Mark Cuban "There's no reason for the NCAA to exist. None."
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:
Well Adam Silver is considering making it a two year out of high school rule.


That's what Stern wanted, too. The union said no.
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moonriver24
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
ronnyjeremy wrote:
But if there no NCAA, there is no NCAA Tournament


Maybe universities could find something new to do, like educate people.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject:

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There are only about 10-20 players in the entire NCAA that are better than NBDL players at any one time, 99% of the NCAA aren't even fringe nba talents.


Sure, but that's enough to populate a league with 400-450 jobs available. The vast majority of the league consists of those 10-20 guys in any given year.


My comment was primarily about your claim that the ncaa is more talented, there are a handful of players who are, but in most cases they're undeveloped. For example, one of Mike's favorites Terrence Jones, he played nearly every game in the d-league season last year when healthy, he is currently better than every single player that was in the ncaa last year. Do some of them have more potential? a few do, but those guys usually get minutes at an nba level anyway.

You'd need one of those super Calipari teams to have a chance at the 5th best guy in an ncaa team being better than the 5th guy in the d league, the d league probably falls as the 3rd best league in the world, the ncaa is more like 10th.

People talk about lack of development in the nba, and its true to an extent, but its a byproduct of the schedule. You play games so tightly packed, you can easily go a month without a proper practice, so very few would argue that doesn't have little value for a 21 yo destined to be a roleplayer. The D league plays a similar schedule to the NCAA so gets all the practices inbetween, even apart from gameplay, which is why teams are increasingly liking the d league. And what Cuban is talking about is actually making it a full blown development league, send the kids there under the auspices of the teams rather than wasting time in the college system.

It wouldn't actually be that hard to set up a system that could provide both a level of financial security and a better education for flare outs since the cost of the latter is such a drop in the ocean for an nba roster (1 year rookie minimum undrafted = 4 years at harvard...).
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject:

Telleris wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Telleris wrote:
There are only about 10-20 players in the entire NCAA that are better than NBDL players at any one time, 99% of the NCAA aren't even fringe nba talents.


Sure, but that's enough to populate a league with 400-450 jobs available. The vast majority of the league consists of those 10-20 guys in any given year.


My comment was primarily about your claim that the ncaa is more talented, there are a handful of players who are, but in most cases they're undeveloped. For example, one of Mike's favorites Terrence Jones, he played nearly every game in the d-league season last year when healthy, he is currently better than every single player that was in the ncaa last year. Do some of them have more potential? a few do, but those guys usually get minutes at an nba level anyway.

You'd need one of those super Calipari teams to have a chance at the 5th best guy in an ncaa team being better than the 5th guy in the d league, the d league probably falls as the 3rd best league in the world, the ncaa is more like 10th.

People talk about lack of development in the nba, and its true to an extent, but its a byproduct of the schedule. You play games so tightly packed, you can easily go a month without a proper practice, so very few would argue that doesn't have little value for a 21 yo destined to be a roleplayer. The D league plays a similar schedule to the NCAA so gets all the practices inbetween, even apart from gameplay, which is why teams are increasingly liking the d league. And what Cuban is talking about is actually making it a full blown development league, send the kids there under the auspices of the teams rather than wasting time in the college system.

It wouldn't actually be that hard to set up a system that could provide both a level of financial security and a better education for flare outs since the cost of the latter is such a drop in the ocean for an nba roster (1 year rookie minimum undrafted = 4 years at harvard...).


Of course I don't think that the entire NCAA has more talent than the NBDL. I'm saying that they have more future NBA talent. We're talking about a very small group of people here, not the 5th man at Canisius.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:29 pm    Post subject:

These guys have no business going to college when one year as a pro they will make more than most people would in a lifetime. You got all your life to go to college...and a very short shelf life to play nba level basketball.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject:

I agree with some of the stuff, but not the NCAA shouldn't exist. His scope is the top 0.1% of NCAA athletes. What about the rest.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject:

^^^^

Do you even need the NCAA for the 99%? You need someone to organize the post-season tournaments, but football proves that you don't need the NCAA for that. I guess you need someone to enforce recruiting rules for the benefit of the schools (otherwise they would end up in bidding wars for players). Otherwise, what else does the NCAA do that is indispensable?
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:33 am    Post subject:

There ARE bidding wars for players.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Do you even need the NCAA for the 99%? You need someone to organize the post-season tournaments, but football proves that you don't need the NCAA for that. I guess you need someone to enforce recruiting rules for the benefit of the schools (otherwise they would end up in bidding wars for players). Otherwise, what else does the NCAA do that is indispensable?


