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Roon
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 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Roon wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
I don't think many of those people think Randle will be a better player than Griffin next year.
They probably know that Griffin has played 67, 35, 61 games in his past three seasons.
I don't want to be paying BG 30 million on the other side of thirty. Without his elite athleticism his best case scenario is a better ballhandling, maybe better shooting Milsap with less length, worse defense and worse durability.
Still a good player no doubt, but I don't want to pay that player the max, with his potential injury and attitude problems. |
These are all good points but his injuries seem more like flukes than congenital issues like stress fractures in the feet. Maybe he needs to alter his game until he returns to full health. I can't argue with the economic or injury arguments as they do make sense, but perhaps we might get a bargain because of that perception. As I said, a hobbled Griffin still gets off the ground more than the Randle, Griffin, Millsap type players. |
I don't think Griffin is coming to a non-contender for less than the max. Would I take him on a cheaper deal? I mean probably.
Griffin can definitely get up better than Jules, but Jules already has quicker feet, lateral speed, and straight line speed than BG ever has. People sleep on his athleticism because he doesn't fly like Nance or Griffin. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Chase.button07 wrote: | | tox wrote: | One more thing about Randle that I think people might not realize.
If we can keep Randle and sign LeBron and George, then Randle's contract can be used to help bring back another star.
For example, suppose the Lakers win 32 games. Ingram, who isn't a great fit with Bron and George, has a promising year but he's still far from being a starter on a championship team. LeBron says he'll come, but only if the Lakers can get a 3rd star with him and George.
It's not going to be possible to find that guy in free agency. However, suppose Randle played well this year and he gets signed to a reasonable 4 years / $64M deal. The Lakers can then turn around and trade Randle and Ingram for another star, and receive someone with roughly a $21M contract back. So let's say Kyrie is disgruntled after LeBron's departure. The Lakers could flip Ingram and Randle for Kyrie, and trot out:
Irving/ Ball/ George/ James/ Zubac
Does that team beat the Warriors? Who knows, but it'd attract LeBron. |
hey Tox, how are you planning to sign Lebron, PG and then Randle(with zo and ingram) on the squad |
Well like I said, the point there is to probably trade Randle + BI for another win now move. It's just another option that Randle presents us. The idea was that you can barely squeeze in James and George while keeping Randle's cap hold, and then going over the cap to extend Randle.
But as I noted in a later post, the CBA changed a bit so it wouldn't be possible. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | NBA CBA 2017
| Quote: |
Section 7. Maximum Annual Salary
(i) for any player who has completed fewer than seven (7)
Years of Service, the greater of (x) twenty-five percent
(25%) of the Salary Cap in effect at the time the Contract is
executed, or (y) one hundred five percent (105%) of the
Salary for the final Season of the player’s prior Contract;
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| Quote: |
Section 7. Maximum Annual Salary
(ii) for any player who has completed at least seven (7) but
fewer than ten (10) Years of Service, the greater of (x)
thirty percent (30%) of the Salary Cap in effect at the time
the Contract is executed, or (y) one hundred five percent
(105%) of the Salary for the final Season of the player’s
prior Contract; provided,
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| Quote: |
Section 7. Maximum Annual Salary
(iii) for any player who has completed ten (10) or more Years
of Service, the greater of (x) thirty-five percent (35%) of
the Salary Cap in effect at the time the Contract is
executed, or (y) one hundred five percent (105%) of the
Salary for the final Season of the player’s prior Contract.
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Perhaps I missed some small nuance, but otherwise it looks quite similar to what I posted earlier. |
Yeah this is a pain in the ass to read. I'm not sure if they changed this detail or it's "small nuance" that you missed. Reading now |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Easier to read from Pincus's site:
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3. Maximum Salaries
Maximum annual salaries will be calculated using the actual Salary Cap. (Under the 2011 CBA, a separate (lower) salary cap is used to calculate players’ individual maximum annual salaries.)
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So sadly it appears you are right. That changes everything. |
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nash
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
Griffin is declining.
I'm not really high on Randle, but he is improving and has a lot of run to grow while Griffin without supreme hoops is ... well another average talent that will cost a lot kinda Derik Rose and probably Westbrook as he ages. |
I just noticed that Blake has got his FT% up to 76% compared to being closer to 50% when he was a rookie. This tells me that he's still working on his game. I agree he's not a leader and kind of a b---h, but he's a far better player than Julius. Even with less elevation he's still got a better body for basketball than Randle and probably still gets up higher. |
He has played 67, 35 and 61 games the last 3 seasons while not finishing any of them. |
Another huge reason of concern |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close.
