |
CW had no major plot holes that kill the movie to speak of. It's clear why Zemo didn't simply email the files to Tony. His battle with them was very emotional, very personal. He didn't want them to just argue, he wanted them to kill each other and he wanted to witness it. That couldn't be accomplished with a simple email. Remember Tony and Cap didn't even know where Bucky was since WS. So how could Tony go ballistic unless they were all in the same room at the moment when Tony learned the truth? |
He wanted to witness it, yet, while they were fighting, he walked away and was about to put a bullet in his head?
How did his plan work? At the end of the movie Cap sends a letter to Tony telling him that he'll be there when he needs him. And they will clearly unite in IW. The Accords did more to break the Avengers apart than Zemo. All Zemo did was deliver the information that made Tony angry with Bucky, something he could have done without the ridiculous plan. As soon as he acquired the information behind the Stark's death, that information could have easily been relayed to Tony without all the shenanigans.
The only difference between just sending the documents to Tony and showing Tony the video at the bunker, was the fact that Tony, Bucky and Cap were all in the same room at the end. Think about the circumstances behind them all being there...
I totally get his plan. I see each step and its purpose. But the plan was entirely unnecessary and convoluted, and one can only assume the reason he choose path A instead of path B was so we could have a movie to watch.
For all his planning, what would he have done if Stark already knew Bucky killed his parents? What if Cap had already told him? What if Tony found out through the files? We are given no indication that this Zemo character has any more knowledge of the Avengers than the public does. He was banking on things being that he could not have possibly known.
| Quote: |
IMHO, Zemo is one of the more clever villains. |
In simplicity lies genius.
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Lonzo-Lite
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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@USCandLakers
What's your deal? Be courteous to others. Please hide your spoilers.
Also looking back at your posts, you only praise DC like Batman/Superman but you've criticized every Marvel film including Winter Soldier back in 2014, so don't say you like WS now so you can justify nitpicking on CW.
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gng930
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Clark Kent wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | gng930 wrote: | You always have to suspend belief with movies of this nature. Though I thoroughly enjoyed the character, I also thought the inclusion of Spidey was contrived. The biggest hangup I had though was that
| spoiler alert (highlight to read) wrote: | | the villain planned an elaborate scheme to basically show Tony a video in the end. Ever heard of UPS or YouTube? |
|
Spoilers below -
He killed all those people just to show Tony a video of his parents' murder? If he discovered the truth behind the Stark's murder through Hydra files(just as Cap did in TWS,) then why on earth did he not just send those files to Tony? If you break down his plan, it's complete nonsense that banked on a lot of things happening that were completely out of his control, and had him doing things he didn't really need to do.
I don't think this movie will age well. Kinda like The Avengers. Once the spectacle of seeing Spider-Man/Black Panther and the Avengers fighting each other wear off, which will come after we've seen them in their own movies(and after the next Avengers film), it will be judged for its technical elements, the things you initially ignore because awesome. The script, the plot, motivations, sense etc. I remember people saying The Avengers was better than TDK back when it first released. The novelty will wear off.
The Winter Soldier still holds up, though, because it's a sound movie in nearly all facets. |
IMHO, Zemo is one of the more clever villains.
Everything he did served a purpose in his ultimate goal.
SPOILERS:
| Quote: | Zemo's goal was simple, break the Avengers.
Everything he did served a purpose:
In Zemo's mind the Accords would've just ratified the Avengers to have a UN overseer and make them more organized, he didn't want that. His purpose was to break up the Avengers. So he blew up the embassy (killing 11 people I think) while framing Bucky for it, 2 birds with 1 stone.
He then used Bucky's capture to gain access to information about the location of the Hydra base, then leads Bucky on a rampage.
After splitting the Avengers apart and leading Bucky and Cap to the Hydra base, he then purposely leaks intel about to Tony that Bucky was framed, so that Tony follows them too.
He makes sure to eliminate the other super soldiers while luring Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to kill each other inside an empty Hydra base but without causing another Sokovia type catastrophe.
