Tanking for Duke's Parker
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Corey78
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Kobe Bryant is a poor example. The years he doesn't play D, the Lakers don't win championships.

Otherwise, who hasn't he covered? Westbrook. Kidd. Rondo. etc. He's covered them all.

What's the difference between LeBron and Carmelo Anthony?

LeBron is willing to defend any position, at a high level, and it makes Miami elite defensively.

Carmelo, you need to hide him. No wonder why he never made it past 2nd round.


Melo made it to the West Finals. You should know, he played us.

In terms of playoff success, the difference between LeBron and Melo is that LeBron smartened up and hooked up with 2 other superstars after his playoff failures, and now he's winning championships, while Melo is still trying to do it on his own. Obviously LeBron is a better player, but let's not pretend Melo's lack of real success in the playoffs has to do with him or that LeBron didn't experience similar failure before joining 2 other superstars.


I disagree. Melo has the skill level and not the hoop IQ. He has shown flashes of playmaking, yet refuses to do it altogether as a #1 option. He repeatedly opts for low percentage shots from midrange. Bryant does that too, but at least offers better post game AND playmaking ability. It prevents the offense from becoming so stagnant with Iso play.

Then there's the defensive end.

This is why LeBron worked well with Wade and Bosh. He was a playmaker. He didn't kill ball-movement. He's versatile on defense. It wasn't purely because of Iso play.

The problem with Iso players is, they all want to be finishers and not playmakers. Iso play is fine, as long as a high percentage shot can be created in limited time. James Worthy comes to mind. You can argue that Nick Young and Jordan Farmar do a bit of this for the Laker team, but at least they're willing passers. Anthony is not as willing.

The team formula built around Iso play isn't easy either. The 76ers had an elite defensive team, but couldn't hit high enough FG% outside of Iverson, who also broke offensive balance.

Anthony as a finisher didn't work either. Otherwise NYK could ride Linsanity to no end. It's no surprise that once the ball movement died in Anthony's hands, NYK started losing. No more open shots. Less defensive intensity. More losses.

NYK kept their star. Not really working out for them that well.


What are you disagreeing with again?

LeBron is a better player no doubt, but let's not pretend like Melo is the reason the Knicks aren't winning or is the reason the Nuggets never won. It never made sense to me from a basketball perspective. Talk about his faults all you want, but don't blame him for the Knicks' failures, that team is not that talented. You give me this LeBron instead of Melo on those teams and they would still fail.

If you're talking about their overall games, then yes, LeBron does a lot more things than Melo, but playoff success is another thing. Melo could have hooked up with Kobe and Dirk back in 2010 and he'd be winning rings as well. Then we'd be talking about how Melo is such a great player despite being the same exact player you're putting down right now.

I seem to recall this exact thing happening to Pau, funny how playing with superstars and winning rings changes people's perspective despite you being the same exact player.

There's not only a certain type of player that wins championships. You can win with a Melo that plays the way he currently does. I would go as far as to say that if you put a prime T-Mac on last year's Knicks team that they would have made the Finals. And unlike LeBron, who doesn't make Wade or Bosh that much better(they actually make him better instead), I think Melo and T-Mac would have fed off each other, maintained their stat highs and still achieved playoff success.

It's not working out for them because they don't have the roster outside of Melo.


I think its in large part Melo. Something with his style of play just doesn't work. Didn't work well in Denver. Didn't work that well when he had AI or good second option in J.R. Didn't work in NY even when Amare was kind of healthy and with the DPOY Chandler (even though Chandler is not healthy now.) And its not working now.

Is Melo's cast worse than Lebron's Cleveland cast where the second best player was either Illgauskas or Mo Williams? Yet, Lebron took those teams to 60+ win seasons, and I would argue that the east is even weaker now then it was then. The East is so weak that the dysfunctional Washington Generals are relevant at 9-9.

I liked Melo out of Syracuse. How could anyone not like him out of Syracuse...he led his team to an NCAA championship as a freshman one year removed from leading his High School team to a championship. Yet, in the NBA his weaknesses are apparent. He doesn't work particularly well with other players, doesn't play defense, and he kills ball movement.