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SocalDevin
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
Griffin is declining.
I'm not really high on Randle, but he is improving and has a lot of run to grow while Griffin without supreme hoops is ... well another average talent that will cost a lot kinda Derik Rose and probably Westbrook as he ages. |
I just noticed that Blake has got his FT% up to 76% compared to being closer to 50% when he was a rookie. This tells me that he's still working on his game. I agree he's not a leader and kind of a b---h, but he's a far better player than Julius. Even with less elevation he's still got a better body for basketball than Randle and probably still gets up higher. |
He has played 67, 35 and 61 games the last 3 seasons while not finishing any of them. |
Another huge reason of concern |
Yep, the only real concern since he's far and away the better of the two. At least for now. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close. |
Randle's younger than he was when he played his first NBA game.
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Lovefool
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
I for one prefer julius over griffin. One is a Laker, the other is not. More importantly, a pursuit of griffin instantly kills any chance lbj or pg coming here. Of course, gotta mention our style of play, blake's age, injury history, and his expected salary. Dude doesnt even dunk regularly anymore. He is a non factor. our front office doesnt even want him..... Next. |
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AllorNothing
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Betting on Griffin will kill our franchise because of his injury history. I rather keep Julius. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close. |
Which is why he's also going to demand 30m.
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Roon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
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h2omike
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | | Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close. |
Randle's younger than he was when he played his first NBA game. |
Griffin developed nicely from being a pogo stick dunker and athletic grinder into a fairly well rounded need player. His shooting improved, good rebounder, and decent passer.
Randle can get there, but his motivation hasn't been consistent. Let's hope he can get there this season. |
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nash
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Roon wrote: | | repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
Russell was a better prospect than Julius IMO. You don't move the best prospect to clear cap space to sign a player that is 'better than Julius Randle', you after a player that can turn you into a contender and Griffin is not projected to be this guy with all the red flags listed above.
I was not against Russell deal because I'm thinking about Top 10 level players. I'm against moving a good player on a rookie deal to sign an expensive player that is not going to be a huge difference maker.
I like Julius for 10 better than Griffin for 30 if we are not going to sign a real stud. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | Roon wrote: | | repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
Russell was a better prospect than Julius IMO. You don't move the best prospect to clear cap space to sign a player that is 'better than Julius Randle', you after a player that can turn you into a contender and Griffin is not projected to be this guy with all the red flags listed above.
I was not against Russell deal because I'm thinking about Top 10 level players. I'm against moving a good player on a rookie deal to sign an expensive player that is not going to be a huge difference maker.
I like Julius for 10 better than Griffin for 30 if we are not going to sign a real stud. |
But I don't think Julius is going to be 10... especially if he improves.
Blake isn't my first choice to go with PG13 --- that would be Cousins and LeBron... but let me put it this way... As someone who grew up idolizing Worthy and Magic... I can visualize Lonzo passing to Blake or PG-13 on the break... but I just see Randle with his shorter arms and smaller hands fumbling the ball out of bounds more. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll look amazing but I can see Blake in the Worthy role much more easily than I do Julius. |
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Truck Turner
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | Roon wrote: | | repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
Russell was a better prospect than Julius IMO. You don't move the best prospect to clear cap space to sign a player that is 'better than Julius Randle', you after a player that can turn you into a contender and Griffin is not projected to be this guy with all the red flags listed above.
I was not against Russell deal because I'm thinking about Top 10 level players. I'm against moving a good player on a rookie deal to sign an expensive player that is not going to be a huge difference maker.
I like Julius for 10 better than Griffin for 30 if we are not going to sign a real stud. |
But I don't think Julius is going to be 10... especially if he improves.
Blake isn't my first choice to go with PG13 --- that would be Cousins and LeBron... but let me put it this way... As someone who grew up idolizing Worthy and Magic... I can visualize Lonzo passing to Blake or PG-13 on the break... but I just see Randle with his shorter arms and smaller hands fumbling the ball out of bounds more. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll look amazing but I can see Blake in the Worthy role much more easily than I do Julius. |
Well, you need to visualize better, because Julius and Blake have the same wingspan and standing reach.
It's been 4 years and people are still over exaggerating Julius lack of length. He's the same size as Blake Griffin and Kevin Love. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Truck Turner wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | Roon wrote: | | repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
Russell was a better prospect than Julius IMO. You don't move the best prospect to clear cap space to sign a player that is 'better than Julius Randle', you after a player that can turn you into a contender and Griffin is not projected to be this guy with all the red flags listed above.
