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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: | | The NCAA is a garbage organization. However until there is money in the D-League kids will keep going to college over the D-League. |
They would have to attract all the top coaches. |
Here is a serious question that none of us can really answer: Do the college coaches really matter to the kids, or are they just creations of the ex-coaches who dominate the TV networks? Coach K might matter to some kids, and the same is true for a couple others.
But let's suppose that Sammy Jammer at Saint Michael's Prep in Urbanville is presented with the following choice:
1. Go to Kansas for a year with Bill Self, play basketball without pay under the college rules, and pretend to be a student athlete
2. Go play for the Austin Toros, make $50,000, and play basketball under the NBA rules
I'm thinking that Bill Self doesn't seem that important to Sammy. Playing for the Toros as a professional would probably be at least equal if not substantially better in terms of player development.
In reality, the D League doesn't pay $50k. I think the average pay is around $17k. In order to make this work, the NBA would need to find a way to pay the equivalent of the signing bonuses that are given to the top high school baseball prospects, or something along those lines. |
Here's the rub though, if an NBA team is going to pay a substantial amount to draw a young college recruit away from college, they may as well put him on their roster instead of the D-League. |
If the min salary in the NBA were $750,000 and the max salary in the D League was $75,000? With both scenarios retaining rights to the player?
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cathy78
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:19 am Post subject: |
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For me this is fairly easy:
- college should not cost that much or anything so students would not need that much scholarship money (and hope that they have some kind of talent at something)
- sports should not be organized in schools or colleges. It's nice to have sports as part of the curriculum, but everything else on the more serious/professional level doesn't belong into schools and education.
- the NBA should not be organized in divisions and conferences. It should be organized into leagues. Just as european soccer is. Each league about 20 teams, bottom 4 teams move down a league, top 4 move up a league. Top four teams might play some playoffs to generate something special and some extra revenue (for those teams, not for the league since that would punish them for being good).
- there should be no draft. Players will be developed in the lower leagues and will move up and get paid as soon as they are ready.
- there should be a min and max salary for players, and a salary cap for teams with some punishment that goes into player development or charity. But it is up to the team to distribute the money in between the min/max and cap. If you have stupid management players won't play for you or you go bankrupt. That really reminds me of that thing called real life. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Black Salt wrote: | | Either make it like the NFL or none. I support none. One year thing was stupid from the beginning. |
The one year thing from the NBA was only a first step toward a two year, and eventually a three year.
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In reality, the D League doesn't pay $50k. I think the average pay is around $17k. In order to make this work, the NBA would need to find a way to pay the equivalent of the signing bonuses that are given to the top high school baseball prospects, or something along those lines. |
Here's the rub though, if an NBA team is going to pay a substantial amount to draw a young college recruit away from college, they may as well put him on their roster instead of the D-League. |
That's what I meant by the highlighted language. It would defeat the purpose if we let NBA teams sign kids out of high school, or if we had a separate high school draft. It would need to be something, frankly, that resembles a college scholarship. For example, the NBA could fund $25k in signing bonuses per D league team. Under that system, the Erie Bay Hawks could offer Andrew Wiggins $25k (in addition to the regular D league salary) to play a year in the D league instead of going to Kansas. Or they could spread it around. Heck, this would be a moneymaker for some of those teams. On top of that, the kids would be able to sign with agents and do other stuff on the side to make a little money.
If properly implemented, this would put John Calipari out of business. Many kids would still go to college, because they choose to go to college or because they think that they aren't ready for pro ball. This works just fine in baseball. |
I think in response to all the criticism NCAA is receiving over ''slave labor'' that they are going to end up conceding that players can sign endorsement deals without affecting their armature status. There is no way the Coach K's and Caliparis of the world are going to allow their multimillion earnings to be gutted without a fight.
I'm actually attending SXSW this week and there's a session titled ''Paid To Play: The Future of College Athletics''. Different models will be discussed. Should be interesting. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| MambaMentality wrote: | | Look what additional seasoning did for Lillard, Trey Burke and Evan Turner (among others). Some kids need college, others don't. I hope they revoke the one-and-done rule, but this suggestion will so more damage than good. Not everyone is an Anthony Davis once they leave HS. |
Ding ding.
