You're right, but lack of individual defense is also being made up with just good team defensive schemes. Kobe didn't cease to become a superstar franchise player when he essentially stopped playing defense. You may have to make up for their deficiencies, but there's no special reason why superstars have to be one of your best defenders. You may not be Miami, but you can make it work and win in a different way.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:56 am Post subject:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
You're right, but lack of individual defense is also being made up with just good team defensive schemes. Kobe didn't cease to become a superstar franchise player when he essentially stopped playing defense. You may have to make up for their deficiencies, but there's no special reason why superstars have to be one of your best defenders. You may not be Miami, but you can make it work and win in a different way.
The superstars are usually the best defenders, because they're the ones that have the best physical tools.
And, while it's perceived that Kobe dropped his level of defense, that wasn't the case during the championship years and even a few years after. He played against the elite perimeter guys when he had to. Even during the Bryant/Gasol championship runs, Bryant was among the leaders in PPP against and Opponent FG%, which were usually the primary reasons for him to be on the All Defensive 1st team. It was Kobe against Rondo. It was Kobe against Westbrook.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely get it about Jabari Parker, especially because his game so much more refined and he plays with especially high hoop IQ. He's the type that can make your team very efficient in a halfcourt set.
But, guys like Wiggins, who played especially well off-the-ball last night and was able to get out into transition, adds another dimension defensively and swinging momentum with the transition game.
You win with either guy. I'm just happy to see a stud prospect that doesn't die out mentally just because he doesn't have the basketball. He played within the system while other Kansas prospects were playing effectively. Once they lost their mojo, Wiggins stepped up. Parker couldn't count on Sulemon the entire 2nd half.
Also, another note about defense, that is what makes Miami a scary defensive team. They demonstrate Mike D's idea of defense with guard speed at all positions. But, they essentially have 2 man-defenders on the floor at all times, which allows Wade and LeBron to flood the wings for transition play. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Lets be honest here, defense doesn't make superstar players, offense does.
Agreed. But considering they keep softening the perimeter play, you can bet wingspan and quickness matter.
It especially mattered that Shaq and Bryant could play both ends. It took Nowitzki his entire career before he got his. The timing was right, and the right team had to be built around him to hide his deficiencies.
What is Miami prided on now? Defense into transition play.
But, I think too much is being made on Wiggins's first widely televised NCAA game against equal comp. I don't think he wimped out like everyone thinks/says he did.
He played well. And i like the way he closed. Plus it was almost a semi-home game for Parker. We have all season to compare these two kids. I think both will be real good. and I see why Wiggins is considered overall the better prospect due to speed and explosion. I prefer Jabari and I think parker is a more realistic "get" I think cracking the top 5 is possible doubt we get a top 3 pick ...I'm hoping Parker falls to us.
Surprised how many here dont rate exum that highly.
For me the only thing holding him back from becoming a franchise player is his shot. If he improves that and players respect him then he is going to go around almost anyone with his speed and size.
As for defense......... 6'6 quick point guard thats long and smart.
I think he actually has the potential thats close to wiggins and has less of a chance of a chance of not reaching it _________________ Jerome James being asked what he thought about his coach calling him selfish, his response was:
"I don't have the first clue who he is talking about, because all I worry about is Jerome."
Surprised how many here dont rate exum that highly.
For me the only thing holding him back from becoming a franchise player is his shot. If he improves that and players respect him then he is going to go around almost anyone with his speed and size.
As for defense......... 6'6 quick point guard thats long and smart.
I think he actually has the potential thats close to wiggins and has less of a chance of a chance of not reaching it
It's only because he's not playing college basketball.
Utah will do whatever they can to pick this guy because he is someone who will actually stay with them. So, if they're not picking 1st they'll trade up to get him. Will be nice for the team/s ahead of them.
Joined: 22 Apr 2001 Posts: 1677 Location: Cerritos, California
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject:
MambaMentality wrote:
So he's still just the 4th-6th best prospect? Really guys?
Don't let college ball fool you. I like Jabari, but he is not my top prospect. His lack of defense is telling. And, although some may say that superstars are about offense, lack of defense in college points to lack of athleticism.
He won't (I believe) score in the nba like he does in college. Beasley looked great in college, so did Jimmer Fredette. Conversely, someone like westbrook or derrick rose were not particularly impressive in college.
