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ribeye
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:29 am Post subject: Looking back at Dwight Howard, is he still worth a max salary? |
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Not to have a sour grapes thread, as I definitely wanted Howard and believed he was worthy of a max salary before, on large part due to his 08-11 seasons. Today I don't think so. There is no doubt he would still get a max salary as he is close enough for many teams, but as I watch him and as I see his team play, with him and without, (while remembering last year as well) I don't think he's quite there.
Maybe it is because he has played on three different teams during his last three years and it will take him time to mesh with Houston. Or maybe, he is just not what he once was, and will never get there.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm still not sure. My vision is clouded due to this horrible season. Would he have helped this year (after recovering from injury)? No doubt. But at $22m and growing, pretty tough to say in 3 years whether he's worth it.
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22
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe for H-town, but not for here. Whatever the factors may be, it was clear he is not Laker material |
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Romano338
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
Noah is the best.
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LakersChamps04
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
Noah is the best. |
dwight isn't the clear but best anymore
Noah is there
Hibbert is there
Marc Gasol
Dwight
they're all good in their own ways. and stats dont tell the whole story either |
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cathy78
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Joined: 21 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| LakersChamps04 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
Noah is the best. |
dwight isn't the clear but best anymore
Noah is there
Hibbert is there
Marc Gasol
Dwight
they're all good in their own ways. and stats dont tell the whole story either |
As long as Houston is winning, everything will be ok. If the don't win he starts pointing fingers and requiring touches again. I really think SVG did a better job in Orlando than most think.
He might be the most athletic center, but he seems to be the least skilled. Might be a question of time until his smile will vanish... |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:45 am Post subject: |
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From a cost effective standpoint, I take Noah all day too over Howard. He makes almost $10m less.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
Considering the best just turned 21, it isn't worth that much, Howard will only go down from here. I didn't think he was worth the max last year and nothing has changed my mind.
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K28
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
In an era of de-emphasized post play and frankly the worst crop of Centers in NBA history, it's not really worth a lot. |
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Black Salt
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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NBA Centers=Legit Heavyweight title fights.
What were once the epitome of greatness, simply has deteriorated into near non-existence. |
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Romano338
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kray28_ wrote: | | Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
In an era of de-emphasized post play and frankly the worst crop of Centers in NBA history, it's not really worth a lot. |
How much somebody or something worth has nothing to do with how good the era is.
It's about "is the guy the best today"? If so, teams will put what's needed to have him. Him being less good than Shaq doesn't mean he will earn less. If he is the best today, he will earn what it costs for a team to have the best.
| Chronicle wrote: | | Noah is the best. |
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| Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
And there is nothing clear. You can argue Howard is better than Noah like you can argue the opposite.
| LakersChamps04 wrote: | dwight isn't the clear but best anymore
Noah is there
Hibbert is there
Marc Gasol
Dwight
they're all good in their own ways. and stats dont tell the whole story either |
Hibbert? Come one. 11 points 7 rebounds. Yes it's not all about stats but Hibbert isn't that great. He is very inconsistent. Howard already doubled these stats. He has assets, but the best center? No.
The others are good. As good as Howard? Not sure. Gasol can't grab 7 rebounds, for a 7+-foot center, that's pretty lame. Noah, yes, although he doesn't score too much.
I don't say Howard is the clear best and an amazing center. I just say that compared to others, we have to admit he probably is the best. Or a top 3. And top 3s costs a lot for teams. No matter how you rank them in history. Especially at center.
And I don't say I'm happy with that either. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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If Minnesota and Chicago swapped conferences, the narratives for Noah and Love would be swapped verbatim.
