Report: LeBron James, annoyed with Micky Arison, not ready to commit to Heat
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golakersgo121
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
^^^
I am referring to hypothetical one year deals of lower values the trio would have to take, and then re-upping in a year. Even if Melo took a hit during year one as well - they would want nothing to do with it...


As long as the Heat are following the rules and doing the same thing any other team is going, I don't see anything hypocritical about it.

Also, I believe the rules are if the Heat guys opted out and signed new contracts, they couldn't have an option before the third year. So they would need to take a salary hit for two years.

In addition, they wouldn't have Melo's bird rights, so they couldn't resign him to a higher amount.

My bottom line is if the Heat guys and Melo mutually agreed to take lower salaries so they could play together there is nothing wrong about that.


OK - the numbers might not be accurate but here is the scenario for you.

The salary cap is $63mln, give or take. Miami has $2mln committed to one player and some cap holds at the min ($500K, I might be off on this figure). The trio opts out and signs one year deals with Miami at $13mln each. That's $41mln for 4 players. Cap holds accounts for about another $4mln leaving them $18mln for Melo - they sign him to 4 years deal with max raises for outside free agent. At the end of next season the trio (UFA again) signs a 5 years deal at the max ea (using their Bird rights with Miami). I don't think there is anything illegal per CBA about it - but I don't think (or hope?) it will fly.

everybody is taking lower salaries - but you see where I am going with it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
^^^
I am referring to hypothetical one year deals of lower values the trio would have to take, and then re-upping in a year. Even if Melo took a hit during year one as well - they would want nothing to do with it...


As long as the Heat are following the rules and doing the same thing any other team is going, I don't see anything hypocritical about it.

Also, I believe the rules are if the Heat guys opted out and signed new contracts, they couldn't have an option before the third year. So they would need to take a salary hit for two years.

In addition, they wouldn't have Melo's bird rights, so they couldn't resign him to a higher amount.

My bottom line is if the Heat guys and Melo mutually agreed to take lower salaries so they could play together there is nothing wrong about that.


OK - the numbers might not be accurate but here is the scenario for you.

The salary cap is $63mln, give or take. Miami has $2mln committed to one player and some cap holds at the min ($500K, I might be off on this figure). The trio opts out and signs one year deals with Miami at $13mln each. That's $41mln for 4 players. Cap holds accounts for about another $4mln leaving them $18mln for Melo - they sign him to 4 years deal with max raises for outside free agent. At the end of next season the trio (UFA again) signs a 5 years deal at the max ea (using their Bird rights with Miami). I don't think there is anything illegal per CBA about it - but I don't think (or hope?) it will fly.

everybody is taking lower salaries - but you see where I am going with it?


I don't know if all your details are correct about what's allowable under the CBA. But as long as the Heat follow the rules, I don't see what the problem is. If the Heat trio are willing to sacrifice $7 million apiece to build a stronger team, that doesn't bother me. Any team could do the same thing - if they could talk players into it. And of course, the Heat trio would be taking the risk that the Heat would resign them to a deal if they got injured. They couldn't be any guarantees in writing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject:

Dominator wrote:
It would be funny if Lebron left and the Heat signed Carmelo to replace him.


Riley would be the best GM of all time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
thegreatest wrote:
Quote:
This would force the Heat to take action on the free-agent market to improve the roster and, essentially, spend money even though they are facing significant luxury-tax penalties.

BS. The Heat barely have any money. All they have is the MMLE to add any significant talent.

It will be crazy if Lebron asks Wade to take less if he isn't sure he is coming back.


Only Wade can be willing to do that proactively.

There isn't a circumstance where I could see one player going to another and asking him "hey, can you take less money?". It goes against every code out there. Never talk or (bleep) with another guy's money.


The way it would work is Lebron, Wade and Bosh would get together and decide if they were all willing to give up money to sign Melo. It would be a joint decision. To sign Melo, they all have to opt out and sign for less.


Right. It'd have to be a decision they all make collectively.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
^^^
I am referring to hypothetical one year deals of lower values the trio would have to take, and then re-upping in a year. Even if Melo took a hit during year one as well - they would want nothing to do with it...


As long as the Heat are following the rules and doing the same thing any other team is going, I don't see anything hypocritical about it.

Also, I believe the rules are if the Heat guys opted out and signed new contracts, they couldn't have an option before the third year. So they would need to take a salary hit for two years.

In addition, they wouldn't have Melo's bird rights, so they couldn't resign him to a higher amount.

