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32
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 Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:03 am Post subject: Larry Coon Article on ESPN Insider: Lakers' four options with Kobe |
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Today Larry has a new article on ESPN Insider. I don't subscribe to ESPN Insider. For legal reasons we cannot post the whole article here on LG. If somebody subscribes to ESPN Insider and wants to volunteer to post a summary or portions of the article please do so.
| Quote: | | Can the Lakers build around Kobe's contract? It's tricky, and here's why |
Lakers' four options with Kobe
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Iron Mamba
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Larry Coon Article on ESPN Insider: Lakers' four options with Kobe |
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| 32 wrote: | Today Larry has a new article on ESPN Insider. I don't subscribe to ESPN Insider. For legal reasons we cannot post the whole article here on LG. If somebody subscribes to ESPN Insider and wants to volunteer to post a summary or portions of the article please do so.
| Quote: | | Can the Lakers build around Kobe's contract? It's tricky, and here's why |
Lakers' four options with Kobe |
I think Larry already has the main synopsis on his ESPN 710 interview which is stickied up above.
But yes it's tricky, tricky, tricky, trick-ey!
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shnxx
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
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What are his main points?
Man I would love to read this. |
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32
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Iron Mamba - That article was written on the day Kobe received the two year contract extension. Maybe there is some added thoughts on this new article.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I cherry-picked the main points and free agents:
| Quote: | Scenario 1: Sign a tier-one free agent in 2014
Potential free agents in this category are LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh, all of whom must invoke options in order to become free agents.....
Scenario 2: Sign multiple tier-two free agents in 2014
The next group of 2014 free agents includes Eric Bledsoe, Luol Deng, Gordon Hayward, and Greg Monroe......
Scenario 3: Sign one tier-two free agent in 2014
Scenario 4: Stand pat in 2014, aim for 2015 and 2016
... It then opens its checkbook in 2015 when players such as Kevin Love and Brook Lopez will hit the market.
Waiting for Kevin Love might be the Lakers' best option. But it doesn't get Kobe another ring.
This scenario would again leave Bryant out of title contention in 2014, and would simply push the team's rebuilding process back one year. However, with Bryant's extension set to expire in 2016, the team could conceivably sign a player such as Love in 2015, and if Bryant retires, use his freed-up salary in the 2016 free-agent market, which could be headlined by Kevin Durant. |
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Iron Mamba
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| shnxx wrote: | What are his main points?
Man I would love to read this. |
Me too. I think Lowest Merion has an insider sub. But Larry's main point in his radio interview was:
1) Lakers just made it tougher on themselves to build a championship roster around Kobe.
2) When asked if Kobe's contract was a good deal number wise, Larry replied "No".
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32
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Thank you CL.
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Iron Mamba
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | I cherry-picked the main points and free agents:
| Quote: | Scenario 1: Sign a tier-one free agent in 2014
Potential free agents in this category are LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh, all of whom must invoke options in order to become free agents.....
Scenario 2: Sign multiple tier-two free agents in 2014
The next group of 2014 free agents includes Eric Bledsoe, Luol Deng, Gordon Hayward, and Greg Monroe......
Scenario 3: Sign one tier-two free agent in 2014
Scenario 4: Stand pat in 2014, aim for 2015 and 2016
... It then opens its checkbook in 2015 when players such as Kevin Love and Brook Lopez will hit the market.
Waiting for Kevin Love might be the Lakers' best option. But it doesn't get Kobe another ring.
This scenario would again leave Bryant out of title contention in 2014, and would simply push the team's rebuilding process back one year. However, with Bryant's extension set to expire in 2016, the team could conceivably sign a player such as Love in 2015, and if Bryant retires, use his freed-up salary in the 2016 free-agent market, which could be headlined by Kevin Durant. |
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Thanks CL, none of those options look appealing, maybe Scenario 4 seems more plausible in the Big Picture of schemes.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | While it might sound ludicrous to suggest that a player negotiate a lower salary, doing so would have brought him closer to his stated goal of winning more rings. As seen here, a strategic look at the cap implications shows that the media and fans were right -- that even though Bryant fully deserves every penny that the Lakers pay him, his extension distances him from winning more titles before he retires. He might not have realized when he signed his contract that he was forgoing further title contention, but that effectively was the choice he made. |
Larry's conclusion, which is the way I have felt too.