Kobe took a team with Smush and Kwame to the playoffs in the much deeper Western conference. Yet, Melo cannot do the same. He's just not that kind of player.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject:

Offense is offense and defense is defense, and while it's great if they're in the same package, they don't have to be.

It makes things difficult if you have to make up for a player defensively, but it's not any different if it happens to be the player who's the star offensively, or the player who's a role player offensively. I guess the defensive positions matter, but the offensive role? No, I don't think so. It makes them a lesser overall package, sure, but it doesn't prevent them from being the star offensive player.

While there's so much season left to be played, I'm sure the dilemma in Parker vs. Wiggins will ultimately be proven skills vs. upside.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject:

I think Parker has a higher upside. His shot selection is better than Melo's. His moves are more efficient and create more space. Defensively, he's a team defender with quick hands, rebounds, and a few swats.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I think Parker has a higher upside. His shot selection is better than Melo's. His moves are more efficient and create more space. Defensively, he's a team defender with quick hands, rebounds, and a few swats.


I think people can argue that Melo was a lot more efficient at Syracuse than he has been in the NBA though. I expect Parker to be more efficient and a more willing playmaker than Anthony, but you can't always predict what direction a player will go once they hit the NBA.

How much do you think he can carry over his shot blocking considering he only has an 8'8 reach and is not particularly explosive vertically?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I think Parker has a higher upside. His shot selection is better than Melo's. His moves are more efficient and create more space. Defensively, he's a team defender with quick hands, rebounds, and a few swats.


I think people can argue that Melo was a lot more efficient at Syracuse than he has been in the NBA though. I expect Parker to be more efficient and a more willing playmaker than Anthony, but you can't always predict what direction a player will go once they hit the NBA.

How much do you think he can carry over his shot blocking considering he only has an 8'8 reach and is not particularly explosive vertically?


I think this is true in part. Parker can take more efficient shots now because he's dealing with less athletic smaller defenders. When Parker starts dealing with these long quick defenders in the NBA, will he still be able to take efficient shots or will he settle for low percentage pull-ups? How will his shot selection be when his lack of athleticism becomes a factor?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject:

They're different moves altogether.

1-2 dribble left or right, pull up.

Off screen pull up.

Drive all the way.

The only real poor "shot selection" is really the turnaround fadeaways, and he looks comfortable with that.

He hits at a higher clip with the same kind of shots as Anthony.

Shotblocking... he'll be a 1bpg guy, but at least he can do something with his length. Anthony is no threat, but has the same wingspan.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject:

parker's college TS% is like 10% better than carmelo's season at syracuse. limited sample size tho

source:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/carmelo-anthony-1.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jabari-parker-1.html
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject:

lkjhf wrote:
parker's college TS% is like 10% better than carmelo's season at syracuse. limited sample size tho

source:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/carmelo-anthony-1.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jabari-parker-1.html


That's a huge tell about how efficient his moves are into creating a comfortable, basic shot.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject:

Thread got derailed. Anyway, funny how Jabari's first "bad" game in college is still better than a lot of players', including Wiggins, good game

But hey, athleticism and highlight dunks are everything (see Blake Griffin) so this guy should be the 7th pick.....



in the 2nd round
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject:

MambaMentality wrote:
Thread got derailed. Anyway, funny how Jabari's first "bad" game in college is still better than a lot of players', including Wiggins, good game

But hey, athleticism and highlight dunks are everything (see Blake Griffin) so this guy should be the 7th pick.....



in the 2nd round


You understand he's been struggling against athletic defenders, right?

You can't really disrespect Griffin. 20ppg 10ppg 3apg. As if that's a bad thing?!?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
MambaMentality wrote:
Thread got derailed. Anyway, funny how Jabari's first "bad" game in college is still better than a lot of players', including Wiggins, good game

But hey, athleticism and highlight dunks are everything (see Blake Griffin) so this guy should be the 7th pick.....



in the 2nd round


You understand he's been struggling against athletic defenders, right?