The NBDL does have talent. Those guys aren't nearly developing as well.
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | MambaMentality wrote: | | Look what additional seasoning did for Lillard, Trey Burke and Evan Turner (among others). Some kids need college, others don't. I hope they revoke the one-and-done rule, but this suggestion will so more damage than good. Not everyone is an Anthony Davis once they leave HS. |
Ding ding.
The NBDL does have talent. Those guys aren't nearly developing as well. |
What it did for Trey Burke? A guy that played two years? Are we going to be talking about what a great job OK State did developing Marcus Smart in a couple of years? And Evan Turner wasn't NBA ready at all coming out of OSU, despite playing 3 years. And am I to believe that Damian Lillard's success is attributable to the elite tutelage he received at Weber State?
The NBDL doesn't have talent compared to the NCAA. The vast majority of the guys in the D-League are fringe NBA talents in the first place. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Well Adam Silver is considering making it a two year out of high school rule.
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
Not entirely true. Teams don't want to teach fundamentals to kids when they are trying to put together a championship team. |
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danzag
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | Well Adam Silver is considering making it a two year out of high school rule. |
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oliverginob
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
Not entirely true. Teams don't want to teach fundamentals to kids when they are trying to put together a championship team. |
how about the d- league though? it would be equivalent to training at the company but without the risk |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| oliverginob wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
Not entirely true. Teams don't want to teach fundamentals to kids when they are trying to put together a championship team. |
how about the d- league though? it would be equivalent to training at the company but without the risk |
I guess. But the big time college programs have far better facilities and coaching. Plus there really isn't a company wide training program that's specific to each basketball team. It's not like the way the Rio Grand team, for instance, are developing those players to play in that specific manner on their pro team. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | MambaMentality wrote: | | Look what additional seasoning did for Lillard, Trey Burke and Evan Turner (among others). Some kids need college, others don't. I hope they revoke the one-and-done rule, but this suggestion will so more damage than good. Not everyone is an Anthony Davis once they leave HS. |
Ding ding.
The NBDL does have talent. Those guys aren't nearly developing as well. |
What it did for Trey Burke? A guy that played two years? Are we going to be talking about what a great job OK State did developing Marcus Smart in a couple of years? And Evan Turner wasn't NBA ready at all coming out of OSU, despite playing 3 years. And am I to believe that Damian Lillard's success is attributable to the elite tutelage he received at Weber State?
The NBDL doesn't have talent compared to the NCAA. The vast majority of the guys in the D-League are fringe NBA talents in the first place. |
There are only about 10-20 players in the entire NCAA that are better than NBDL players at any one time, 99% of the NCAA aren't even fringe nba talents. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | There are only about 10-20 players in the entire NCAA that are better than NBDL players at any one time, 99% of the NCAA aren't even fringe nba talents. |
Sure, but that's enough to populate a league with 400-450 jobs available. The vast majority of the league consists of those 10-20 guys in any given year. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
Not entirely true. Teams don't want to teach fundamentals to kids when they are trying to put together a championship team. |
Then why do they pick them with the highest picks in the draft? (who usually consist of teams that are quite a ways away from fielding a championship caliber team) |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | MambaMentality wrote: | | Look what additional seasoning did for Lillard, Trey Burke and Evan Turner (among others). Some kids need college, others don't. I hope they revoke the one-and-done rule, but this suggestion will so more damage than good. Not everyone is an Anthony Davis once they leave HS. |
Ding ding.
The NBDL does have talent. Those guys aren't nearly developing as well. |
What it did for Trey Burke? A guy that played two years? Are we going to be talking about what a great job OK State did developing Marcus Smart in a couple of years? And Evan Turner wasn't NBA ready at all coming out of OSU, despite playing 3 years. And am I to believe that Damian Lillard's success is attributable to the elite tutelage he received at Weber State?
The NBDL doesn't have talent compared to the NCAA. The vast majority of the guys in the D-League are fringe NBA talents in the first place. |
Those fringe NBA talents aren't exactly lucky enough to have the best NCAA programs teaching them.