In the end, he won. Zemo, the villain, won. The film ends with him never throwing a single punch but managing to break the Avengers apart.
The movie ends with the villain clearly having won. How often do you see that in a superhero movie?
In the end, the Accords were so worried about superheroes that it didn't see that one man could be more dangerous than all the superheroes in this world. |
Cleverly done.
Btw this movie will age well. |
So his plan hinged on Falcon telling Tony where they were going?
| Quote: |
CW had no major plot holes that kill the movie to speak of. It's clear why Zemo didn't simply email the files to Tony. His battle with them was very emotional, very personal. He didn't want them to just argue, he wanted them to kill each other and he wanted to witness it. That couldn't be accomplished with a simple email. Remember Tony and Cap didn't even know where Bucky was since WS. So how could Tony go ballistic unless they were all in the same room at the moment when Tony learned the truth? |
He wanted to witness it, yet, while they were fighting, he walked away and was about to put a bullet in his head?
How did his plan work? At the end of the movie Cap sends a letter to Tony telling him that he'll be there when he needs him. And they will clearly unite in IW. The Accords did more to break the Avengers apart than Zemo. All Zemo did was deliver the information that made Tony angry with Bucky, something he could have done without the ridiculous plan. As soon as he acquired the information behind the Stark's death, that information could have easily been relayed to Tony without all the shenanigans.
The only difference between just sending the documents to Tony and showing Tony the video at the bunker, was the fact that Tony, Bucky and Cap were all in the same room at the end. Think about the circumstances behind them all being there...
I totally get his plan. I see each step and its purpose. But the plan was entirely unnecessary and convoluted, and one can only assume the reason he choose path A instead of path B was so we could have a movie to watch.
For all his planning, what would he have done if Stark already knew Bucky killed his parents? What if Cap had already told him? What if Tony found out through the files? We are given no indication that this Zemo character has any more knowledge of the Avengers than the public does. He was banking on things being that he could not have possibly known.
| Quote: |
IMHO, Zemo is one of the more clever villains. |
In simplicity lies genius. |
Yes agree, any build-up that Zemo's plan produced was completely nullified once Tony discovered the frame plot. Ok sure, bring Bucky out of hiding and force Cap to admit he's alive and well and stand up for him. Send video...done. After all, Bucky is not an Avenger so a Tony-Bucky conflict is irrelevant for the purpose of breaking up the Avengers.
As I've said, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie just for its scale but the grand scheme left me wanting. I would've enjoyed it more if Zemo did in fact resurrect the super soldiers and the Avengers united to take them down, followed by Tony's incidental discovery of the truth while exploring the contents of that old base. Reminded me a lot of the last James Bond with a very capable villain and organization but...
| spoiler alert wrote: | | All this just because daddy loved James more than you? |
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Lonzo-Lite
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | So his plan hinged on Falcon telling Tony where they were going?
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| Quote: | | Spoiler - Falcon was there when Bucky woke up and was telling Steve about the base. I have no problems with him sharing this info with Tony if he believed Tony was going to help them especially after seeing what happened to Rhodey. They were friends first before enemies. |
Of all the nitpicks, I mean it's not like Tony had just met Falcon and told him that both their mom's share the same first name Martha and everything became peachy 
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MagicMamba88
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pmacla
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 7:09 am Post subject: |
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I was entertained and really enjoyed the movie, I dont go to movies to pick them apart I go to have a good time and escape from reality for a couple hours.
I feel sorry for those who feel the need to pick apart every little thing about a movie |
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Saw it the other day. There was some good action and character beats (this Spiderman was a lot of fun) but I can't help but feel we've reached critical mass here. It feels like they've got so many plates spinning at once we can't sit still long enough to enjoy much of it. Black Panther was cool, but we never got to explore him at all. Spidey shows up so the film can introduce him and then goes away because the movie doesn't need him anymore. I get that part of the appeal of these films is that there are so many heroes in the same place, but I think it's also bogging them down.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Valid, which is why both will be getting solo movies. |
Oh I'm aware of Marvel's 40 year plan. But even the solo movies are glorified launching pads for the next movie (just like this one). It's difficult to service anyone when the goal is servicing everyone.