You can't really disrespect Griffin. 20ppg 10ppg 3apg. As if that's a bad thing?!?


Right. He won't be able to address that in the next level but Wiggins' ton of potential will be able to save him

That double standard
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject:

MambaMentality wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
MambaMentality wrote:
Thread got derailed. Anyway, funny how Jabari's first "bad" game in college is still better than a lot of players', including Wiggins, good game

But hey, athleticism and highlight dunks are everything (see Blake Griffin) so this guy should be the 7th pick.....



in the 2nd round


You understand he's been struggling against athletic defenders, right?

You can't really disrespect Griffin. 20ppg 10ppg 3apg. As if that's a bad thing?!?


Right. He won't be able to address that in the next level but Wiggins' ton of potential will be able to save him

That double standard


You make jokes as if I'm not being objective, and it presents distinct homerism for Parker. I get that.

Tell me, who had more upside? Carmelo Anthony? Or LeBron James? Why is that?

It's not to say he can't do well at the NBA level, but the problem presents itself. Jared Sullinger had the same problem at the NCAA level. At least he had strength and wingspan and a load of post game to compensate.

So, why isn't he dominating?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject:

Parker is a better athlete, even relative to his position, than Sullinger was, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Besides, things open up more in the NBA for perimeter players than they do for post players.

It's obvious that Wiggins has more upside than Parker, but upside is just one part of the equation. You can't just focus on the "what could be" and ignore the "what is." Personally, I expect Parker to be pretty much on a similar level to Paul Pierce, and while you obviously can't put a Pierce-type on the same level as a Durant or LeBron (or perhaps even a Wade,) he can rival a prospect like Wiggins, whose draft stock is proving to be relying a lot more on upside than previously thought.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
Parker is a better athlete, even relative to his position, than Sullinger was, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Besides, things open up more in the NBA for perimeter players than they do for post players.

It's obvious that Wiggins has more upside than Parker, but upside is just one part of the equation. You can't just focus on the "what could be" and ignore the "what is." Personally, I expect Parker to be pretty much on a similar level to Paul Pierce, and while you obviously can't put a Pierce-type on the same level as a Durant or LeBron (or perhaps even a Wade,) he can rival a prospect like Wiggins, whose draft stock is proving to be relying a lot more on upside than previously thought.


I agree Parker is a better athlete, but that doesn't mean I overlook his struggles against more athletic defenders.

Sullinger has post base and wingspan to knock defenders off on the block. He hasn't stood out like he should have.

Agreed that upside is part of the equation. But, considering the modern NBA, with the focus on PnR play, long, rangy defenders with elite level quickness, and maximizing fast break points as much as possible, it's no wonder why Parker still hasn't claimed the #1 spot in the draft, despite being the best statistically across the board compared to the other prospects.

It's not like GMs haven't known about him for a long time. He's been winning HS championships since his soph year.

Me personally? I just can't vouch for his defense. Those are some of the worst plays I've ever seen. No effort. No motor. No fight. Just getting ran over or blown by guys who aren't even close to NBA talent.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
Parker is a better athlete, even relative to his position, than Sullinger was, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Besides, things open up more in the NBA for perimeter players than they do for post players.

It's obvious that Wiggins has more upside than Parker, but upside is just one part of the equation. You can't just focus on the "what could be" and ignore the "what is." Personally, I expect Parker to be pretty much on a similar level to Paul Pierce, and while you obviously can't put a Pierce-type on the same level as a Durant or LeBron (or perhaps even a Wade,) he can rival a prospect like Wiggins, whose draft stock is proving to be relying a lot more on upside than previously thought.


I agree Parker is a better athlete, but that doesn't mean I overlook his struggles against more athletic defenders.

Sullinger has post base and wingspan to knock defenders off on the block. He hasn't stood out like he should have.

Agreed that upside is part of the equation. But, considering the modern NBA, with the focus on PnR play, long, rangy defenders with elite level quickness, and maximizing fast break points as much as possible, it's no wonder why Parker still hasn't claimed the #1 spot in the draft, despite being the best statistically across the board compared to the other prospects.