Again, I think you are just looking at the creme of the crop in one of the few male sports that has a major professional league.

How many D3, D2, and D1 schools are there in the USA? How many student athletes? What about womens softball, womens volleyball, water polo, etc. And many of these schools don't have a TV contract for their football team or draw any significant amount of money from $5 ticket sales. Not all NCAA athletes are being exploited. I would say an extremely high percentage are in an advantageous position. (except for the BS no job rule)

Sure you can substitute the NCAA with other intercollegiate athletic associations that will universalize the rules for its members. Every region can have their own athletic association and set their own rules as well, although it seems more convenient to have most schools playing by the same rules so there isn't confusion.

I think there needs to be some kind of body that schools are members of to keep the games organized. Its doesn't have to be the NCAA, you're right, I guess anybody could do it. But I wouldn't get rid of student athletics because a tiny percent of D1 athletes are being exploited. Let them go to the pros, and let the other student athletes do their thing.

It would be best to just change a few rules to help out those being exploited. Like not being able to have a job, or make money, for example. But I know the NCAA has to work within the bounds of title IX as well as other rules, so probably easier said than done to make those changes.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject:

^^^^

Right, you got my point. Sure, we need some sort of organizing body for the competitions. But look at the NCAA, and tell me that we really need that. Do we really need some D3 high jumper getting declared ineligible because his coach gave him a stick of gum? We've had some cases that were just about that stupid.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Mark Cuban "There's no reason for the NCAA to exist. None."

TrueLies wrote:
http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/10538276/mark-cuban-says-nba-d-league-better-option-ncaa

Quote:
"I think what will end up happening -- and this is my opinion, not that of the league -- is if the colleges don't change from the one-and-done, we'll go after the one," Cuban said. "The NCAA rules are so hypocritical, there's absolutely no reason for a kid to go [to college], because he's not going to class [and] he's actually not even able to take advantage of all the fun because the first semester he starts playing basketball. So if the goal is just to graduate to the NBA or be an NBA player, go to the D-League."


what do you guys think? i suggest you read the whole article before jumping to conclusions



I think the College game makes too much money for them to allow this to happen.

But, I've always thought that the D-League should just be treated like the farm system in baseball. Every team has a squad and all of the players are eligible to be called up and sent back down.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:31 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:


Of course I don't think that the entire NCAA has more talent than the NBDL. I'm saying that they have more future NBA talent. We're talking about a very small group of people here, not the 5th man at Canisius.


And some of the ones who aren't in that group are the ones who play in the D League.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject:

kaoss128 wrote:
The NCAA is a garbage organization. However until there is money in the D-League kids will keep going to college over the D-League.
if you knew wiggins, parker, embiid, exum, etc were all in the dleague right now. tell me you wouldnt show up to a game and drop $30.00 to get a ticket? i know i would. the moment people realize the ballers are in the dleague no longer in college. people will go watch those dleague games. they will no longer just be scrub games.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject:

I agree with Cuban but I think it'll be hard to do away with the ncaa.
Do you guys realize how powerful the alumni network is and how much pride people have in schools they went to?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject:

"There's no reason for the NCAA to exist. None."

Yeah, because every single NCAA player from every school is going to go into the NBA. And let's not forget about the dozens of other sports.

Newsflash for Cuban, there's a whole world outside of the NBA - and there are actually people who live in it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject:

Misleading title blown out of context.

