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Judah
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 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Judah wrote: |
lol...examples of what? Two max level free agents in their late 20's to mid 30's coming to play with young prospects in their early 20's? Well geez, I guess if that exact s. |
Name me a max level free agent in the last 15 years that went to a losing team without an already established star, like you expect LeBron or George to do for us.
That eliminates "but LeBron went to Cleveland!!" Cause Kyrie was already an established star entering his 4th year that was an established 20-22 ppg scorer. Neither Lonzo nor Ingram is at that point yet so you'll have to look elsewhere.
Don't worry I'll wait. |
Yeah, just keep moving those goalposts back and try to make the target as narrow as possible so it can't be hit  But seriously, what kind of argument is that? Are you purposely ignoring the fact that if one of LeBron/George signs up next year, it would most likely be because they're doing it together? The Lakers wouldn't need an established star on the roster already if those guys are teaming up. And everyone in the NBA world recognizes that that's exactly what they're gearing up to do. Hence, BI and Zo don't need to break out as stars this year. The only thing they need to prove is that they're capable of being competent role players, because that's all they'd have to be if LeBron and George were to come.
And since you're still dodging it, list the players on the current roster who will be 19 years old when next season starts. I'd wait, but it'd be foolish of me to do so since you and I both know that you can't do it. Your 'they're too young' argument is such a huge exaggeration that you're stubbornly (and knowingly) shaving two years off of BI and Lonzo's ages just to make them even younger; and all of this just so your putrid argument can have some semblance of solidarity to it.
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MJST
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Judah wrote: |
lol...examples of what? Two max level free agents in their late 20's to mid 30's coming to play with young prospects in their early 20's? Well geez, I guess if that exact s. |
Name me a max level free agent in the last 15 years that went to a losing team without an already established star, like you expect LeBron or George to do for us.
That eliminates "but LeBron went to Cleveland!!" Cause Kyrie was already an established star entering his 4th year that was an established 20-22 ppg scorer. Neither Lonzo nor Ingram is at that point yet so you'll have to look elsewhere.
Don't worry I'll wait. |
Yeah, just keep moving those goalposts back and try to make the target as |
Dude just stop it.
I very obviously broadened the goal posts and you still don't have an answer.
You won't dude, we both already know this.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | nash wrote: | The main problem with Randle is his contract situation.
We have four PF, Nance and Kuzma will be under rookie deals longer and Deng is signed long-term.
Nance and Deng are better defenders than him and Kuzma is more active on defense, it has to be seem if he is going to be effective or another JC.
When you hear Pelinka telling Kuzma is going to play no matter what and taking into account his excellent summer league performance, it is up to him perform among pros to be considered a keeper.
It is supposed to be the season when Julius will finally post better advanced stats than Larry Nance Jr, but he has to separate himself because Nance contract situation and projected future salary raises put him in better position to be kept IMO.
Everybody would like to move Deng, the problem is going to be finding takers.
One good thing is that we moved one young player, but we have four rookies in place at least three of them I believe are going to have long NBA careers and we still have several other young players so it is not like our stock of youth is going to be depleted.
It is just a logical analysis considering all the variables. |
Lakers say Kuzma can play the Small Forward and expect to give him minutes there.
His backup 3 means that Deng is the one he's fighting for that position and Nance is the one he's fighting for Backup 4 position, but Nance is also going to be fighting Zubac for backup 5 position if the team runs Small.
Randle isn't the one who's in danger of getting outplayed for his spot.
Everyone kept saying last year "oh watch Larry's gonna win the starting spot!" didn't happen, as Randle had improved leaps and bounds from the previous year in ways people decided to 'assume' he couldn't and were wrong, and some are still having a hard time accepting that.
Don't make the same mistake with Kuzma.
Where Kuzma likely will be righting is Deng for the backup 3 and Nance for the backup 4 but Nance will also be trying to prove he's a viable backup 5 when we run small, so THAT is where the logjam/battle will be happening.
Randle's contract situation is 12.4M cap hold regardless of what happens.
Also bigger problem, you're worried about "CAP FOR TWO MAX'S!" when we don't even have a guarantee to sign one. Which we WILL have space for on day one of free agency even without moving anyone. So take that into account.
If we signed one max guy then the Lakers would make the necessary moves for a 2nd one if that was 1) part of the agreement or 2) they think it possible.
That is the ONLY time they should be aiming to do that.
