Joel Embiid

Mike@LG · Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:21 pm Post subject:

lol Embiid is ahead of DW in terms of actual post game at the same age.

Anthony was ahead, because he was a PG with a growth spurt.

But, bigmen who develop, don't slip in the draft, are too late to get to.

I don't care about PnR play. He runs the floor. He can play up pace.

If anything, I think less of wing players, because they're all elite, and all too common. You want the one thing that'll give you an advantage over the rest of the league.

He doesn't have to be Hakeem to be a successful pick. He's already ahead of Tyson Chandler by age. He's more advanced than most NBA centers drafted early, and that includes Alex Len, Cody Zeller, and Nerlens Noel, and those were the top 3 bigs drafted in the the top 7 of last year's draft. Not exactly weak.

If the draft class wasn't so rich with talent, he would be the undisputed #1, but I've seen enough.

You can't teach motor/motivation/consistency
(Wiggins)
You can't teach athleticism.
(Parker, good, not great, in a league full of elite wings)

And I even prefer that he's still a project player of sorts. He has plenty of time to learn under proper tutelage. We just need Tyson Chandler impact. His upside is FAR more than that.

Even through free agency, Westbrook, Durant, Rondo, Kevin Love, etc. Perfect guys to put around Embiid.

But no team is giving up Anthony Davis. No team is giving up DeAndre Jordan as raw as he is. No team is giving up Andre Drummond. Pacers aren't giving up Hibbert. Miami is just recycling bigs in case of emergency.
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Mike@LG · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:21 am Post subject:

wolfpaclaker · Retired Number Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58344

There's no doubt Embiid is going to be really good. With all due respect to Mike, I'm just not sure he's superstar material. You could have guys in this draft who would be the next Wade or Harden or better even.

To me if Embiid was as obviously good as Hakeem, Shaq or Ewing, or heck even Dwight Howard at the same age, he is #1 in this draft, easy. But he's not that good, yet. So I wonder, if it's the smartest thing to take a guy like that #1 when you have the next generation of superstars drafted below him. Guys like Embiid are unlikely to carry teams into the next decade. He will likely be that 2nd guy with the team needing to go out and find that #1 guy before they have any sort of success.

No my fear is not Bynum or Oden 2.0 (injuries) at all. It's more about drafting a top 5 C (He won't clearly be better than Dwight, Anthony Davis, Drummond, Hibbert any time soon, may be 3-5 years down the road) vs drafting potentially the next MVP caliber player in the league who could be that #1 guy within 1-2 years. I wouldn't want to miss out on that superstar perimeter player. If you guys are sure that's not the case with these guys that there is no superstar perimeter player in this draft, I'd go with Embiid at #1 as well.

Just look at all the top teams in the NBA right now

Miami - led by LBJ
Indiana - led by George
OKC - led by Durant
SAN - led by Parker

Hou, LAC , GST - all just outside of top 4 contending teams and are led by all-star perimeter players in Harden, Paul, Curry.

Lakers? Led by Kobe - another superstar perimeter player when healthy.

I'm the dude who usually argues with so many about the value of a low post big. But in the draft, I'd always pick the guy with superstar talent who could lead my team before I'd worry about my #2 or #3 or foundation defensive player.

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Corey78 · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:27 am Post subject:

wolfpaclaker · Retired Number Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58344

Starting basketball late shouldn't be a credit to Embiid. It should be a liability. He's behind players his age in experience. I recall many of the same reasons there was so much Bynum hype a few years back. He started competitive basketball late. He has great touch. He is a man among boys. All true.

But it also comes down to who else is in that draft. If there's a certain superstar in there, why pass up? Why pass on Durant, to get Oden? Don't think POR is kicking itself now? Even if Oden had stayed healthy, we saw in that 1st year Durant was the better player. I'd argue a healthy Oden was still going to be a lesser player than Durant.

This is where I'm heading at with my point. I don't think Embiid is going to be a bad pick - anywhere. He's going to be a great pick, IMO. However, you don't want to be that team that drafts the very good big guy, when there's a GREAT perimeter player or two after him. That's my main argument. Anyone who has Embiid #1 better be damn sure that none of these other perimeter players turn out to be as good as Wade in prime, Harden, George etc.

LakerSanity · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject:

^It's a credit if there is evidence that a player is a fast learner, the opposite if he's a slower learner. Bynum showed that he could pick up things and grow rather quickly, and so being a new player was to his credit. Same circumstances surrounded Tim Duncan (swimmer) and Hakeem (soccer).