I was not against Russell deal because I'm thinking about Top 10 level players. I'm against moving a good player on a rookie deal to sign an expensive player that is not going to be a huge difference maker.
I like Julius for 10 better than Griffin for 30 if we are not going to sign a real stud. |
But I don't think Julius is going to be 10... especially if he improves.
Blake isn't my first choice to go with PG13 --- that would be Cousins and LeBron... but let me put it this way... As someone who grew up idolizing Worthy and Magic... I can visualize Lonzo passing to Blake or PG-13 on the break... but I just see Randle with his shorter arms and smaller hands fumbling the ball out of bounds more. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll look amazing but I can see Blake in the Worthy role much more easily than I do Julius. |
Well, you need to visualize better, because Julius and Blake have the same wingspan and standing reach.
It's been 4 years and people are still over exaggerating Julius lack of length. He's the same size as Blake Griffin and Kevin Love. |
Then it's hops and hand size, because I can still see Worthy effortlessly finishing... money every time down the floor and Randle just seems more like a bull in a china shop. I don't watch the Clips much so maybe I only see the highlights... but Blake and even this new kid Kuzma look more Worthyesque running the floor. As I said, I hope he continues to improve and I will root for him if he's on our team... but that's just my impression. |
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Truck Turner
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Truck Turner wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | Roon wrote: | | repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
Russell was a better prospect than Julius IMO. You don't move the best prospect to clear cap space to sign a player that is 'better than Julius Randle', you after a player that can turn you into a contender and Griffin is not projected to be this guy with all the red flags listed above.
I was not against Russell deal because I'm thinking about Top 10 level players. I'm against moving a good player on a rookie deal to sign an expensive player that is not going to be a huge difference maker.
I like Julius for 10 better than Griffin for 30 if we are not going to sign a real stud. |
But I don't think Julius is going to be 10... especially if he improves.
Blake isn't my first choice to go with PG13 --- that would be Cousins and LeBron... but let me put it this way... As someone who grew up idolizing Worthy and Magic... I can visualize Lonzo passing to Blake or PG-13 on the break... but I just see Randle with his shorter arms and smaller hands fumbling the ball out of bounds more. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll look amazing but I can see Blake in the Worthy role much more easily than I do Julius. |
Well, you need to visualize better, because Julius and Blake have the same wingspan and standing reach.
It's been 4 years and people are still over exaggerating Julius lack of length. He's the same size as Blake Griffin and Kevin Love. |
Then it's hops and hand size, because I can still see Worthy effortlessly finishing... money every time down the floor and Randle just seems more like a bull in a china shop. I don't watch the Clips much so maybe I only see the highlights... but Blake and even this new kid Kuzma look more Worthyesque running the floor. As I said, I hope he continues to improve and I will root for him if he's on our team... but that's just my impression. |
Julius and Blake also had identical max vertical measurements (35.5"). Blake had a higher no step vertical measurement at 32" while Randle's 29". Blake is more explosive than Julius, but Jules has been working on that since the season ended.
I'm not sure what their respective hand sizes are...
Julius is much more athletic than he's given credit for being. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Truck Turner wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Truck Turner wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | Roon wrote: | | repandpresent wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can't believe so many people would prefer Randle to Griffin. Are we watching the same NBA? |
One junk time triple double will hold some of these people for the duration of his career.
I'm with you. Griffin is superior in every way. Although, he is getting up there in age and the injuries are piling up. |
So he's superior in every way, except age and health, and cost? |
Russell was a better prospect than Julius IMO. You don't move the best prospect to clear cap space to sign a player that is 'better than Julius Randle', you after a player that can turn you into a contender and Griffin is not projected to be this guy with all the red flags listed above.
I was not against Russell deal because I'm thinking about Top 10 level players. I'm against moving a good player on a rookie deal to sign an expensive player that is not going to be a huge difference maker.
I like Julius for 10 better than Griffin for 30 if we are not going to sign a real stud. |
But I don't think Julius is going to be 10... especially if he improves.
Blake isn't my first choice to go with PG13 --- that would be Cousins and LeBron... but let me put it this way... As someone who grew up idolizing Worthy and Magic... I can visualize Lonzo passing to Blake or PG-13 on the break... but I just see Randle with his shorter arms and smaller hands fumbling the ball out of bounds more. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll look amazing but I can see Blake in the Worthy role much more easily than I do Julius. |
Well, you need to visualize better, because Julius and Blake have the same wingspan and standing reach.
