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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
slavavov wrote:
My fear with Randle coming off the bench is that he may not even consider staying with the Lakers just because he'll want to and maybe deserve to start. Makes bringing him off the bench even more of a conundrum even though he seemed to play better off the bench in the preseason.


Kuzma gon' be better we don't need him to start going forward


Kuzma is also one of Luke's options to start at the 2 in place of KCP.

Part of me really hopes he tries that and Kuzma does well.

the other part of me just thinks Luke is gonna pick brewer or something.


I was just talking about like next season and going forward..


Going forward Kuzma looks like a 3 tbh.


in a world of Julius Randle love, sure.
In the modern NBA Kuzma isn't a 3 going forward, he'll get stronger and have more advantages at the 4.. league is getting smaller as well
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:47 pm    Post subject:

anpherknee wrote:
I might not be signing my fan extension either guise



Have faith anph.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject:

kinda off topic,

"young core" went from

https://www.instagram.com/p/BLC8DsbhEk_/?hl=en&taken-by=jordanclarksons

to

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaVZXXhAbRp/?taken-by=kuzmakyle

time flies lol..

i still remember being hyped af for julius dlo n jc..

remember when they all had like 25+ pts vs Orlando & was the 1st time since OKC harden kd russ to have 3 players 23 or younger score 25 each or something like that
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject:

Quote:

When Larry's out there, we're playing 4 on 5 offensively. Or 3 on 5 technically given our lineup.


This is no different from Javale McGee or Andrew Bogut playing C. GSW may have the shooters, but the point is, it takes 4 guys to create the spacing and it's "OK" to have a guy with zero gravity out there. It's not ideal, but it can work.

I definitely get the idea that LNJ may get rooted out of the line up because he's not really an offensive threat, BUT, his value lies on the defensive end and with the ball going to the top offensive options, period.

You mention finding off-ball cutters? That would be Lopez's job within the offense, not Nance. Nance is clearly better off-ball over Randle. You talk about operating in the post to draw in doubles and triples? Once again, that's Lopez's job, not Nance. Let Lopez be the apex of what you want to happen, not Julius Randle. It seems that people are focused on JR's offensive success as a hub at the offense, yet, in the couple of games that he started, admittedly next to LNJ, we didn't see these great passes. We actually saw even more bulldozing, except against starting wings that rotated early because they know his scoring mentality. Neither guy really established themselves as perimeter threats, even if JR is far improved behind the arc and especially from midrange. It's not like JR draws massive gravity to help Lopez. So, why on earth are we facilitating to Randle instead of the proven 20ppg veteran that can space the floor, establish position, and make a few passes?

JR doesn't guarantee the ball swings. Even last game, even when he's drawing And 1's, he still doesn't find Kuzma in the corners. What's the point of Lopez if he can't get the ball? Highlight JR in the paint? So, make JR the scorer over Lopez?

Like I said, best positions to succeed. JR and Nance were proven in their respective lineups. Put Randle next to Lopez and you've shot LNJ out of the lineup.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. My idea of LNJ starting is mostly based on 10-15mpg with JR and Kuzma dominating power frontline minutes anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
slavavov wrote:
My fear with Randle coming off the bench is that he may not even consider staying with the Lakers just because he'll want to and maybe deserve to start. Makes bringing him off the bench even more of a conundrum even though he seemed to play better off the bench in the preseason.


Kuzma gon' be better we don't need him to start going forward


Kuzma is also one of Luke's options to start at the 2 in place of KCP.

Part of me really hopes he tries that and Kuzma does well.

the other part of me just thinks Luke is gonna pick brewer or something.



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. My idea of LNJ starting is mostly based on 10-15mpg with JR and Kuzma dominating power frontline minutes anyway.


because no matter how many times we hear it or even claim it.....deep down inside, we have been indoctrinated to feel starting matters in sports.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject:

Randle is a keeper. I especially like his passion and work ethic. Although he is still rather raw, he has kept improving his condition and skills.