My bottom line is if the Heat guys and Melo mutually agreed to take lower salaries so they could play together there is nothing wrong about that.


OK - the numbers might not be accurate but here is the scenario for you.

The salary cap is $63mln, give or take. Miami has $2mln committed to one player and some cap holds at the min ($500K, I might be off on this figure). The trio opts out and signs one year deals with Miami at $13mln each. That's $41mln for 4 players. Cap holds accounts for about another $4mln leaving them $18mln for Melo - they sign him to 4 years deal with max raises for outside free agent. At the end of next season the trio (UFA again) signs a 5 years deal at the max ea (using their Bird rights with Miami). I don't think there is anything illegal per CBA about it - but I don't think (or hope?) it will fly.

everybody is taking lower salaries - but you see where I am going with it?


I don't know if all your details are correct about what's allowable under the CBA. But as long as the Heat follow the rules, I don't see what the problem is. If the Heat trio are willing to sacrifice $7 million apiece to build a stronger team, that doesn't bother me. Any team could do the same thing - if they could talk players into it. And of course, the Heat trio would be taking the risk that the Heat would resign them to a deal if they got injured. They couldn't be any guarantees in writing.


Glenn Taylor, Minnesota owner, might have a problem with it, written agreement or verbal, if you know what I mean.

As to the numbers - as I mentioned above, I am not totally sure of the accuracy of the numbers; just describing the concept of circumvention. Numbers might be off but concept, I think, is totally kosher per CBA
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject:

alexjlake_gr8t wrote:
leor_77 wrote:
They got rid of Joel Anthony and Mike Miller - They would still get curb stomped by the Spurs with those two on the team.


The current cheats situation is perfect ammo against those that say Kobe never made anyone better as the leader while crying about having to play with the likes of Smush and Bynum with the F.O. sitting on their laurels not improving the team as they ALSO promised...



No, that's dumb. The Lakers traded for Pau Gasol - that was a huge improvement to the team. Kobe just started whining one year too early, luckily he didn't implode the entire thing before Mitch had a chance to work some magic.

And no, Mitch didn't make the Gasol deal because of Kobe's ranting.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject:

They won't take massive pay cuts and Melo isn't a role player type. I hope thus us the end of the big three.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Dominator wrote:
It would be funny if Lebron left and the Heat signed Carmelo to replace him.


Riley would be the best GM of all time.


Until the team finished around .500 and lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Pacers. A "big three" of Carmelo, Bosh, and whatever is left of Wade would be painful to watch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject:

The interesting thing about this is that, once again, players are dictating what happens in the NBA. That's the real storyline here. In this age of the NBA, big name players decide what they want to do and pass judgment on management, not vice versa.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Dominator wrote:
It would be funny if Lebron left and the Heat signed Carmelo to replace him.


Riley would be the best GM of all time.


Until the team finished around .500 and lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Pacers. A "big three" of Carmelo, Bosh, and whatever is left of Wade would be painful to watch.


Yeah, right.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Players taking huge salary cuts in the short term and turning down guaranteed money in the long term is not circumvention. It is arguably stupid if money is your main priority, but the league can't stop guys from taking paycuts to play together. Even if the idea is to sign a bigger contract at a later date, the player is still risking something happening (ie injury) as to where those dollars won't be there in the future. For example, if Wade took a huge cut 4 years ago with a "promise" to make more now, well he would be screwed considering he is no longer the same player.

The Heat players can all choose to sign one year minimum league deals to bring everyone in and there is nothing the league can do about it. At the end of the day players have the right to sign max deals or give enormous discounts, for whatever reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:

As to the numbers - as I mentioned above, I am not totally sure of the accuracy of the numbers; just describing the concept of circumvention. Numbers might be off but concept, I think, is totally kosher per CBA


Well, if it's legal it's not circumvention. The idea of players sacrificing salary to be on a better team happens. Heck, the Heat are already full of guys who turned down more money elsewhere - Oden, Allen.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:30 pm    Post subject:

The Pat Riley comments are very telling. I didn't think the threat of Lebron leaving was real until I heard Riley. You see Riley is too cool, and too smart to show irritation based on media reports. So this tells me he has talked to the players and their agents, and the threat of Lebron leaving is real.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
The Pat Riley comments are very telling. I didn't think the threat of Lebron leaving was real until I heard Riley. You see Riley is too cool, and too smart to show irritation based on media reports. So this tells me he has talked to the players and their agents, and the threat of Lebron leaving is real.


