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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | MJST wrote: |
League's getting smaller. 4s will still muscle Kuzma around for the next 2-3 seasons.
I don't expect Kuzma to get much bigger. He's 220 pounds at age 22. I think at most you're hoping for is 230 at most in his prime.
Let's look at the average weight of 4s in the league
Kevin Love - 251 pounds
Karl Anthony Towns - 247 pounds
Anthony Davis - 254 pounds
LaMarcus Aldridge - 240 pounds
Kristaps Porzingis - 240 pounds (at 22)
Draymond Green - 230 pounds (coming down from a higher weight and retains his strength)
James Johnson - 245 pounds
Trevor Booker - 240 pounds
Amir Johnson - 240 pounds
Draymond Green, who is much stronger than Kuzma will likely ever be, is the only guy whose weight matches up to the heaviest you'd hope Kuzma would be, and Green was naturally bigger and came down to 230 getting himself in better shape. That and Kuzma would have to put on 10 pounds of muscle to even get to Green's weight.
So yeah, 220 pound Kuzma isn't gonna be able to handle the strength of those 4s. He's not an 18 year old kid at 220, he's 22 and at this point you don't expect him to make any grand leap and bounds on his frame. You don't expect him to just put on 10 pounds of muscle anytime soon. Maybe he could accomplish that after another 2-3 seasons. But frame wise and otherwise he looks like a 2. His size is closer to that of a Paul George or a Harrison Barnes. Harrison Barnes currently even weighs more than him and Paul George weighs the same as him.
Again, Kuzma looks like a 3 at the NBA level and that looks like the best place to utilize him. The league may be getting stronger, but we're not about to see 220 pound Power Forwards as the norm anytime soon and for good reason. Kuzma's a 3. |
those in no objective way are "average" sized NBA 4's  Most of the guys you listed play a substantial amount of their time as 5's. Kuzma needs to get a little stronger to play a traditional 4 in the NBA, but his body and size is a prototypical NBA 4. His natural long term position is @ the 4 in my opinion. |
yep. If he plays as well in the regular season as he did in preseason, he will take the starting 4 spot from Nance sooner rather than later. I actually think starting Nance is a preliminary move to open the spot up for Kuzma later in the season. Benching Randle for Kuzma in the middle of the season would be messier than benching him for Nance now.
As much as we've discussed who would fit best next to Lopez, the more important question going forward will be who fits best with Lonzo. Kuzma at the 4 is best case scenario for Lonzo. It spreads the floor and gives him a great target in transition.
Lonzo
KCP
Ingram
Kuzma
Lopez
If Lonzo and Ingram can knock down open threes, that's 5 three point threats. Kuzma's spacing in the half court would hive Lopez more room to operate as well. This may be the starting lineup sooner than we think if Kuzma continues to impress. |
24% from 3 is impressive? Granted it’s better than Randle’s 20% and Nance’s 0%. But hardly impressive.
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dao
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| RCS926 wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | | Julius is best suited as a 6th man role... no other bench big can do the things he can. As long as he plays the right way, I see no reason why he is not closing games. |
Closing out games might have to be JR's consolation prize. |
he will also play more minutes than Nance. He will still probably get close to 30 mpg. A motivated Randle playing against second string centers could be very, very good. Caruso/Clarkson/Kuzma/Deng/Randle could be a very nice second unit. |
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dao
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | dao wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | MJST wrote: |
League's getting smaller. 4s will still muscle Kuzma around for the next 2-3 seasons.
I don't expect Kuzma to get much bigger. He's 220 pounds at age 22. I think at most you're hoping for is 230 at most in his prime.
Let's look at the average weight of 4s in the league
Kevin Love - 251 pounds
Karl Anthony Towns - 247 pounds
Anthony Davis - 254 pounds
LaMarcus Aldridge - 240 pounds
Kristaps Porzingis - 240 pounds (at 22)
Draymond Green - 230 pounds (coming down from a higher weight and retains his strength)
James Johnson - 245 pounds
Trevor Booker - 240 pounds
Amir Johnson - 240 pounds
Draymond Green, who is much stronger than Kuzma will likely ever be, is the only guy whose weight matches up to the heaviest you'd hope Kuzma would be, and Green was naturally bigger and came down to 230 getting himself in better shape. That and Kuzma would have to put on 10 pounds of muscle to even get to Green's weight.
So yeah, 220 pound Kuzma isn't gonna be able to handle the strength of those 4s. He's not an 18 year old kid at 220, he's 22 and at this point you don't expect him to make any grand leap and bounds on his frame. You don't expect him to just put on 10 pounds of muscle anytime soon. Maybe he could accomplish that after another 2-3 seasons. But frame wise and otherwise he looks like a 2. His size is closer to that of a Paul George or a Harrison Barnes. Harrison Barnes currently even weighs more than him and Paul George weighs the same as him.
Again, Kuzma looks like a 3 at the NBA level and that looks like the best place to utilize him. The league may be getting stronger, but we're not about to see 220 pound Power Forwards as the norm anytime soon and for good reason. Kuzma's a 3. |
those in no objective way are "average" sized NBA 4's Most of the guys you listed play a substantial amount of their time as 5's. Kuzma needs to get a little stronger to play a traditional 4 in the NBA, but his body and size is a prototypical NBA 4. His natural long term position is @ the 4 in my opinion. |
yep. If he plays as well in the regular season as he did in preseason, he will take the starting 4 spot from Nance sooner rather than later. I actually think starting Nance is a preliminary move to open the spot up for Kuzma later in the season. Benching Randle for Kuzma in the middle of the season would be messier than benching him for Nance now.