I see people get excited at plays where Jabari grabs a rebound and goes coast to coast. I'm not excited. First, it's just bad basketball at the next level unless you're as fast as westbrook and Lebron. He's not. Second, his handles are too high; I wouldn't call him a great dribbler. This is just one example. it looks great right now, but lots of his plays won't be the same at the next level.
Not to say that I don't like him. Is he playing better than Beasley played as a freshman? Is he a better freshman than Melo? Between Beasley and Melo there is quite the variance, and, even if he was as good as Melo, we all see Melo's limitations.
Joined: 22 Apr 2001 Posts: 1677 Location: Cerritos, California
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
^Ding ding.
I'd argue he's playing smarter than both, and maximizing his athletic talents. I'm really surprised at his team defense.
But best college player doesn't equate to #1 player for the draft.
Yeah, I agree that he plays smarter...especially than Beasley. Better team defense, but to me his foot speed for individual defense appears slower than Beasley and Melo.
Is his upside a smarter Carmelo Anthony? I think he will be great in the NBA, but I don't see him being as good as what people are talking about now.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject:
Corey78 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^Ding ding.
I'd argue he's playing smarter than both, and maximizing his athletic talents. I'm really surprised at his team defense.
But best college player doesn't equate to #1 player for the draft.
Yeah, I agree that he plays smarter...especially than Beasley. Better team defense, but to me his foot speed for individual defense appears slower than Beasley and Melo.
Is his upside a smarter Carmelo Anthony? I think he will be great in the NBA, but I don't see him being as good as what people are talking about now.
I think so. There's a certain approach to his moves that are simple, efficient, and far more effective. Anthony will do his thing and take a contested shot a spot he's comfortable with.
Parker will make a move to create an open shot, that he's comfortable with. None of his shots are outside of the context of an offense. He never kills ball-movement.
When he gets stronger, he becomes the Anthony/Nowitzki mix. Anthony never had touch that pure. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
You win Championships with players who can play defense, but at the same time can create their own shot anytime they want. Kobe Bryant is a prime example everyone who says he doesn't play defense. Just do me a favor & stop being Biased k? _________________
Kobe Bryant is a poor example. The years he doesn't play D, the Lakers don't win championships.
Otherwise, who hasn't he covered? Westbrook. Kidd. Rondo. etc. He's covered them all.
What's the difference between LeBron and Carmelo Anthony?
LeBron is willing to defend any position, at a high level, and it makes Miami elite defensively.
Carmelo, you need to hide him. No wonder why he never made it past 2nd round.
Melo made it to the West Finals. You should know, he played us.
In terms of playoff success, the difference between LeBron and Melo is that LeBron smartened up and hooked up with 2 other superstars after his playoff failures, and now he's winning championships, while Melo is still trying to do it on his own. Obviously LeBron is a better player, but let's not pretend Melo's lack of real success in the playoffs has to do with him or that LeBron didn't experience similar failure before joining 2 other superstars. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:49 am Post subject:
USCandLakers wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Kobe Bryant is a poor example. The years he doesn't play D, the Lakers don't win championships.
Otherwise, who hasn't he covered? Westbrook. Kidd. Rondo. etc. He's covered them all.
What's the difference between LeBron and Carmelo Anthony?
LeBron is willing to defend any position, at a high level, and it makes Miami elite defensively.
Carmelo, you need to hide him. No wonder why he never made it past 2nd round.
Melo made it to the West Finals. You should know, he played us.
In terms of playoff success, the difference between LeBron and Melo is that LeBron smartened up and hooked up with 2 other superstars after his playoff failures, and now he's winning championships, while Melo is still trying to do it on his own. Obviously LeBron is a better player, but let's not pretend Melo's lack of real success in the playoffs has to do with him or that LeBron didn't experience similar failure before joining 2 other superstars.
I disagree. Melo has the skill level and not the hoop IQ. He has shown flashes of playmaking, yet refuses to do it altogether as a #1 option. He repeatedly opts for low percentage shots from midrange. Bryant does that too, but at least offers better post game AND playmaking ability. It prevents the offense from becoming so stagnant with Iso play.
Then there's the defensive end.
This is why LeBron worked well with Wade and Bosh. He was a playmaker. He didn't kill ball-movement. He's versatile on defense. It wasn't purely because of Iso play.
The problem with Iso players is, they all want to be finishers and not playmakers. Iso play is fine, as long as a high percentage shot can be created in limited time. James Worthy comes to mind. You can argue that Nick Young and Jordan Farmar do a bit of this for the Laker team, but at least they're willing passers. Anthony is not as willing.