I was listening to ESPN710 talk with PJ Carlissimo, and he said college programs offer MORE time for players to work on their individual game than in the NBA.
Teams just draft unready prospects with high potential because they can't afford to miss out on potential franchise players.
The only thing that does work out is, if the team environment is great, then a player develops within that system.
Gerald Green, I think, is a guy who completely lacked the maturity to be an NBA player in 2005. It was part of the reason why I didn't like him back then. He was often late to practice. Didn't always show up. It cost him years before he could get solid playing time.
I do think a top tier NCAA program would have helped his work ethic.
I can only imagine how many millions of dollars it cost Gerald Green because it took him so long to get his head straight.
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kaoss128
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The one thing that would be interesting to see is if a guy like Wiggins decided to go to the D League instead of college would Nike throw him a shoe deal while he was still in the D-League? |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
Not entirely true. Teams don't want to teach fundamentals to kids when they are trying to put together a championship team. |
Great teams do.
Great teams incorporate the culture as well.
I think it's most obvious when it comes to Team USA basketball. Great NCAA coaches. Unselfish play. Guys who are elite at the NBA level are watching each other when it comes to work ethic.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I favor a hybrid system, where a kid gets drafted and can choose to go to college if he wants (and they get at least a 2 year commitment- and he gets the right to finish his degree later, on the house), or he can go to the developmental league, where the team can stash him for a couple years as well. He gets a signing bonus based on draft placement (for 1st rounders), a salary in the D league (Maybe 75k for 1st rounders, 50 for 2nd), and if the team calls him up during the season, he get the pro-rata difference between the D league and NBA minimum. If he's with the club a certain number of games, he gets a full salary.
After 2 years, there is a salary scale for an additional 2 years if the teams pick up their option, after which the normal restricted FA applies. If not, players can play in the D league up to another 2 years if a team wants to "sponsor" them, and are restricted FA's while in the D league (can sign with anyone, but "sponsor team" has right to match). After that, they are on their own.
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ronnyjeremy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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But if there no NCAA, there is no NCAA Tournament
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ronnyjeremy wrote: | But if there no NCAA, there is no NCAA Tournament
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Maybe universities could find something new to do, like educate people.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | The NBA's the only industry I can think of where people actually argue that 4 years of college is better than 4 years of on the job training at the highest level of the profession. It's absurd. |
Not entirely true. Teams don't want to teach fundamentals to kids when they are trying to put together a championship team. |
Then why do they pick them with the highest picks in the draft? (who usually consist of teams that are quite a ways away from fielding a championship caliber team) |
Because that is how the system is now. If it were changed, that might change as well.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ronnyjeremy wrote: | But if there no NCAA, there is no NCAA Tournament
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There would still be college basketball and a NCAA tournament.
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | I made this same argument a few months back. The NCAA is an exploitative system, and AH's comment about people wanting to tell the kids (who are legally adults) what's best for them is completely true. |
I agree, and the NBA can make things change. But it would take money. Why not a minor league like baseball? Pay the kids $75,000 a season to play (with the NBA kicking in supplementary relief), and let the teams draft them out of high school like MLB does. If they go undrafted, they can go to college and then apply for the college draft. Cities I have visited with minor league MLB teams go crazy over them and they are a valuable part of the community. An NBA minor league could be no different.
Who would lose in a setup like that? Not colleges, they would still field basketball teams and the fans would still attend. I was in Wichita last week and while the Shockers have little in the way of NBA talent, they are the biggest thing in that community. Residents identify with the college, not the players. The big loser would be the NCAA, and as GT has posted above, they are exploiting the hell of out these kids. So if they see their gravy train ending, F them. |
I think Cuban's ideas will be put into practice one day once NBA executives share his ideas. The infrastructure (D-league) has been there.
It's just a matter of time the D-league will start its own high school draft on top recruits. But NCAA won't let the cash cows go unchallenged.
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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I personally feel the NCAA should be abolished, it is ridiculous the amount of money that is generated and how much their administrators make.
The football and basketball players who generate the huge money are one step removed from slaves in my opinion, they deserve a piece of the pie.
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