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lakerjoshua
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Saw it the other day. There was some good action and character beats (this Spiderman was a lot of fun) but I can't help but feel we've reached critical mass here. It feels like they've got so many plates spinning at once we can't sit still long enough to enjoy much of it. Black Panther was cool, but we never got to explore him at all. Spidey shows up so the film can introduce him and then goes away because the movie doesn't need him anymore. I get that part of the appeal of these films is that there are so many heroes in the same place, but I think it's also bogging them down. |
"Stay down, you're done here"
I actually thought the way Tony shut him down and pulled him from the fight was a pretty cool nod to the comics/cartoons. Spiderman has always been kinda a wannabe avenger and is always being treated like a kid by the team. It's always been that way with Spiderman and the Avengers, it's like, ok you can tag along but don't get in the way and when we say you're done, go away. |
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22
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Quote: | | Valid, which is why both will be getting solo movies. |
Oh I'm aware of Marvel's 40 year plan. But even the solo movies are glorified launching pads for the next movie (just like this one). It's difficult to service anyone when the goal is servicing everyone. |
Gotcha.
They get you just enough to leave you wanting more every time. They're teases lol. And I'm hooked haha |
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pmacla
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| in what has become an increasingly dark society I really question why people want to see a dark Super Hero movie, Super Heroes where meant to be a light to dark times in life, Marvel I think with its moments of levity has captured that spirit perfectly without being cheesy and over the top, all in the same still maintaining a sense of grittiness and reality to mirror similarties in our society today |
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rwongega
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| pmacla wrote: | | in what has become an increasingly dark society I really question why people want to see a dark Super Hero movie, Super Heroes where meant to be a light to dark times in life, Marvel I think with its moments of levity has captured that spirit perfectly without being cheesy and over the top, all in the same still maintaining a sense of grittiness and reality to mirror similarties in our society today |
You're mistaken. Zack Snyder's superhero movies are just dark in camera filter. The rest is just hilariously awful.
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| rwongega wrote: | | pmacla wrote: | | in what has become an increasingly dark society I really question why people want to see a dark Super Hero movie, Super Heroes where meant to be a light to dark times in life, Marvel I think with its moments of levity has captured that spirit perfectly without being cheesy and over the top, all in the same still maintaining a sense of grittiness and reality to mirror similarties in our society today |
You're mistaken. Zack Snyder's superhero movies are just dark in camera filter. The rest is just hilariously awful. |
I think ocho described Snyder's directing perfectly, he is the Ed hardy of movies.
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rwongega
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | pmacla wrote: | | in what has become an increasingly dark society I really question why people want to see a dark Super Hero movie, Super Heroes where meant to be a light to dark times in life, Marvel I think with its moments of levity has captured that spirit perfectly without being cheesy and over the top, all in the same still maintaining a sense of grittiness and reality to mirror similarties in our society today |
You're mistaken. Zack Snyder's superhero movies are just dark in camera filter. The rest is just hilariously awful. |
I think ocho described Snyder's directing perfectly, he is the Ed hardy of movies. |
I concurred with that but that's still an insult of Ed Hardy.
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rwongega wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | pmacla wrote: | | in what has become an increasingly dark society I really question why people want to see a dark Super Hero movie, Super Heroes where meant to be a light to dark times in life, Marvel I think with its moments of levity has captured that spirit perfectly without being cheesy and over the top, all in the same still maintaining a sense of grittiness and reality to mirror similarties in our society today |
You're mistaken. Zack Snyder's superhero movies are just dark in camera filter. The rest is just hilariously awful. |
I think ocho described Snyder's directing perfectly, he is the Ed hardy of movies. |
I concurred with that but that's still an insult of Ed Hardy. |
y'all are savage  |
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