The team formula built around Iso play isn't easy either. The 76ers had an elite defensive team, but couldn't hit high enough FG% outside of Iverson, who also broke offensive balance.
Anthony as a finisher didn't work either. Otherwise NYK could ride Linsanity to no end. It's no surprise that once the ball movement died in Anthony's hands, NYK started losing. No more open shots. Less defensive intensity. More losses.
NYK kept their star. Not really working out for them that well. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Kobe Bryant is a poor example. The years he doesn't play D, the Lakers don't win championships.
Otherwise, who hasn't he covered? Westbrook. Kidd. Rondo. etc. He's covered them all.
What's the difference between LeBron and Carmelo Anthony?
LeBron is willing to defend any position, at a high level, and it makes Miami elite defensively.
Carmelo, you need to hide him. No wonder why he never made it past 2nd round.
Melo made it to the West Finals. You should know, he played us.
In terms of playoff success, the difference between LeBron and Melo is that LeBron smartened up and hooked up with 2 other superstars after his playoff failures, and now he's winning championships, while Melo is still trying to do it on his own. Obviously LeBron is a better player, but let's not pretend Melo's lack of real success in the playoffs has to do with him or that LeBron didn't experience similar failure before joining 2 other superstars.
I disagree. Melo has the skill level and not the hoop IQ. He has shown flashes of playmaking, yet refuses to do it altogether as a #1 option. He repeatedly opts for low percentage shots from midrange. Bryant does that too, but at least offers better post game AND playmaking ability. It prevents the offense from becoming so stagnant with Iso play.
Then there's the defensive end.
This is why LeBron worked well with Wade and Bosh. He was a playmaker. He didn't kill ball-movement. He's versatile on defense. It wasn't purely because of Iso play.
The problem with Iso players is, they all want to be finishers and not playmakers. Iso play is fine, as long as a high percentage shot can be created in limited time. James Worthy comes to mind. You can argue that Nick Young and Jordan Farmar do a bit of this for the Laker team, but at least they're willing passers. Anthony is not as willing.
The team formula built around Iso play isn't easy either. The 76ers had an elite defensive team, but couldn't hit high enough FG% outside of Iverson, who also broke offensive balance.
Anthony as a finisher didn't work either. Otherwise NYK could ride Linsanity to no end. It's no surprise that once the ball movement died in Anthony's hands, NYK started losing. No more open shots. Less defensive intensity. More losses.
NYK kept their star. Not really working out for them that well.
What are you disagreeing with again?
LeBron is a better player no doubt, but let's not pretend like Melo is the reason the Knicks aren't winning or is the reason the Nuggets never won. It never made sense to me from a basketball perspective. Talk about his faults all you want, but don't blame him for the Knicks' failures, that team is not that talented. You give me this LeBron instead of Melo on those teams and they would still fail.
If you're talking about their overall games, then yes, LeBron does a lot more things than Melo, but playoff success is another thing. Melo could have hooked up with Kobe and Dirk back in 2010 and he'd be winning rings as well. Then we'd be talking about how Melo is such a great player despite being the same exact player you're putting down right now.
I seem to recall this exact thing happening to Pau, funny how playing with superstars and winning rings changes people's perspective despite you being the same exact player.
There's not only a certain type of player that wins championships. You can win with a Melo that plays the way he currently does. I would go as far as to say that if you put a prime T-Mac on last year's Knicks team that they would have made the Finals. And unlike LeBron, who doesn't make Wade or Bosh that much better(they actually make him better instead), I think Melo and T-Mac would have fed off each other, maintained their stat highs and still achieved playoff success.
It's not working out for them because they don't have the roster outside of Melo. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:34 am Post subject:
I disagree that if Melo was with Kobe and Dirk, that he'd win.
Pau at least, was continually among the league leaders in rebounders and could swat. He was NEVER a selfish iso player. He's the consummate playmaker. He couldn't get it going in Memphis because really, there wasn't a 2nd star.
Once he had Bryant, the rest is history.
I disagree that you can win with Melo.
Bryant didn't win until he stepped up his defense and playmaking.
Until Melo does that, he goes nowhere.
Even Prime TMac created plays for others and forced turnovers on defense. I really don't think people understand how much of an offensive black hole Carmelo Anthony is. Career low FG%, 3pt%, and still has a 1:1 A/TO (barely) in the prime of his career.
He hasn't learned a thing. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