Nance may fit better with Lopez, but Randle deserves starter minutes.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

When Larry's out there, we're playing 4 on 5 offensively. Or 3 on 5 technically given our lineup.


This is no different from Javale McGee or Andrew Bogut playing C.


That's different when you have 3 to 4 all stars on your team and a lineup where 1-3 can shoot over 38-40%+ from three and capable of putting up 30 each on any given night.

And Nance isn't clearly off ball better than Randle. It's just that tje only plays he's capable of actually doing at an NBA level is finishing on fast breaks.

What's Nance do off ball? Roam around off ball and find the open spots to get the pass to an open jump shot he's not going to take and due to him being incapable of creating anything off the dribble passes it away with 5 secs on the shot clock? Yeah that's not much of a help.


And you must have missed some of Randle I gather, because he found a lot of guys on the perimeter for shots PARTICULARLY when he drew the defense, AND he's actively searched for Kuzma and found him.

I'm not going to complain about the ball not going to Kuzma in the corners if Randle gets fouled or makes the shot drawing an and-1 and why would I?

Particularly when I see Randle find Kuzma plenty of other times, and find perimeter guys plenty of other times when he draws the defense in.

So what I'm seeing is Randle is either taking it inside off the dribble to draw a foul or finish which he's been successful at. OR he passes it out to the perimeter when he draws the defense. Two things Nance is incapable of doing with any kind of consistency at the NBA level.

Randle in 21 mins essentially was putting up last years stats in 7 less minutes. The amount of better he is than Nance warrants him starting over him. You wouldn't bench Damian Lillard for Brandon Knight and say it doesn't matter if Lillard starts.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
MJST wrote:


Going forward Kuzma looks like a 3 tbh.


in a world of Julius Randle love, sure.
In the modern NBA Kuzma isn't a 3 going forward, he'll get stronger and have more advantages at the 4.. league is getting smaller as well


How much stronger do you honestly expect him to get? He's already 22. Also who are these small 4s you're talking about? Kristaps? AD? Blake? Isaac? Markennen? Bam? You have guys like Zo, Giannis, Simmons playing the 1. If anything, the league is getting bigger.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

When Larry's out there, we're playing 4 on 5 offensively. Or 3 on 5 technically given our lineup.


This is no different from Javale McGee or Andrew Bogut playing C.


That's different when you have 3 to 4 all stars on your team and a lineup where 1-3 can shoot over 38-40%+ from three and capable of putting up 30 each on any given night.

And Nance isn't clearly off ball better than Randle. It's just that tje only plays he's capable of actually doing at an NBA level is finishing on fast breaks.

What's Nance do off ball? Roam around off ball and find the open spots to get the pass to an open jump shot he's not going to take and due to him being incapable of creating anything off the dribble passes it away with 5 secs on the shot clock? Yeah that's not much of a help.


And you must have missed some of Randle I gather, because he found a lot of guys on the perimeter for shots PARTICULARLY when he drew the defense, AND he's actively searched for Kuzma and found him.

I'm not going to complain about the ball not going to Kuzma in the corners if Randle gets fouled or makes the shot drawing an and-1 and why would I?

Particularly when I see Randle find Kuzma plenty of other times, and find perimeter guys plenty of other times when he draws the defense in.

So what I'm seeing is Randle is either taking it inside off the dribble to draw a foul or finish which he's been successful at. OR he passes it out to the perimeter when he draws the defense. Two things Nance is incapable of doing with any kind of consistency at the NBA level.

Randle in 21 mins essentially was putting up last years stats in 7 less minutes. The amount of better he is than Nance warrants him starting over him. You wouldn't bench Damian Lillard for Brandon Knight and say it doesn't matter if Lillard starts.


Call me picky, but I'm not bought into Randle's court vision and passing. I've seen more instinctive/intuitive passing out of Kuzma than I have out of Randle, especially on drives, which I find a bit shocking.

Randle doesn't always kick out and when he comes off the pine, he draws those And 1s. When it's against starters? He draws charges. That was the difference in the preseason. Randle playing backup C as opposed to starting PF (so far this preseason) has looked like two different guys.