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| The best we can hope for is a terrible record this season, followed by a fortuitous ping pong ball selection. Truth be told, the alternatives are uninspiring. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | The best we can hope for is a terrible record this season, followed by a fortuitous ping pong ball selection. Truth be told, the alternatives are uninspiring. |
I still think they say "F it" and go get Melo, and fill the team out with bunch of minimum players. Will that win a ring, probably not. But that extension to me signaled that our chances to win a ring with Kobe were slim to begin with anyways.
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Fruscas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| if Bledsoe is a possility, which i doubt. You sign him, no questions asked |
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AshesToAshes
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | While it might sound ludicrous to suggest that a player negotiate a lower salary, doing so would have brought him closer to his stated goal of winning more rings. As seen here, a strategic look at the cap implications shows that the media and fans were right -- that even though Bryant fully deserves every penny that the Lakers pay him, his extension distances him from winning more titles before he retires. He might not have realized when he signed his contract that he was forgoing further title contention, but that effectively was the choice he made. |
Larry's conclusion, which is the way I have felt too. |
Same can be said for any player in the league...
.. and then why stop with just kobe? how many guys have had paying jobs playing basketball in the nba with absolutely 0 results (rings) to show for it? They should then take an even larger sacrifice shouldn't they?
and then let's talk about college ball where kids give it their all and are forbidden to earn anything for it..
back on topic, the article also doesn't talk about trades and acts like the only option is togo out and sign free agents.
THINK OF IT THIS WAY.. if kobe was supposed to take cuts to make room for someone like melo... on the other side of the coin, compared to kobe, melo should sign to play here for free. But no, every free agent deserves the max possible except kobe (who took a paycut anyways).
Why do they all calculate melo and love at their current contract levels? don't they fit if they don't act "completely selfishly" and sign here for major discounts to win like kobe "should have"?
Do they fit if they took the EXACT SAME REDUCTION IN SALARY KOBE JUST TOOK?
changes the storyline doesn't it..
Are all these "expert analysts" really saying that to resign with your current team and showing loyalty etc means you should earn LESS than those that switch teams and force free agency every chance they get?
Sounds like cell phone companys... for loyal customers renewing contracts you get the usual deal... but IF you're SWITCHING from a competitor you get a half price contract. It makes no sense if you apply the concept outside of the little box they're trying to make you focus on.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 am Post subject: |
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When you make moves such as these which seemingly are more about loyalty and honor than actual on court business sense, then the best thing to do is simply stock up on the area where you don't really have a CBA or cap limit to hinder your progress.
The Lakers can upgrade their coaching big time by bringing in someone who would maximize Melo/Kobe. I know of one name, but it would take Jimmy doing a lot of begging/backing off in the FO to make it happen. That's not to say I think our current coach deserves the boot, but if we want Melo we need to show him a plan. Melo's already seen the plan with current coach and he disliked it.
In evaluating the different options, I think the most "realistic" path for the Lakers is to sign Melo, hope Bryant is back to a very high level next summer, continue to find these gems, and make a very, very good middle 1st round pick (Or trade that pick for a player that can help now). Then add the coach who could if given the bare minimum talent needed to compete with top teams, could get them to contend.
I believe 2 moves can salvage this. One is signing Melo, and two is signing a certain HC for a 2 year deal. Give them a 2 year window, and see where it goes. BTW, this isn't what my plan would have been, I'm still surprised we actually let DH walk without pushing harder for certain things that maybe could have got him to stay. I also would have tanked once I knew DH was gone and this season was a season where we're a middle of the pack team. And no based on the job he's done so far, I don't think MDA deserves the boot at all. But if you want Melo, and Melo is the only one that could possibly get LA back into the mix and salvage this thing. Then, you ought to make that next step and get the right coach for a Kobe/Melo team as well.
Again not my first plan, nor my second plan. My 3rd plan is to sign Melo and then hire PJ. Trade the #1 pick from next year for a big guy that can defend inside a bit or a more ready player that can be a #3 guy on the team (If we draft 15, we're still drafting a high quality pick IMO). 2 year run, Kobe retires as does PJ. PJ sees Kobe's career out as it should. Melo recruits the next star in 2016 or we go in full re-build mode (finally). |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | When you make moves such as these which seemingly are more about loyalty and honor than actual on court business sense, then the best thing to do is simply stock up on the area where you don't really have a CBA or cap limit to hinder your progress.