Exactly. These sound like strange words from a person who has no fear of Lebron leaving:

Quote:
But he [Riley] also made it clear he expected some loyalty out of the three. “You gotta stay together, if you’ve got the guts. You don’t find the first door and run out of it.​"
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Players taking huge salary cuts in the short term and turning down guaranteed money in the long term is not circumvention. It is arguably stupid if money is your main priority, but the league can't stop guys from taking paycuts to play together. Even if the idea is to sign a bigger contract at a later date, the player is still risking something happening (ie injury) as to where those dollars won't be there in the future. For example, if Wade took a huge cut 4 years ago with a "promise" to make more now, well he would be screwed considering he is no longer the same player.

The Heat players can all choose to sign one year minimum league deals to bring everyone in and there is nothing the league can do about it. At the end of the day players have the right to sign max deals or give enormous discounts, for whatever reason.


activeverb wrote:
Well, if it's legal it's not circumvention. The idea of players sacrificing salary to be on a better team happens. Heck, the Heat are already full of guys who turned down more money elsewhere - Oden, Allen.


You might have your opinion - the league would have their own. Any sign of "wink-wink" side agreement - and it is not even a circumvention. I am not sure if you heard such terms as "basketball reasons", "need to keep a competitive balance", etc - that if you have no proof of the "wink-wink" agreement. Sure - the league will allow these guys to sign one year deals. I am not sure they will signoff on the next year long term max deals. And - the league might forewarn the players about it too. If this kind of unfolding is not called "circumvention" I am not sure what circumvention is.
And, AV, I certainly didn't expect "if it's legal it's not circumvention" pearl of wisdom coming from someone as intelligent as you are. You simply misspoke, perhaps?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:48 am    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Players taking huge salary cuts in the short term and turning down guaranteed money in the long term is not circumvention. It is arguably stupid if money is your main priority, but the league can't stop guys from taking paycuts to play together. Even if the idea is to sign a bigger contract at a later date, the player is still risking something happening (ie injury) as to where those dollars won't be there in the future. For example, if Wade took a huge cut 4 years ago with a "promise" to make more now, well he would be screwed considering he is no longer the same player.

The Heat players can all choose to sign one year minimum league deals to bring everyone in and there is nothing the league can do about it. At the end of the day players have the right to sign max deals or give enormous discounts, for whatever reason.


activeverb wrote:
Well, if it's legal it's not circumvention. The idea of players sacrificing salary to be on a better team happens. Heck, the Heat are already full of guys who turned down more money elsewhere - Oden, Allen.


You might have your opinion - the league would have their own. Any sign of "wink-wink" side agreement - and it is not even a circumvention. I am not sure if you heard such terms as "basketball reasons", "need to keep a competitive balance", etc - that if you have no proof of the "wink-wink" agreement. Sure - the league will allow these guys to sign one year deals. I am not sure they will signoff on the next year long term max deals. And - the league might forewarn the players about it too. If this kind of unfolding is not called "circumvention" I am not sure what circumvention is.
And, AV, I certainly didn't expect "if it's legal it's not circumvention" pearl of wisdom coming from someone as intelligent as you are.


Currently, there's no reason to believe this is happening, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:56 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Players taking huge salary cuts in the short term and turning down guaranteed money in the long term is not circumvention. It is arguably stupid if money is your main priority, but the league can't stop guys from taking paycuts to play together. Even if the idea is to sign a bigger contract at a later date, the player is still risking something happening (ie injury) as to where those dollars won't be there in the future. For example, if Wade took a huge cut 4 years ago with a "promise" to make more now, well he would be screwed considering he is no longer the same player.

The Heat players can all choose to sign one year minimum league deals to bring everyone in and there is nothing the league can do about it. At the end of the day players have the right to sign max deals or give enormous discounts, for whatever reason.


activeverb wrote:
Well, if it's legal it's not circumvention. The idea of players sacrificing salary to be on a better team happens. Heck, the Heat are already full of guys who turned down more money elsewhere - Oden, Allen.


You might have your opinion - the league would have their own. Any sign of "wink-wink" side agreement - and it is not even a circumvention. I am not sure if you heard such terms as "basketball reasons", "need to keep a competitive balance", etc - that if you have no proof of the "wink-wink" agreement. Sure - the league will allow these guys to sign one year deals. I am not sure they will signoff on the next year long term max deals. And - the league might forewarn the players about it too. If this kind of unfolding is not called "circumvention" I am not sure what circumvention is.
And, AV, I certainly didn't expect "if it's legal it's not circumvention" pearl of wisdom coming from someone as intelligent as you are. You simply misspoke, perhaps?