Everything your saying is predicated with Randle WITH the ball. Once again, he's the playmaker, but why? The offense runs through Lopez, not Randle.

I definitely don't agree with your PG example.

Randle is most comfortable with the ball in his hands. Why on earth are we taking that away when Lopez is the #1 guy? Wasn't it blatantly obvious how much of a different player Randle was acting as a #1 guy off the bench with an exploited matchup?

Yeah, Randle does find Kuzma. That's the bench lineup I keep referring to. Randle at C, Kuzma at PF.

Frankly, I think it's weird that people want to relegate Lopez as this 3-point bombing center, when a lot of his damage is done midrange and in. Fortunately he shoots good volume behind the arc.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:24 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
slavavov wrote:
My fear with Randle coming off the bench is that he may not even consider staying with the Lakers just because he'll want to and maybe deserve to start. Makes bringing him off the bench even more of a conundrum even though he seemed to play better off the bench in the preseason.


Kuzma gon' be better we don't need him to start going forward


Kuzma is also one of Luke's options to start at the 2 in place of KCP.

Part of me really hopes he tries that and Kuzma does well.

the other part of me just thinks Luke is gonna pick brewer or something.


I was just talking about like next season and going forward..


Going forward Kuzma looks like a 3 tbh.


in a world of Julius Randle love, sure.
In the modern NBA Kuzma isn't a 3 going forward, he'll get stronger and have more advantages at the 4.. league is getting smaller as well


maybe one day. dude was getting pushed back a foot everytime ol' joe would back into him. until he gains the strength you are sure he will, he is a 3. if u wanna see that other stuff go to mens central.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject:

He needs the ball to get the assists, yes that's true, everyone is. but its usually simple pass like handoff. It doesn't like he holding the ball for the eternity and then pass the ball.

he averaging 3.6 apg last season, doesn't mean he need the ball all of the time or steal the posession away from Brook Lopez. It doesn't make sense. It make sense from the paper, but if you truly watch and understand the game, it doesn't make sense.

Hell Brook Lopez and him probably the best possible lineup combination for the Lakers.

i mean yeah let have Nance who isn't as good as passer as Randle, doesn't mean he doesn't need the ball so its easy to install him as starter. It's a fallacy. Just because Randle can give you some "easy" assists doesn't mean he hog the ball. You optimally need all your players not clueless when they get the ball. See the Warriros or another smallball team. Small ball means fast and SKILLED. Its common mistake to think in small ball you only need to play fast.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject:

Randle is the type the stop and read, rather that continuously move and keep the ball moving like Nance.

This isn't just about assists.

The best lineup actually is Lopez and Kuzma in the frontline. We never got the chance to see that either. Kuzma has the passing chops, pick and slips, and the shooting. He doesn't stop to read, he continuously moves too.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Randle is the type the stop and read, rather that continuously move and keep the ball moving like Nance.

This isn't just about assists.

The best lineup actually is Lopez and Kuzma in the frontline. We never got the chance to see that either. Kuzma has the passing chops, pick and slips, and the shooting. He doesn't stop to read, he continuously moves too.

Offensively, you're right, but on defense and from a quickness standpoint, because of Lopez, they could have serious problems.

Luke is right. Nance is the best fit next to Lopez. No question there for me.

The question for me is why are the Lakers resigned to pstarting or even playing Lopez?

On my count, there are nearly ten PFs and centers on the roster. Lopez has a resume, for sure, but why are the Lakers handing him one of those starting roles with there's so many other options to consider on the roster?

Nance, Randle, Bryant, Zubac, and even Deng (don't laugh) have the potential to be more impactful than Lopez on both ends of the court.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
slavavov wrote:
My fear with Randle coming off the bench is that he may not even consider staying with the Lakers just because he'll want to and maybe deserve to start. Makes bringing him off the bench even more of a conundrum even though he seemed to play better off the bench in the preseason.