It's been 4 years and people are still over exaggerating Julius lack of length. He's the same size as Blake Griffin and Kevin Love. |
Then it's hops and hand size, because I can still see Worthy effortlessly finishing... money every time down the floor and Randle just seems more like a bull in a china shop. I don't watch the Clips much so maybe I only see the highlights... but Blake and even this new kid Kuzma look more Worthyesque running the floor. As I said, I hope he continues to improve and I will root for him if he's on our team... but that's just my impression. |
Julius and Blake also had identical max vertical measurements (35.5"). Blake had a higher no step vertical measurement at 32" while Randle's 29". Blake is more explosive than Julius, but Jules has been working on that since the season ended.
I'm not sure what their respective hand sizes are...
Julius is much more athletic than he's given credit for being. |
Worthy and Blake would hold the ball in one hand gliding downward like a majestic bird when they dunk. Nance can do this also... Never see this from Randle... also I notice that it takes two or three tries to get the ball in the hole for him sometimes... which also might account for the elevated rebounding stats. I'm not trying to troll Randle fans... it's just my objective opinion of what I see... a lot of expended energy and effort but not that much grace. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| h2omike wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | | Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close. |
Randle's younger than he was when he played his first NBA game. |
Griffin developed nicely from being a pogo stick dunker and athletic grinder into a fairly well rounded need player. His shooting improved, good rebounder, and decent passer.
Randle can get there, but his motivation hasn't been consistent. Let's hope he can get there this season. |
Motivation has never been Randle's problem. Direction was, he finally got it, and you see the results.
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LakerEric
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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I've been a Randle critic but appreciate the mad work he's putting in! Rooting for him much like I did DLO. DLO didn't feel like a PG but an eventual "elite" scorer. His aloofness did bother me but was willing to overlook it. Randle will prosper with Lonzo! I hope if a deal for George comes to fruition, it doesn't include Randle.
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Truck Turner
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | *snip*
Worthy and Blake would hold the ball in one hand gliding downward like a majestic bird when they dunk. Nance can do this also... Never see this from Randle... also I notice that it takes two or three tries to get the ball in the hole for him sometimes... which also might account for the elevated rebounding stats. I'm not trying to troll Randle fans... it's just my objective opinion of what I see... a lot of expended energy and effort but not that much grace. |
Some other people have theorized that in the past but it's been debunked.
Julius averaged 8.6 rebounds per game last season and only 2 offensive rebounds per game. In order to put that into perspective Larry Nance Jr averaged 5.9 rebounds per game but 1.9 offensive rebounds per game.
I don't think you're trying to troll, it's just that some of things you've said have been brought up before and debunked.
As I said I don't know what Julius' hand size is, so it might be smaller than Blake or Nance's, which might explain your perception of things. |
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defense
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hopefully he gets that rebound, passes it out to ball quickly and fills that lane along with Brandon. Minimize the Lebroning down the court. Every once in a while is OK but he's a much bigger threat filing the lane. |
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Truck Turner
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | h2omike wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | | Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close. |
Randle's younger than he was when he played his first NBA game. |
Griffin developed nicely from being a pogo stick dunker and athletic grinder into a fairly well rounded need player. His shooting improved, good rebounder, and decent passer.
Randle can get there, but his motivation hasn't been consistent. Let's hope he can get there this season. |
Motivation has never been Randle's problem. Direction was, he finally got it, and you see the results. |
I have to say, one report that came out a few days ago that surprised me was the one that said Randle wasn't handling criticism very well.
The only reason it surprised me is because we were told the exact opposite from both Randle and Walton, that he responded well to harsh criticism and he wanted Luke and his teammates to get on him about his mistakes. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Truck Turner wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | h2omike wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | | Griffin is a much better player than Randle and honestly it isn't close. |
Randle's younger than he was when he played his first NBA game. |
Griffin developed nicely from being a pogo stick dunker and athletic grinder into a fairly well rounded need player. His shooting improved, good rebounder, and decent passer.
Randle can get there, but his motivation hasn't been consistent. Let's hope he can get there this season. |
Motivation has never been Randle's problem. Direction was, he finally got it, and you see the results. |
I have to say, one report that came out a few days ago that surprised me was the one that said Randle wasn't handling criticism very well.
The only reason it surprised me is because we were told the exact opposite from both Randle and Walton, that he responded well to harsh criticism and he wanted Luke and his teammates to get on him about his mistakes. |
Exactly!
Not just from Walton, but from POPOVICH. And Popovich doesn't BS about that kind of thing. So that made me question the validity of the 'inside sources' saying that about him.
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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