The Lakers can upgrade their coaching big time by bringing in someone who would maximize Melo/Kobe. I know of one name, but it would take Jimmy doing a lot of begging/backing off in the FO to make it happen.
In evaluating the different options, I think the most "reaslitic" path for the Lakers is to sign Melo, hope Bryant is back to a very high level next summer, continue to find these gems, and make a very, very good middle 1st round pick (Or trade that pick for a player that can help now). Then add the coach who could if given the bare minimum talent needed to compete with top teams, could get them to contend.
I believe 2 moves can salvage this. One is signing Melo, and two is signing a certain HC for a 2 year deal. Give them a 2 year window, and see where it goes. BTW, this isn't what my plan would have been, I'm still surprised we actually let DH walk without pushing harder for certain things that maybe could have got him to stay. I also would have tanked once I knew DH was gone and this season was a season where we're a middle of the pack team. And no based on the job he's done so far, I don't think MDA deserves the boot at all. But if you want Melo, and Melo is the only one that could possibly get LA back into the mix and salvage this thing. Then, you ought to make that next step and get the right coach for a Kobe/Melo team as well.
Again not my first plan, nor my second plan. My 3rd plan is to sign Melo and then hire PJ. Trade the #1 pick from next year for a big guy that can defend inside a bit or a more ready player that can be a #3 guy on the team (If we draft 15, we're still drafting a high quality pick IMO). 2 year run, Kobe retires as does PJ. PJ sees Kobe's career out as it should. Melo recruits the next star in 2016 or we go in full re-build mode (finally). |
Wolf, I'm with you on this.
In particular, Melo is an insurance plan if God forbid, Kobe gets hurt again or is a shadow of himself. He'll still keep people coming to the games.
Now, Melo said his free agency move vis-a-vis the Lakers was to see how Kobe recovered. Who is to say if Kobe doesn't look great this year that Melo would rather take his lumps in NY, and re-build in 2015 (and stealing all the 2015 free agents like Love and Rondo).
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NickF
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| some of the decisions Lakers have been making lately seem more worthy of Donald Sterling than the Buss family |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Of all those options, the only one I see that can actually work in the short term is Melo, So with that, I think you have to have a plan to present to Melo as to why he's going to be a Laker and have success. He won't trade mediocrity in NY to be mediocre in LA. He's seen the show and dance with MDA.
What Melo needs is something that makes him go "That guy will change my career. He's done it for many other stars who hadn't won a ring b4 they teamed up with him"
He can say that about Phil and Kobe. That's why it makes so much sense to team them all up.
Again, this wouldn't be my plan at all, I'm not holding a torch for Phil, I'm so over that and I support the current coach. I just think we're stuck and we'll stay stuck unless we do something really big next summer. And we need to show Melo that we've got a big plan for him and a great vision,
Heck if I had Riley, I'd use him. Only say Phil because of what he represents and what he could make Melo possibly do. I don't think a Kobe/Melo team would win a ring even with Phil coaching, but I'll bet Melo and Kobe would think they could. And we'd have fun seeing them try.
Forget the dreams of super teams or great draft picks. Lets just live in reality. How do we make this work. I think 1) Sign Melo. 2) Hire Phil. 3) Let Mitch do what he does best in terms of the assets he has left over after we sign Melo. Unfortunately I see #2 never happening, and if that doesn't, I don't see #1 happening or even working out at all. Mitch will be great regardless, but I do think signing Melo is the best way to salvage the contract Bryant got. Nothing else makes much sense to me.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| AshesToAshes wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | While it might sound ludicrous to suggest that a player negotiate a lower salary, doing so would have brought him closer to his stated goal of winning more rings. As seen here, a strategic look at the cap implications shows that the media and fans were right -- that even though Bryant fully deserves every penny that the Lakers pay him, his extension distances him from winning more titles before he retires. He might not have realized when he signed his contract that he was forgoing further title contention, but that effectively was the choice he made. |
Larry's conclusion, which is the way I have felt too. |
Same can be said for any player in the league...
.. and then why stop with just kobe? how many guys have had paying jobs playing basketball in the nba with absolutely 0 results (rings) to show for it? They should then take an even larger sacrifice shouldn't they?
and then let's talk about college ball where kids give it their all and are forbidden to earn anything for it..
back on topic, the article also doesn't talk about trades and acts like the only option is togo out and sign free agents.