Kuzma gon' be better we don't need him to start going forward


Kuzma isn’t in the same ball park. He struggled against Clipper 3rd stringers. But hype, right?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Randle is the type the stop and read, rather that continuously move and keep the ball moving like Nance.

This isn't just about assists.

The best lineup actually is Lopez and Kuzma in the frontline. We never got the chance to see that either. Kuzma has the passing chops, pick and slips, and the shooting. He doesn't stop to read, he continuously moves too.

Offensively, you're right, but on defense and from a quickness standpoint, because of Lopez, they could have serious problems.

Luke is right. Nance is the best fit next to Lopez. No question there for me.

The question for me is why are the Lakers resigned to pstarting or even playing Lopez?

On my count, there are nearly ten PFs and centers on the roster. Lopez has a resume, for sure, but why are the Lakers handing him one of those starting roles with there's so many other options to consider on the roster?

Nance, Randle, Bryant, Zubac, and even Deng (don't laugh) have the potential to be more impactful than Lopez on both ends of the court.



Spacing will be an issue without Russell, Williams and Young in the rotation. Playing Lopez helps regain some of what they lost.

If Lopez is dropped from the rotation, who is the three pointer shooter that opposing defenses are supposed to respect?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject:

From a quickness standpoint, Kuzma has held his own, especially against perimeter switches.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Randle is the type the stop and read, rather that continuously move and keep the ball moving like Nance.

This isn't just about assists.

The best lineup actually is Lopez and Kuzma in the frontline. We never got the chance to see that either. Kuzma has the passing chops, pick and slips, and the shooting. He doesn't stop to read, he continuously moves too.

Offensively, you're right, but on defense and from a quickness standpoint, because of Lopez, they could have serious problems.

Luke is right. Nance is the best fit next to Lopez. No question there for me.

The question for me is why are the Lakers resigned to pstarting or even playing Lopez?

On my count, there are nearly ten PFs and centers on the roster. Lopez has a resume, for sure, but why are the Lakers handing him one of those starting roles with there's so many other options to consider on the roster?

Nance, Randle, Bryant, Zubac, and even Deng (don't laugh) have the potential to be more impactful than Lopez on both ends of the court.


Your idea is to have our best player come off the bench and pray that one of the young bigs become as good as him? So while we lose in terrible fashion and Lakers fans and the media roast Luke for sitting one of the better centers in the league, you get what you want.

Why are the Lakers handing the proven vet in his prime the starting role while not handing it to the unproven young players? That's such a paradox.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

First, I disagree that Nance is a better fit next to Lopez than Randle. Randle is a better rebounder than Nance (one of Lopez's weaknesses) and is a better slasher than Nance. He's also a better scorer and, due to his ability to get to the rim and draw defenders, would also be better at creating shots for Lopez. From any angle, based on the preseason play (no less prior seasons), Randle should be starting.

We are also still developing players. There is also something to be said for coaching. While I disagree that Nance is a better fit than Randle, fit shouldn't matter at this point. We need to give Randle an opportunity to see what he can do because a decision about him will have to made this summer. Further, even if Randle doesn't "fit" as well as Nance right now (which I disagree with), help him to fit. That's what a coach does. You need your best players on the floor as much as possible.

A trend is emerging that, instead of a plan or direction, Luke seems to be overthinking things too much. We can win games, develop players and answer some roster questions all at the same time. Ball/KCP/Ingram/Randle/Lopez. That should be our lineup, Its pretty simple.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Randle is the type the stop and read, rather that continuously move and keep the ball moving like Nance.

This isn't just about assists.

The best lineup actually is Lopez and Kuzma in the frontline. We never got the chance to see that either. Kuzma has the passing chops, pick and slips, and the shooting. He doesn't stop to read, he continuously moves too.


So we have given up on defense? And it is about assists, they put points on the board. Kuzma and Lopez might average 8 rebounds per game, you are confident in giving the opponent that many opportunities?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject:

1. Lopez doesn't rebound well but has a high box out rate, hence the Nets were amazing at team rebounding altogether.

2. The difference in total rebounding percentages from JR to LNJ is 2%.

3. Slasher/draw defenders, means JR requires the ball.

I'm sure it sounds like I'm talking Lopez and touches like he's Shaq, obviously he's not. But he's not just a catch and shoot center for everyone else to create first either.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Randle is the type the stop and read, rather that continuously move and keep the ball moving like Nance.