Currently, there's no reason to believe this is happening, though.


Right - nothing is happening currently. We are talking hypothetically
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:01 am    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:
Any sign of "wink-wink" side agreement - and it is not even a circumvention.


If you mean the Glenn Taylor-Joe Smith scenario, that is exactly right. The TWolves signed Smith for a small contract and had a secret side agreement to give him a big raise the following year. That is forbidden. If all of the Heat stars signed one year deals for a paycut, then signed big new deals the following year, the Heat would get killed. The first part is legal, but the second part is too transparent.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:

As to the numbers - as I mentioned above, I am not totally sure of the accuracy of the numbers; just describing the concept of circumvention. Numbers might be off but concept, I think, is totally kosher per CBA


Well, if it's legal it's not circumvention. The idea of players sacrificing salary to be on a better team happens. Heck, the Heat are already full of guys who turned down more money elsewhere - Oden, Allen.


Circumvention is specifically used for things that are legal, if it only applied to things that were illegal in the cba, it would be a meaningless word. It's one of those against the spirit of but not against the technicality of.

Just last year it was used on the Clippers regarding Doc Rivers and Kevin Garnett, do you see anything in the cba preventing what was suggested from occurring?

On Lebron, he took a paycut to get Mike Miller onto the team (technically they took a paycut so Haslem was in via cap space and Miller took the MLE, but Haslem would have been in the MLE had they not), and then Miller got amnestied, lol, of course he has grounds to be pissed off, they're not taking paycuts to save the owner money....


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
Any sign of "wink-wink" side agreement - and it is not even a circumvention.


If you mean the Glenn Taylor-Joe Smith scenario, that is exactly right. The TWolves signed Smith for a small contract and had a secret side agreement to give him a big raise the following year. That is forbidden. If all of the Heat stars signed one year deals for a paycut, then signed big new deals the following year, the Heat would get killed. The first part is legal, but the second part is too transparent.


Right, that's what I am (unsuccessfully) trying to communicate last two pages
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:14 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
Another reason why I don't think he will ever go back to Cleveland...if he's annoyed with Arison, then he must really not like Dan Gilbert...


Lebron is a grown-up and a businessman. If the situation was right, I could see him going back to Cleveland. He's smart enough to know all owners are businessmen with their own agendas.




You don't accept sympathy about leaving the evil slave master Gilbert as if you ran away on one foot ala Kunta Kinte and then run back to massa..
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Players taking huge salary cuts in the short term and turning down guaranteed money in the long term is not circumvention. It is arguably stupid if money is your main priority, but the league can't stop guys from taking paycuts to play together. Even if the idea is to sign a bigger contract at a later date, the player is still risking something happening (ie injury) as to where those dollars won't be there in the future. For example, if Wade took a huge cut 4 years ago with a "promise" to make more now, well he would be screwed considering he is no longer the same player.

The Heat players can all choose to sign one year minimum league deals to bring everyone in and there is nothing the league can do about it. At the end of the day players have the right to sign max deals or give enormous discounts, for whatever reason.


activeverb wrote:
Well, if it's legal it's not circumvention. The idea of players sacrificing salary to be on a better team happens. Heck, the Heat are already full of guys who turned down more money elsewhere - Oden, Allen.


You might have your opinion - the league would have their own. Any sign of "wink-wink" side agreement - and it is not even a circumvention. I am not sure if you heard such terms as "basketball reasons", "need to keep a competitive balance", etc - that if you have no proof of the "wink-wink" agreement. Sure - the league will allow these guys to sign one year deals. I am not sure they will signoff on the next year long term max deals. And - the league might forewarn the players about it too. If this kind of unfolding is not called "circumvention" I am not sure what circumvention is.
And, AV, I certainly didn't expect "if it's legal it's not circumvention" pearl of wisdom coming from someone as intelligent as you are. You simply misspoke, perhaps?


Not sure what you mean: If the league allows something, it isn't circumvention. Circumvention implies people are doing something illegal; if a team and players are making clever moves within the rules, that's okay,

The question is what the league would allow. If the league warns teams and players about what is acceptable and what is not, there isn't any problem.