It's not like GMs haven't known about him for a long time. He's been winning HS championships since his soph year.

Me personally? I just can't vouch for his defense. Those are some of the worst plays I've ever seen. No effort. No motor. No fight. Just getting ran over or blown by guys who aren't even close to NBA talent.


I don't think you can put much stock in rankings at this point, and it's not like we really know how GM's are ranking prospects right now.

There's no doubt that Wiggins fits the mold better. That's his greatest strength really, he's great clay. You shouldn't necessarily draft based on who looks the part the best, and just hope they develop the substance to back it up.

I can't vouch for his defense either, but he has the tools to at least be decent. For that to happen though, he'd need to get in better shape, and he has to commit himself more to that end. You never know though, with the way they're calling fouls this year, it could partly be him trying to avoid foul trouble. Not a great mentality to have, but it could be worse.

There are things I'm worried about with Parker, just like there are things I'm worried about with Wiggins. I'm still undecided between them, and as strong as this draft is, it's kind of disappointing that it doesn't have a slam dunk no.1 like I thought it would with Wiggins. I'm kind of leaning towards Embiid at no. 1 right now.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject:

The only real standout is Embiid. You see the consistent production, you know he's raw, but he plays on both ends of the floor, and there's more potential to reveal.

If we were going by results so far

Embiid
Exum
Parker
Smart
Wiggins
Gordon

etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
The only real standout is Embiid. You see the consistent production, you know he's raw, but he plays on both ends of the floor, and there's more potential to reveal.

If we were going by results so far

Embiid
Exum
Parker
Smart
Wiggins
Gordon

etc.


whoa! did I miss something here, mike? where is Julius randal on this list--if were just going by results--he should be near the top, or at least above Gordon. I know he is undersized for the nba 4, but wasn't kevin love measured at 6'7 or so? this kid has the athleticism to compensate.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject:

malicious_intent wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
The only real standout is Embiid. You see the consistent production, you know he's raw, but he plays on both ends of the floor, and there's more potential to reveal.

If we were going by results so far

Embiid
Exum
Parker
Smart
Wiggins
Gordon

etc.


whoa! did I miss something here, mike? where is Julius randal on this list--if were just going by results--he should be near the top, or at least above Gordon. I know he is undersized for the nba 4, but wasn't kevin love measured at 6'7 or so? this kid has the athleticism to compensate.


Completely forgot Randle's name. Would have him around Exum/Parker.

I can do with no right hand, turnover prone, needs some more discipline off-the-bounce. That's EASY stuff to fix.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Draft-Prospect-of-the-Week-Julius-Randle-4377
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject:

Let me get this straight; you're the one who's been harping on and on about Wiggins' massive potential, and I'M the homer?

Comparing Parker with Sullinger when they aren't even close to being the same player

So much hatred
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject:

I haven't said anything about Wiggins' potential. What are you talking about?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject:

MambaMentality wrote:
Let me get this straight; you're the one who's been harping on and on about Wiggins' massive potential, and I'M the homer?

Comparing Parker with Sullinger when they aren't even close to being the same player

So much hatred


You need to stop.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject:

MambaMentality wrote:
Let me get this straight; you're the one who's been harping on and on about Wiggins' massive potential, and I'M the homer?

Comparing Parker with Sullinger when they aren't even close to being the same player

So much hatred


Someone doesn't agree with you, therefore hatred? Get over yourself.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject:

I'm so high on Dante Exum. He's a future star in the league. However, I'm still picking everyone else before him. Let's face it. Elite PGS are not required to win titles.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject:

AIRZOOMKOBE2k5 wrote:
I'm so high on Dante Exum. He's a future star in the league. However, I'm still picking everyone else before him. Let's face it. Elite PGS are not required to win titles.


It would never hurt to have him play SG and retain that playmaking ability next to another PG.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject:

What have we seen from Exum so far this year?

If Parker took a summer out to work on his body and improve his strength and speed, he could really be something special
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