THINK OF IT THIS WAY.. if kobe was supposed to take cuts to make room for someone like melo... on the other side of the coin, compared to kobe, melo should sign to play here for free. But no, every free agent deserves the max possible except kobe (who took a paycut anyways).
Why do they all calculate melo and love at their current contract levels? don't they fit if they don't act "completely selfishly" and sign here for major discounts to win like kobe "should have"?
Do they fit if they took the EXACT SAME REDUCTION IN SALARY KOBE JUST TOOK?
changes the storyline doesn't it..
Are all these "expert analysts" really saying that to resign with your current team and showing loyalty etc means you should earn LESS than those that switch teams and force free agency every chance they get?
Sounds like cell phone companys... for loyal customers renewing contracts you get the usual deal... but IF you're SWITCHING from a competitor you get a half price contract. It makes no sense if you apply the concept outside of the little box they're trying to make you focus on. |
Not the same situation. Kobe has won his rings, and he’s chasing Jordan’s shadow, something only he and Lebron are currently doing. To do so, he needs to win more rings; that is a goal that Kobe himself has repeatedly stated is the most important one.
Now Kobe did take a paycut from the max he could have earned ($32-33m). But no one was assuming that was the $ being offered by the Lakers anyways. I and others thought Kobe would be taking that 33% paycut from $22-25m, which ended being the rage he “settled.”
Other “stars” in today’s NBA aren’t chasing Jordan, nor are they really in the conversation for GOAT. There can be an optimal point where the two sides (financial compensation to the player + salary cap flexibility to build a championship caliber team) could meet. $24m/2 years was not that.
Melo isn’t chasing Jordan; Kobe is. Kobe will need help to get rings 6 and beyond. But I don’t really see how we can (as reviewed and confirmed in Larry’s article) at this point.
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NickF
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Of all those options, the only one I see that can actually work in the short term is Melo, So with that, I think you have to have a plan to present to Melo as to why he's going to be a Laker and have success. He won't trade mediocrity in NY to be mediocre in LA. He's seen the show and dance with MDA.
What Melo needs is something that makes him go "That guy will change my career. He's done it for many other stars who hadn't won a ring b4 they teamed up with him"
He can say that about Phil and Kobe. That's why it makes so much sense to team them all up.
Again, this wouldn't be my plan at all, I'm not holding a torch for Phil, I'm so over that and I support the current coach. I just think we're stuck and we'll stay stuck unless we do something really big next summer. And we need to show Melo that we've got a big plan for him and a great vision,
Heck if I had Riley, I'd use him. Only say Phil because of what he represents and what he could make Melo possibly do. I don't think a Kobe/Melo team would win a ring even with Phil coaching, but I'll bet Melo and Kobe would. And we'd have fun seeing them try.
Forget the dreams of super teams or great draft picks. Lets just live in reality. How do we make this work. I think 1) Sign Melo. 2) Hire Phil. 3) Let Mitch do what he does best. Unfortunately I see #2 never happening, and if that doesn't, I don't see #1 happening or even working out at all. |
They aren't going to do any of those things we have MDA and the run and gun no defense team because it's fun to watch and people will still buy tickets same with overpaying to make sure Kobe stays, people will watch and buy tickets, there are no championships in the plans for next few years, they have NO intention of actually competing it's about ticket sales, this is like the clippers of old. |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| I think if Kobe gets injured again, there's an excellent chance Carmelo will want to be traded yet again. You cannot rebuild with Carmelo's contract. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | I think if Kobe gets injured again, there's an excellent chance Carmelo will want to be traded yet again. You cannot rebuild with Carmelo's contract. |
Well, wouldn't Melo be signed to:
2014-15, (30 y.o)
2015-16, (31 y.o)
2016-17, (32 y.o)
2017-18 (33 y.o).
Kobe's $25m is off the books after 2015-16 in time for Durant. Just running this scenario forward:
2016-17 Durant/Melo
2017-18 Durant/Melo
2018-19 Durant/(Paul George, etc.)
At that rate, you have a 2 year swap of one max slot going forward.
Fans will continue coming to games if Kobe is hurt from 2014-16 if at least Melo is there.
The ultimate disaster in 2015 is if Kobe goes down, we have no other "star," the Clips run the town, we have no 2015 draft pick (but we are so poor that we are in the Lottery if we had a pick).