Said it once, will say it a thousand times. Approaching this season as if the "two max plan in free agency" is a 100% definite and all you have to do is clear cap and you're guaranteed it is the wrong approach and way to think about it. |
Kuzma's long term position is not the 3. And he's got way more upside than Larry. Just as much, if not more upside in the modern game than Julius - so don't compare a Kuzma rise to a Nance rise.
Kuzma could be a 3-4 3PM per game guy, with better D than Randle. At a lower price, you kick Randle to the curb and wish him great luck at the next spot.
Last edited by KeepItRealOrElse on Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Judah
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Judah wrote: |
lol...examples of what? Two max level free agents in their late 20's to mid 30's coming to play with young prospects in their early 20's? Well geez, I guess if that exact s. |
Name me a max level free agent in the last 15 years that went to a losing team without an already established star, like you expect LeBron or George to do for us.
That eliminates "but LeBron went to Cleveland!!" Cause Kyrie was already an established star entering his 4th year that was an established 20-22 ppg scorer. Neither Lonzo nor Ingram is at that point yet so you'll have to look elsewhere.
Don't worry I'll wait. |
Yeah, just keep moving those goalposts back and try to make the target as |
Dude just stop it.
I very obviously broadened the goal posts and you still don't have an answer.
You won't dude, we both already know this. |
No. Any fairminded person can recognize that you clearly just moved the goalpost. One max level player joining a team without a clear star already on the roster? Clearly that isn't the norm, but how much weight does it even carry since that wouldn't be the situation a year from now anyways? Again, everyone recognizes that LeBron and George are almost a packaged deal for the Lakers. The Lakers are unlikely to get one without the other. But if they do get one, their chances of getting the other increases dramatically, no?
Personally, I believe that the two of them have probably already agreed to do it together and that the two max plan stems from it (as well as George's strange, indirect announcement that he's coming here next year, which resulted in Indiana trading him). But both of those things are somewhat beside the point, which is that your scenario fails application wise. I'm pretty sure most people recognize that there's a cataclysmic difference between LeBron signing up to play with just Lonzo and Ingram, rather than Lonzo, Ingram and George. Or George signing up to play with just Lonzo and Ingram instead of those two and LeBron. You don't think there's an enormous difference in those two scenarios? If so, congratulations on being the only person on the planet who doesn't.
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“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper
Last edited by Judah on Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Judah wrote: |
lol...examples of what? Two max level free agents in their late 20's to mid 30's coming to play with young prospects in their early 20's? Well geez, I guess if that exact s. |
Name me a max level free agent in the last 15 years that went to a losing team without an already established star, like you expect LeBron or George to do for us.
That eliminates "but LeBron went to Cleveland!!" Cause Kyrie was already an established star entering his 4th year that was an established 20-22 ppg scorer. Neither Lonzo nor Ingram is at that point yet so you'll have to look elsewhere.
Don't worry I'll wait. |
Yeah, just keep moving those goalposts back and try to make the target as |
Dude just stop it.
I very obviously broadened the goal posts and you still don't have an answer.
You won't dude, we both already know this. |
No. Any fairminded person can recognize that you clearly just moved the goalpost. |
Nope, I didn't.
it's a very simple question.
"Name me a max level free agent in the last 15 years that went to a losing team without an already established star, like you expect LeBron or George to do for us. "
It was a very simple question.
| Judah wrote: | | One max level player joining a team without a clear star already on the roster? Clearly that isn't the norm, but how much weight does it even carry since that wouldn't be the situation a year from now anyways? |
it carries the weight because you believe so strongly that it's gonna happen, but if I ask you to name a scenario where it happened and gave you a 15 year window you won't find any.
So what actual evidence or backing is behind this frame of thinking aside from the "we're the special snowflake"
| Judah wrote: | | Again, everyone recognizes that LeBron and George are almost a packaged deal for the Lakers. The Lakers are unlikely to get one without the other. But if they do get one, their chances of getting the other increases dramatically, no? |
Do you think LeBron thinks that if he has Paul George as his 2nd option that he's going to beat Golden State? If not then why would he come because of Paul George? Paul George didn't even make an All-NBA team last year AND has been surpassed by Jimmy Butler, so why is Paul George suddenly the golden child that LeBron would go "man if I could play with him.. we could win a Championship!" aside from the fact he's been way overhyped suddenly because he was one of the few that it was reported showed interest in us? Because that's essentially when it took off.
| Judah wrote: | | Personally, I believe that the two of them have probably already agreed to do it together |
Then you think very little about their character. You think they agreed to do this a year in advance and are just gonna play this season "riding it out" and just looking ahead to next year when they can join the Lakers. Which makes this season a phone in?