There is evidence that Embiid is on that learning curve, which is being only a recent basketball convert is used to his credit... for now.
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Mike@LG · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject:

There's a difference to Embiid to Bynum.

Embiid is still playing on instinct. Even though Kansas lost today, he handled the length of SDSU relatively well and didn't cough up the ball as easily. He still finished plays that Tharpe struggled to execute cleanly. He still hit 2 FTs in the clutch.

I think people are of the opinion that Embiid, Bynum, and Oden were on the same plane in terms of learning basketball.

Not true. Oden played the longest and had the physical tools, so he was the most dominant all through the end of his HS years.

Bynum played more HS ball than Embiid, but was the roughest project of all three players. He didn't develop touch or explosion until his 3rd or 4th year in the league. He struggled with basic defensive concepts. I still contend that he burned out his body and desire by workout so hard in the off-season in the middle of Kobe's prime to contend for championships. No wonder he lacks some desire. No wonder his knees hurt.

Embiid has spent the least time on the bball floor, showing the defensive skills that Oden did as a freshman at Ohio St., yet demonstrating better footwork and more advanced post moves than both.

Even Phil Jackson questioned Bynum's motor. No one can question Embiid's.

This is why he's my #1 pick. Today's game against SDSU was proof of it. He made all of the small plays. He rotated perfectly on defense and Perry/Wiggins/Selden were all late on rotation and boxing out. Wiggins had multiple opportunities to burn his defender and only hit a few shots, mostly in transition. He played great defense, but didn't help out on the backboards when Embiid helped out.
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Mike@LG · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject:

Wolf, as to finding the next Wade or Harden, where?

Parker is the most advanced offensive player, doesn't have that ball-handling ability.

Wiggins doesn't have the handles that everyone thinks he has. He's a straight-line driver as of right now.

Exum is the only one who combines any kind of quickness/speed/ball-handling/size into one package and is in the lottery.
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wolfpaclaker · Retired Number Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58344

Mike - I've read Wade/Harden type of upside for the following players

Smart (I think very realistic for him to be an all-star)
Exum

As for the Wiggins - yes he's got weaknesses but the level of athleticism he has, you simply can not teach. You could teach him a better jumpshot smarter driving angles, better ways to manage the game. He's going to need a PG next to him, but can you imagine him with a PG that can set him up?

That said, my main argument is just that be sure that there isn't a Wade/Harden/Chris Paul type of guard in this draft, and then draft Embiid #1. Don't draft Embiid #1 just because he's a big guy and there's so few good one's in the NBA. Draft Embiid #1 if that's the guy who truly will be the the best player of this draft class, 3-4 years from now.

If you are confident in saying Embiid will be that best player of the draft 3-4 years from now, cool. If not? Then he doesn't deserve to go #1, IMO.

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E_Wulf420 · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:34 am Post subject:

After watching Kansas' game on sunday I would take Embiid over Wiggins.

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Mike@LG · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:35 am Post subject:

Fan0Bynum17 · Franchise Player Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 15436

I can see Parker being at least in Harden's tier (and is Harden really proven as a no.1 guy yet? I think we may be getting a little ahead of ourselves.) I don't know if he can be a no.1 guy at the PF spot being 6'8 with an 8'8 standing reach. He may have some size to him, but I don't know if he has PF strength. I'd prefer he go in the direction of dropping some weight, tone up, and try to get quicker.

Mike@LG · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:29 am Post subject:

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Mike@LG · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:02 am Post subject:

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LakerLogic · Franchise Player Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886

Wiggins doesn't have "it."

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Mike@LG · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:54 pm Post subject:

USCandLakers · Franchise Player Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 19955

I like Wiggins for the Lakers over any other player because sky's the limit with him, and it seems like with the right mentor he'll definitely reach his potential. We just so happen to have the right mentor, and a great organization on top of that. Paul George's massive improvement has a lot to do with Kobe's work ethic, and I remember reading about how Kobe helped improve Ariza's shot. His leadership and work ethic also helped Melo, LeBron and Wade coming off that 2008 Olympic team.

I think with any perimeter player we get, his improvement will be expedited by having Kobe as a teammate. They just need to have the desire and work ethic to improve, that's what we need to read before deciding who to draft. I like either Wiggins or Exum as a top pick over the front court guys. Let Kobe bring out that potential like he was the Old Kai.
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