Melo is an expensive insurance plan.
Like Larry Coon said, no good options exist after Kobe's extension.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| NickF wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Of all those options, the only one I see that can actually work in the short term is Melo, So with that, I think you have to have a plan to present to Melo as to why he's going to be a Laker and have success. He won't trade mediocrity in NY to be mediocre in LA. He's seen the show and dance with MDA.
What Melo needs is something that makes him go "That guy will change my career. He's done it for many other stars who hadn't won a ring b4 they teamed up with him"
He can say that about Phil and Kobe. That's why it makes so much sense to team them all up.
Again, this wouldn't be my plan at all, I'm not holding a torch for Phil, I'm so over that and I support the current coach. I just think we're stuck and we'll stay stuck unless we do something really big next summer. And we need to show Melo that we've got a big plan for him and a great vision,
Heck if I had Riley, I'd use him. Only say Phil because of what he represents and what he could make Melo possibly do. I don't think a Kobe/Melo team would win a ring even with Phil coaching, but I'll bet Melo and Kobe would. And we'd have fun seeing them try.
Forget the dreams of super teams or great draft picks. Lets just live in reality. How do we make this work. I think 1) Sign Melo. 2) Hire Phil. 3) Let Mitch do what he does best. Unfortunately I see #2 never happening, and if that doesn't, I don't see #1 happening or even working out at all. |
They aren't going to do any of those things we have MDA and the run and gun no defense team because it's fun to watch and people will still buy tickets same with overpaying to make sure Kobe stays, people will watch and buy tickets, there are no championships in the plans for next few years, they have NO intention of actually competing it's about ticket sales, this is like the clippers of old. |
Respectfully I disagree until I see otherwise. I see them as stubborn, cocky, etc. Not trying to win? Not sure. I'll wait until another year before I agree with you. If their plan to pursue Melo is the lame one they had with DH, and they continue to shoot for FA's that they have no shot at, I will agree that they are just doing that for PR and really knowing that they already have the cash cow (Kobe) and "fun" system to draw fans to the games.
Again, too early for me to agree. Been just 15 months since we traded for DH and SN and that made the payroll over 100M. Sorry, I'm going to give them a bit more time. |
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FreakofNature
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | I cherry-picked the main points and free agents | Quote: | | However, with Bryant's extension set to expire in 2016, the team could conceivably sign a player such as Love in 2015, and if Bryant retires, use his freed-up salary in the 2016 free-agent market, which could be headlined by Kevin Durant. |
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Hey, he got that from me.... Really... 
Go for Love in 15', then Durant in 16' with Kobe taking less $ way less, in 16' for one final run at both another ring and at Kareems all time points total record...Durant would be Ok with Kobe handing over the magical laker keys to the kingdom at that time as he will just be entering his prime then, and Kobe's shadow would disappear in 17', where then it's Durant's time........ Well along with Love as his side kick...
But this along with getting Bron in 14' have been my mantra for sometime now....Yes even before Mr.Coon... |
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | I think if Kobe gets injured again, there's an excellent chance Carmelo will want to be traded yet again. You cannot rebuild with Carmelo's contract. |
Exactly, just going after a facade of contention during Kobe's last hoorah (i.e. signing Anthony to a max deal) will (bleep) the Lakers way beyond his retirement and delay their re-build even further into the future. The Lakers had a chance to get out in front of this thing, but because of their prideful reluctance to re-build, and their need to put Kobe above the team, their lack of contention could linger for a while. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| FreakofNature wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | I cherry-picked the main points and free agents | Quote: | | However, with Bryant's extension set to expire in 2016, the team could conceivably sign a player such as Love in 2015, and if Bryant retires, use his freed-up salary in the 2016 free-agent market, which could be headlined by Kevin Durant. |
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Hey, he got that from me.... Really...
Go for Love in 15', then Durant in 16' with Kobe taking less $ way less, in 16' for one final run at both another ring and at Kareems all time points total record...Durant would be Ok with Kobe handing over the magical laker keys to the kingdom at that time as he will just be entering his prime then, and Kobe's shadow would disappear in 17', where then it's Durant's time........ Well along with Love as his side kick...
But this along with getting Bron in 14' have been my mantra for sometime now....Yes even before Mr.Coon... |
And what do you want to do in 2014-15? (and we have no 1st rounder that year).
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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