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there.
| Judah wrote: | | But both of those things are somewhat beside the point, which is that your scenario fails application wise. I'm pretty sure most people recognize that there's a cataclysmic difference between LeBron signing up to play with just Lonzo and Ingram, rather than Lonzo, Ingram and George. Or George signing up to play with just Lonzo and Ingram instead of those two and LeBron. You don't think there's an enormous difference in those two scenarios? If so, congratulations on being the only person on the planet who does. |
Nope I just understand the unlikeliness of all of that happening.
There is nothing in Paul George that tells me that LeBron would think HE is the missing piece that could carry us through the West and against the Warriors.
There is nothing as of yet shown to me that Ingram or Lonzo would be ready to be primary contributors to a Championship roster within one season from this current one.
So as of right now, it's a pipe dream, a very unlikely one. But it's attached to such a strong base of "IT'S SO GONNA HAPPEN WE GOTTA PLAN FOR IT TO HAPPEN NOW CAUSE ALL WE GOTTA DO IS CLEAR CAP AND IT WILL HAPPEN!!!" and they address this very season with that kind of arrogance but they have absolutely no evidence of such a thing happening for teams in our current predicament.
The only reasoning they have behind it is "we're the Lakers" And sorry, it's gonna take a LOT more than just that.
Speaking of which, there's also going to be a team in Philadelphia, coincidentally in the East, that's likely going to make the Playoffs this year, and gonna have 61M in cap space available as well as LeBron James' protege whom he's spent the off-season working with.
To each their own so I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree then.
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Last edited by MJST on Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Sigh.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Speaking of which, there's also going to be a team in Philadelphia, coincidentally in the East, that's likely going to make the Playoffs this year, and gonna have 61M in cap space available as well as LeBron James' protege whom he's spent the off-season working with. |
They don't have 61m in cap space. That's been disproven. Are they not re-signing Embiid or Covington?
The reasons for LBJ leaving the Cavs for the Lakers has to do with other non-basketball reasons too. What do the 76ers offer? A cheesesteak empire for LBJ?
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Zubolo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade)
Last edited by Zubolo on Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick, do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
I wouldn't be so quick to trade Jules now. Out of JC/Jules, I'm more willing to give Jules a season to see if he's worth keeping. Sub in JC and take out Portis and we have a deal.
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Zubolo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick, do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
I wouldn't be so quick to trade Jules now. Out of JC/Jules, I'm more willing to give Jules a season to see if he's worth keeping. Sub in JC and take out Portis and we have a deal. |
If it was right now or never for the chance to get out of Deng's deal and it came down to this very deal or nothing, you still wouldn't do it? |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
Tempting. I would be 60/40 in favor although I hate giving up 1st round picks.
Don't think the Bulls do it anyways, but interesting proposal. Speaking of the bulls, markannen has been killing it in FIBA. He looks legit. I feel like he is even better than what I saw of him at Arizona. Porzingis/Nowitzki type game. Looks like the perfect 5, deadly 3 point shooter in today's NBA. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Zubolo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick, do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
I wouldn't be so quick to trade Jules now. Out of JC/Jules, I'm more willing to give Jules a season to see if he's worth keeping. Sub in JC and take out Portis and we have a deal. |
If it was right now or never for the chance to get out of Deng's deal and it came down to this very deal or nothing, you still wouldn't do it? |
Honestly, no.
Jules is a wildcard for me this year and worth seeing if he's a long-time keeper.
I would be willing to take out Portis and add JC instead.
But this proposition is dubious.
JC/Deng = 30m+ in cap space a year.
Jules/Deng will be 30m+ in cap space going forward.
Really doubt Chicago wants that kind of cap impact going forward as they rebuild.
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calistrtballr
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Julius stays, deng takes a medical "wink wink" retirement deal from magic |
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2019
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
I think you have to. Sorry to lose Ju but Portis is a decent player and Wade would be a big addition. Move Nance to the starting 5 and hope for the best.
Clearling all that cap space would the hugeeeeee. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
I think you have to. Sorry to lose Ju but Portis is a decent player and Wade would be a big addition. Move Nance to the starting 5 and hope for the best.
Clearling all that cap space would the hugeeeeee. |
I just don't see why Chicago would encumber itself with 30m+ on Deng/Jules going forward (once Jules is extended).
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Chase.button07
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Joined: 19 Feb 2017
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Chase.button07 wrote: | | MJST wrote: |
How about you answer the first question first?