I have no idea if the league would have a problem with players opting out, taking X dollars less for a one-year deal, and signing again for lots of money. As far as I know, that's never happened. Like I said before, it might depend on the specifics, like how much less they take.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
golakersgo121 wrote:
AV, I certainly didn't expect "if it's legal it's not circumvention" pearl of wisdom coming from someone as intelligent as you are. You simply misspoke, perhaps?


Not sure what you mean: If the league allows something, it isn't circumvention. Circumvention implies people are doing something illegal; if a team and players are making clever moves within the rules, that's okay,

The question is what the league would allow. If the league warns teams and players about what is acceptable and what is not, there isn't any problem.

I have no idea if the league would have a problem with players opting out, taking X dollars less for a one-year deal, and signing again for lots of money. As far as I know, that's never happened. Like I said before, it might depend on the specifics, like how much less they take.

C'mon, AV - is it you?

Do I really need to type here the definition of the word "circumvention" for you

Sure - if it is legal by finding a loophole in the CBA that violates the spirit of the agreement - it is circumvention. Transparent circumvention, I might add (that AH pointed out previously). Are you not aware of Joe Smith/Minny fiasco? Celtics/Clipps trade that never happened?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject:

As much as Kobe's deal may appear to hamstring the Lakers, you still have to think that the other superstars in the league are noticing it. Kobe basically says, "Hell no I'm not undercutting my value. I'll get my money and still find a way to compete."

Meanwhile the owners and team presidents around the league -- even Phil Jackson and Pat Riley -- are trying to sell their superstars that the only way they can win a championship is for everyone to take pay cuts.

Kobe is actually doing the players a favor. If Lebron takes a paycut then all the GMs can say "Hey, Lebron is only making this -- why should we pay you?"
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject:

golakersgo121 wrote:
Sure - if it is legal by finding a loophole in the CBA that violates the spirit of the agreement - it is circumvention. Transparent circumvention, I might add (that AH pointed out previously). Are you not aware of Joe Smith/Minny fiasco? Celtics/Clipps trade that never happened?


Hold up. I think that you and AV are saying the same thing, but are banging heads because you're using different verbiage.

If the CBA allows something, it isn't "circumvention" just because someone finds a clever way to use it.

If the CBA prohibits something, it isn't legal to evade it through subterfuge.

Let's us the Joe Smith case to illustrate this. The CBA did not permit the TWolves to sign Joe Smith to a max deal. The TWolves tried to circumvent that prohibition by (1) signing Smith to a series of small, legal contracts, (2) with a secret, under the table agreement to give him a big contract down the road. That's illegal, because the TWolves and Smith agreed to a future contract that was not permitted by the CBA. The key is that they actually agreed to it in advance. It wasn't just talk.

Here is a more detailed description:

Quote:
Smith had a promising first three seasons as a pro with the Golden State Warriors, but his production took a hit when he was traded to the Philadelphia 76ers in 1998. After the 1999 NBA lockout, he became a free agent, and was highly sought after. He signed a one-year, $1.75 million deal in Minnesota, well below market value, to allow the team to make other moves that offseason. It was a curious decision to say the least, especially considering he had turned down an $80 million extension with the Warriors prior to being traded, only to find that free agency wasn’t as friendly as he had hoped.

As it turns out, Smith and the Timberwolves had an under-the-table agreement in place, where Smith would sign three one-year deals for very little money, allowing the Timberwolves to acquire his Bird rights, which would allow them to go over the salary cap to re-sign him. He would have then been rewarded with a lucrative contract that would have paid him up to $86 million. This arrangement, of course, was highly illegal, and sanctions came down hard on the Timberwolves when the league found out.

According to J.A. Adande, then of the Los Angeles Times, the entire plan was blown open when agents Eric Fleisher and Andrew Miller parted ways. Miller retained Smith and superstar teammate Kevin Garnett in the split, which prompted a lawsuit that led to the unearthing of many documents, including those detailing the Timberwolves’ illegal agreement with Smith.


However, if the CBA did not put a limit on annual increases in a contract, and if the TWolves had cleverly gotten Smith to agree to take $1.75M in years one through three with balloon payments in later years, that would not be illegal or circumvention. But in fact the CBA did not allow that.

So in a sense AV is right: You can circumvent the salary cap, but only as long as you do it within the rules. If Wade, Bosh, and James got together and decided to roll the dice on pay cuts, they could do it. But it just isn't plausible that they would really do that without a promise from Mickey Arison. Given his age and health, would Dwyane Wade really roll the dice on a one year contract without a promise that the Heat would make it up to him?
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