Cuban is speaking with regard to NBA prospects NOT all ncaa sports as a whole.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject:

I think that one big reason for stopping players coming to the NBA straight out of high school is that the NBA wants to limit the amount of max comtracts available to a y one player. They absolutely abhor the idea of any player making 25 to 30 million per year. With the current CBA the players are basically tied to one team for 6 years before he can go to free agency.(First round picks). Theoretically a player can play out his restricted free agent season and be a free agent after 4 years ut it rarely happens, they all sign an extension. Thos brings a player that has gone through college to free agency and a max deal in his late twenties. A chance for one max deal for most players than either he is out of the league or playing for a reduced contract. This is very owner friendly. They hate the thought of 2 or even 3 chances at free agency for a player that came out very young like Kobe, for example.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Right, you got my point. Sure, we need some sort of organizing body for the competitions. But look at the NCAA, and tell me that we really need that. Do we really need some D3 high jumper getting declared ineligible because his coach gave him a stick of gum? We've had some cases that were just about that stupid.
lol. but true.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:16 am    Post subject:

SmithWick wrote:
Misleading title blown out of context.

Cuban is speaking with regard to NBA prospects NOT all ncaa sports as a whole.


he was on mike and mike, where he explained that the issue is all the stupid rules the ncaa has
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Non NBA basketball leagues have always caved in rather quickly. They don't get support. The owners aren't going to expand the NBDL or a minor league system... simply because there is no market for it. Maybe it could work if they put it in another continent... like Europe or in Asia... etc... Ship them there... but I just don't see it happening in the US. NBA has a season smack dab in the middle of "sports orgy" time in the US.

College Football and the NFL are in high gear when the season starts... It goes against Hockey... March Madness... Spring Training...

The fact is a secondary league won't work well during a season where the majority of it is a boom time for athletics.

Baseball has the advantage of kids being out of school, and a summer season which really goes against a lot less... every 4 years it goes against the World Cup... and every 4 years it goes against the Olympics... It's post season gets creamed by college and profootball... But really... the only major stuff going on against it are Golf and the MLS (which actually is growing in ratings). That's why minor leagues can exist for baseball... Kiddos need to be entertained... families have down time... and football isn't going on.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

A couple things here about the seasonal advantages of minor league baseball:

1. The minor leagues as they exist today are only a faint shadow of the minor leagues that once were. In fact, a few of the minor leagues in the olden days were all but indistinguishable from the major leagues (the PCL is an example of this). Anyway, it would not surprise me if the current number of minor league teams (about 120 full season teams, plus some independent teams) are one-tenth of what the minors used to be.

2. It is far from clear that the current minor leagues would survive without the support of major league baseball. There are a few teams that do very well in mid-sized markets like Sacramento and Austin. However, a big part of the appeal of minor league baseball is that it is cheap.

While minor league baseball may have a seasonal advantage (though football is pretty well underway by August these days, and the NBA is still going well into June), I'm not sold that this is an important factor. The key is that MLB directly and indirectly subsidizes the minor league teams and keeps them afloat. This is what we would need for a viable minor league in basketball.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:44 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
Well Adam Silver is considering making it a two year out of high school rule.




Why does everyone have a problem with the rule? It's good for the NBA because it improves the overall quality. Teams have an extra year to evaluate players. It also improves marketing -- which improves team fandom. It's easier to support players that fans already recognize. And right now, teams have to take chances on players with raw talent but no skill. That hurts the overall quality. Let them showcase their talents in college where it gets more appreciated.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

Yes, it's good for the NBA. But there is something un-American about telling someone that they have to do something they don't really want to do (go to college) for free for two years, when someone would willingly pay them hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject:

The one and done rule is dumb....but I know why the NBA instituted it....teams didn't want to draft guys out of high school only to find out they were huge busts....at least when they play college ball for a year, it helps the GM's make a decision on who to draft. That being said I think it should be more like MLB where you have a farm system, so the guys who are ready to come up to the NBA are able to with the right development. Right now the D-League isn't anything like the MLB system, its more of a league for flameouts or guys who weren't good enough for the NBA.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject:

Well, I guess if the NBA didn't require a year of college, the next step would be this.
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