That's what happens when being in one conference makes you a top 4 team, and being in the other makes you a lottery team, especially considering the sources are east coast writers. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| The short answer is yes. He didn't cease to be a max contract guy just because he didn't mesh with Kobe and didn't want to stay in LA. |
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ribeye
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Win Shares
17.4 Kevin Durant-OKC
13.8 LeBron James-MIA
13.3 Kevin Love-MIN
11.2 Blake Griffin-LAC
11.2 Kyle Lowry-TOR
11.1 Stephen Curry-GSW
10.7 James Harden-HOU
10.4 Chris Paul-LAC
10.4 Paul George-IND
10.3 Anthony Davis-NOP
10.2 DeAndre Jordan-LAC
09.8 Carmelo Anthony-NYK
09.6 Joakim Noah-CHI
09.6 Goran Dragic-PHO
09.2 Dirk Nowitzki-DAL
08.7 Andre Drummond-DET
08.6 Damian Lillard-POR
08.2 Robin Lopez-POR
08.1 Dwight Howard-HOU
08.1 Serge Ibaka-OKC
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
0.308 Kevin Durant-OKC
0.266 Chris Paul-LAC
0.261 LeBron James-MIA
0.261 Kevin Love-MIN
0.220 Anthony Davis-NOP
0.215 James Harden-HOU
0.214 Stephen Curry-GSW
0.207 Kyle Lowry-TOR
0.204 Blake Griffin-LAC
0.196 Goran Dragic-PHO
0.193 Joakim Noah-CHI
0.191 Paul George-IND
0.191 Dirk Nowitzki-DAL
0.189 DeAndre Jordan-LAC
0.184 Andre Drummond-DET
0.180 Kawhi Leonard-SAS
0.179 Manu Ginobili-SAS
0.178 Andrew Bogut-GSW
0.175 Carmelo Anthony-NYK
0.172 DeMarcus Cousins-SAC
0.171 Pekovic Nikola-MIN
0.170 Lopez Robin-POR
0.169 Howard Dwight-HOU
Simple Rating (82games)
16.2 Durant
16.0 Love
13.7 James
13.1 Anthony
12.9 Paul
12.8 Curry
10.8 Harden
09.6 Dragic
09.5 Davis
09.3 George
09.2 West
09.1 Cousins
08.6 Nowitzki
08.6 Lee
08.4 Griffin
07.9 Aldridge
07.8 Iguodala
07.2 Wall
07.0 Thomas
06.5 Gay
06.5 Pekovic
06.5 Wade
06.3 Williams
06.2 Noah
06.1 Howard
Net Production (82games)
20.8 Durant
18.2 James
15.2 Paul
14.6 Love
13.7 Davis
12.7 Anthony
11.9 Harden
10.3 Curry
10.2 George
10.0 Dragic
09.8 Cousins
09.2 Wade
08.6 Aldridge
08.3 West
07.9 Howard
07.9 Griffin
07.5 Gay
07.3 DeRozan
07.2 Nowitzki
07.1 Ibaka
06.9 Duncan
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Kevin Love sure is lousy when it matters for a player with 13.3 win shares
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: |
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He has taken a team that barely squeaked into the playoffs into a top 3-4 west team within striking distance of 1st and even a possible contender. Defensively they have gone from horrible to pretty good. Don't know what else he was supposed to do, but IMO there's only 3-4 guys in the league with bigger impact than Dwight on a basketball court.
That said he is not a number 1 guy on a ring team and neither is Harden IMO so that leaves Houston in a situation where they are really good close to the top but never actually at the top. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Ribeye, I think those lists do a good job of illustrating why few people take any of those stats too seriously. The reality is that any team in the league would offer him a max contract if it had the cap space. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| LakersChamps04 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | Romano338 wrote: | | All I know is that he is the best center in the league. Or at the very least a top 3. That worth a lot. |
Noah is the best. |
dwight isn't the clear but best anymore
Noah is there
Hibbert is there
Marc Gasol
Dwight
they're all good in their own ways. and stats dont tell the whole story either |
Dwight is clearly the best C in an era of weak centers. Noah doesn't have his offensive impact. Hibbert doesn't either. Gasol is closer than those two in 2-way impact but still trails Howard. Howard is the only one that is a game changer on both sides of the ball. Yes, he is clearly still worth a max salary since he is the only C in basketball that can make that claim, unless you consider Duncan and Anthony Davis centers.