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I was going to add "but I know you don't have an answer so I expect your typical which is your go to when someone makes a point you can't counter"
but sadly you beat me to it. kudos for predictability though.  As usual, you have nothing. Point's been made. |
no i perfectly answered your question with mine. you just didnt get it. Hence i was laughing because u asking me again to answer your question
1 quick note: don't bother to write another 1 page essay. don't have time to read all that. quantity doesn't mean quality
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | | Zubolo wrote: | Quick question: So if today,
the Chicago Bulls offered Wade, Bobby Portis for Randle, Deng and 2020 1st round pick do you do it? Throw in one of the second round picks they gave us last year (Calderon trade) |
I think you have to. Sorry to lose Ju but Portis is a decent player and Wade would be a big addition. Move Nance to the starting 5 and hope for the best.
Clearling all that cap space would the hugeeeeee. |
I just don't see why Chicago would encumber itself with 30m+ on Deng/Jules going forward (once Jules is extended). |
They wouldn't. No way the Bulls take on that salary imo. You would have to overpay with multiple 1st round picks for them to consider it and that would be foolish from the Lakers perspective. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: |
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I think the eventual asking price for Deng will be 2 future 1sts. It'll be costly.
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Dr. Funkbot
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| calistrtballr wrote: | | Julius stays, deng takes a medical "wink wink" retirement deal from magic |
Seriously, I've been pining for a Deng medical retirement for "ages" now.
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MJST
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markjay
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the eventual asking price for Deng will be 2 future 1sts. It'll be costly. |
If Randall and Clarkson both play well enough to trade but not so well as to keep, hopefully the lakers get lucky and land a couple of firsts for trading them, and then use those firsts to dump Deng.
Unlikely, I know, but a man can dream! |
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epak
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| markjay wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the eventual asking price for Deng will be 2 future 1sts. It'll be costly. |
If Randall and Clarkson both play well enough to trade but not so well as to keep, hopefully the lakers get lucky and land a couple of firsts for trading them, and then use those firsts to dump Deng.
Unlikely, I know, but a man can dream! |
Next summer with Deng on contract for only 2 more years, you think it would cost at least 2 1st rounders? Why do I feel like it wont cost that much. |
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nash
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the eventual asking price for Deng will be 2 future 1sts. It'll be costly. |
Deng can be a serviceable player in the right environment, a good option for us is trading him for a worst player under a shorter deal that would be less painful to stretch. I don't like the idea os stretching Deng because it hurts too much our flexibility going forward.
My hope this season is Julius improving enough to turn himself into a desirable asset around the league that could help us to unload Deng without giving away as many future considerations. If he changes the league perception to this point a team will want to keep his bird rights and it can be of his interest to stay in the place he is traded.
Someone else had the idea that I'm expecting Randle to become a 24 and 10 player. That is not true at all, but that is a threshold that will make me want him over PG13. Folks talk about him like a KAT our Jokic, what I see is a good young player that still has to post a better BPM than Larry Nance. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | markjay wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the eventual asking price for Deng will be 2 future 1sts. It'll be costly. |
If Randall and Clarkson both play well enough to trade but not so well as to keep, hopefully the lakers get lucky and land a couple of firsts for trading them, and then use those firsts to dump Deng.
Unlikely, I know, but a man can dream! |
Next summer with Deng on contract for only 2 more years, you think it would cost at least 2 1st rounders? Why do I feel like it wont cost that much. |
Because our picks will be trash if we get our 2 max players.
Teams won't be eager, in a cap strapped world post 2016, to help the Lakers get 2 max spots?
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | defense wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | defense wrote: | | Quote: | | Max level free agents in a "win now" mode aren't coming to wait for 3-4 seasons for Lonzo or BI to get to "that point". If that was the case, LeBron wouldn't have had Wiggins shipped off for Kevin Love. |
And yet Lebron didn't ship out a very young Kyrie because he knew he could help him win a ring and he was right. |
Kyrie was already a 20-22 ppg scorer by that time and had been in the league for 3 seasons. Neither Lonzo nor Ingram is in that position or at that point in their careers. So that comparison doesn't work.
The only young player we had that could even be considered close to that kind of breakthrough as a scorer THIS season is the one we sent to Brooklyn for Lopez. |
Its not about 20 points per game. Its about understanding that they may have the tools to help win. As far as the stats go wait until the end of this season before you boldly declare that Ingram and Lonzo aren't good enough to help a team with Lebron and George. |
And maybe they just didn't think Wiggins was very good. They did wait until he completed an underwhelming summer league before actually trading him. Would even the Cavs back then have traded Lonzo after the SPL he just had? |
If it meant getting Lebron, yes.
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