This isn't just about assists.

The best lineup actually is Lopez and Kuzma in the frontline. We never got the chance to see that either. Kuzma has the passing chops, pick and slips, and the shooting. He doesn't stop to read, he continuously moves too.


So we have given up on defense? And it is about assists, they put points on the board. Kuzma and Lopez might average 8 rebounds per game, you are confident in giving the opponent that many opportunities?


Actually no. Kuzma on an island against wings/switches is shockingly much better than a lot of guys on the team. Who do you trust most to defend PnRs with lateral quickness?

And no, it isn't just about assists. Otherwise, we'd start Caruso and Lonzo next to each other. What kind of weird argument is that? You think passing is going to die with Kuzma on the floor? Especially next to Lopez?

The difference in ball movement w/Kuzma and LNJ vs Randle is pretty different. Kuzma is best at throwing/finding/reading crosscourt passes. LNJ actually understands what a short roll is. Randle is a 50/50 shot of bulldoze vs. finding the open man.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. My idea of LNJ starting is mostly based on 10-15mpg with JR and Kuzma dominating power frontline minutes anyway.


because no matter how many times we hear it or even claim it.....deep down inside, we have been indoctrinated to feel starting matters in sports.


It is a high school thing. In the NBA you don’t win games in the first 8 minutes, who plays the last 8 is what matters.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
1. Lopez doesn't rebound well but has a high box out rate, hence the Nets were amazing at team rebounding altogether.

2. The difference in total rebounding percentages from JR to LNJ is 2%.

3. Slasher/draw defenders, means JR requires the ball.

I'm sure it sounds like I'm talking Lopez and touches like he's Shaq, obviously he's not. But he's not just a catch and shoot center for everyone else to create first either.


I've brought that up on many occasions and it just gets ignored lol

Randle is a better rebounder than Nance no question but the difference is marginal.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

When Larry's out there, we're playing 4 on 5 offensively. Or 3 on 5 technically given our lineup.


This is no different from Javale McGee or Andrew Bogut playing C. GSW may have the shooters, but the point is, it takes 4 guys to create the spacing and it's "OK" to have a guy with zero gravity out there. It's not ideal, but it can work.

I definitely get the idea that LNJ may get rooted out of the line up because he's not really an offensive threat, BUT, his value lies on the defensive end and with the ball going to the top offensive options, period.

You mention finding off-ball cutters? That would be Lopez's job within the offense, not Nance. Nance is clearly better off-ball over Randle. You talk about operating in the post to draw in doubles and triples? Once again, that's Lopez's job, not Nance. Let Lopez be the apex of what you want to happen, not Julius Randle. It seems that people are focused on JR's offensive success as a hub at the offense, yet, in the couple of games that he started, admittedly next to LNJ, we didn't see these great passes. We actually saw even more bulldozing, except against starting wings that rotated early because they know his scoring mentality. Neither guy really established themselves as perimeter threats, even if JR is far improved behind the arc and especially from midrange. It's not like JR draws massive gravity to help Lopez. So, why on earth are we facilitating to Randle instead of the proven 20ppg veteran that can space the floor, establish position, and make a few passes?

JR doesn't guarantee the ball swings. Even last game, even when he's drawing And 1's, he still doesn't find Kuzma in the corners. What's the point of Lopez if he can't get the ball? Highlight JR in the paint? So, make JR the scorer over Lopez?

Like I said, best positions to succeed. JR and Nance were proven in their respective lineups. Put Randle next to Lopez and you've shot LNJ out of the lineup.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. My idea of LNJ starting is mostly based on 10-15mpg with JR and Kuzma dominating power frontline minutes anyway.


Well said. I can accept this rationale even if I believe that Randle earned the starting spot.
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