I think any team would happily pay a C max money if he gave them 19, 12, 2 on 59% and helped them move from an 8 seed to possibly 3 or 4. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | From a cost effective standpoint, I take Noah all day too over Howard. He makes almost $10m less. |
He also isn't capable of scoring 20 a night, creating shots for others because he gets doubled or making things easier for his teammates offensively because he is a threat to score and finish anything around the rim. Harden has more space this season. He is shooting the 2nd highest % of his career (46%). Look at the shotchart for Terrence Jones. A lot of his scoring opportunities are a result of the attention Howard gets, leaving him free to simply finish around the basket (he is long and athletic enough to do that).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/joneste01/shooting/2014/ |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: |
Dwight is clearly the best C in an era of weak centers. Noah doesn't have his offensive impact. Hibbert doesn't either. Gasol is closer than those two in 2-way impact but still trails Howard. Howard is the only one that is a game changer on both sides of the ball. Yes, he is clearly still worth a max salary since he is the only C in basketball that can make that claim, unless you consider Duncan and Anthony Davis centers.
I think any team would happily pay a C max money if he gave them 19, 12, 2 on 59% and helped them move from an 8 seed to possibly 3 or 4. |
Anthony Davis is already better and only 21. Look at Ribeye's stats, Davis is rated above Howard in all of them. Dwight was the best, now he is declining while the young Davis is just starting to gain momentum. If the Rockets wouldn't trade Howard for Davis I would have to question their future. Davis is doing things that Howard used to do.
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: |
Dwight is clearly the best C in an era of weak centers. Noah doesn't have his offensive impact. Hibbert doesn't either. Gasol is closer than those two in 2-way impact but still trails Howard. Howard is the only one that is a game changer on both sides of the ball. Yes, he is clearly still worth a max salary since he is the only C in basketball that can make that claim, unless you consider Duncan and Anthony Davis centers.
I think any team would happily pay a C max money if he gave them 19, 12, 2 on 59% and helped them move from an 8 seed to possibly 3 or 4. |
Anthony Davis is already better and only 21. Look at Ribeye's stats, Davis is rated above Howard in all of them. Dwight was the best, now he is declining while the young Davis is just starting to gain momentum. If the Rockets wouldn't trade Howard for Davis I would have to question their future. Davis is doing things that Howard used to do. |
Ribeyes stats also have players like Jordan, Drummond, Lopez and Cousins higher. I've watched quite a few Pelican games. Davis doesn't create as many scoring opportunities for others as Howard. His defense is also worse, especially his man defense. He's coming...but he's not there yet. |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Guys that are the best players at their position deserve max contracts. You can argue players are better than him, but you can certainly argue howard is the best.
If Houston didn't pay him, someone else would. 3 years from now will he be worth the contract? I don't know, but houston made a good decision at the time. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | He has taken a team that barely squeaked into the playoffs into a top 3-4 west team within striking distance of 1st and even a possible contender. |
I wouldn't quite phrase it that way. He, along with Chandler Parsons, who is growing into his position, and Terrence Jones, who is growing into his position and Patrick Beverly, who is growing into his position, along with so many role players, not to mention the number one player on the team, James Harden, has taken a team . . .
Indeed, he has helped this team get to this level. The question will remain, will he get them to the next.
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | He has taken a team that barely squeaked into the playoffs into a top 3-4 west team within striking distance of 1st and even a possible contender. |
I wouldn't quite phrase it that way. He, along with Chandler Parsons, who is growing into his position, and Terrence Jones, who is growing into his position and Patrick Beverly, who is growing into his position, along with so many role players, not to mention the number one player on the team, James Harden, has taken a team . . .
Indeed, he has helped this team get to this level. The question will remain, will he get them to the next. |
All of those players were on the team last year. The only one that has had tremendous growth has been Jones, and his growth isn't enough to elevate us from a 8 seed to a 3/4 seed. Howard, by the way, has helped tremendously with Jones growth. Here are some of his comments about him and Howard, and he actually has a Davis comparison in there as well:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24443824/video-terrence-jones-on-rising-as-a-star-with-dwight-howard
The Rockets have one of the best records in franchise history after the Howard addition. Yes, he is clearly worth a max salary. Any team with cap space and a need at C would give it to him. |
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