As much as we've discussed who would fit best next to Lopez, the more important question going forward will be who fits best with Lonzo. Kuzma at the 4 is best case scenario for Lonzo. It spreads the floor and gives him a great target in transition.
Lonzo
KCP
Ingram
Kuzma
Lopez
If Lonzo and Ingram can knock down open threes, that's 5 three point threats. Kuzma's spacing in the half court would hive Lopez more room to operate as well. This may be the starting lineup sooner than we think if Kuzma continues to impress. |
24% from 3 is impressive? Granted it’s better than Randle’s 20% and Nance’s 0%. But hardly impressive. |
His preseason was very impressive. He was the our impressive player in the preseason. If he looks this good in the regular season he will be starting soon.
Last edited by dao on Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | RCS926 wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | | Julius is best suited as a 6th man role... no other bench big can do the things he can. As long as he plays the right way, I see no reason why he is not closing games. |
Closing out games might have to be JR's consolation prize. |
he will also play more minutes than Nance. He will still probably get close to 30 mpg. A motivated Randle playing against second string centers could be very, very good. Caruso/Clarkson/Kuzma/Deng/Randle could be a very nice second unit. |
It's not even a permanent decision.
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| RCS926 wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | He's definitely salty about not starting. |
I don't blame him either considering how hard he worked over the summer. Couple that with the fact that he made a far greater impact on both ends of the floor than Jr. |
he worked hard. He pretty much put up the numbers he put up last year in 8 less minutes per game. He gave consistent effort on both ends, made strides defensively, made more communication and outplayed everyone during the pre-season but Kuzma(offensively). But lead us in rebounds, steals, and blocks.
I'd be salty too if the coach that keeps talking about "you gotta earn it" keeps giving chances to people I'm outplaying.
"Imaginary Brass Rings" are not the kind of reputation you want as a coach.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | dao wrote: | | RCS926 wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | | Julius is best suited as a 6th man role... no other bench big can do the things he can. As long as he plays the right way, I see no reason why he is not closing games. |
Closing out games might have to be JR's consolation prize. |
he will also play more minutes than Nance. He will still probably get close to 30 mpg. A motivated Randle playing against second string centers could be very, very good. Caruso/Clarkson/Kuzma/Deng/Randle could be a very nice second unit. |
It's not even a permanent decision. |
Agree
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah sure Julius put in the work but did he go to Disneyland with Luke this summer?
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Ziggy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Working hard and improving doesn't mean hes entitled to start. Especially when he wasn't really a starting caliber player to begin with. |
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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they can keep pretending the situation doesn't exist but if Deng is also going to play some PF and Bogut is going to play some minutes... "somebody" is going to get their minutes reduced.
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Ziggy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| watchME wrote: | Mike you sir know basketball. “Randle stops thinks and reacts” TOTALLY agree. He stops the ball everytime he touches it and it messes up the offense. The offense is your only tool to putting the ball in the bazket when you don’t have great individual players.
I agree with you he should be playing Center next to a bunch of shootsrs and let him work from the elbow. |
Agreed. Like I've said before, everytime Randle catches the ball I can practically see the wheels in his head turning as he figures out what to do with it.
And physically Randle moves more like a football player. He uses his bigger muscles to his advantage but seems to lack the fine motor skills that make NBA level basketball players so fluid. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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^It's frustrating really. He's arguably been the best player for the team (I think he has) and yet, the 3-point shooting isn't there yet, and neither is the decisiveness. To me, this is why he has looked so good against backup Cs that don't have the footspeed to compensate.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | He's definitely salty about not starting. |
Not a great sign IMO. Attitude wise, you'd hope 1) He'd buy in and 2) Who cares who starts? He should be mad if he's not closing.
I think him coming off the bench will work for him. I think the idea is to get Lopez the ball with the starters, so Randle will have more opportunities with his minutes being staggered from Lopez.
Really, though, I'd hope he'd have a better attitude than to be upset about not starting. Play well in your minutes and everything will be ok. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ziggy wrote: | | Working hard and improving doesn't mean hes entitled to start. Especially when he wasn't really a starting caliber player to begin with. |
Being the best at his position doesn’t mean he will start. Starting because you are offensively inept enough not to get in Lopez’s way doesn’t make sense.
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ziggy wrote: | | Working hard and improving doesn't mean hes entitled to start. |
1) Being the best at his position
2) Improving defensively to the praise of the coaching staff
3) Having the better stamina of any other counterpart at your position
4) Doing so well you averaged what you did last season in 8 minutes less.
5) Having a game that not only helps the starting lineups next to Lopez, but also taking advantage of him playing the perimeter
6) Leading the team in rebounds, steals, and blocks during the pre-season.
How about that.
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defense
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | they can keep pretending the situation doesn't exist but if Deng is also going to play some PF and Bogut is going to play some minutes... "somebody" is going to get their minutes reduced.
Serena Winters
@SerenaWinters
If Andrew Bogut is available to play in Thursday's opener, Luke Walton expects to find minutes for him in the rotation. |
Speculating but I think Walton goes
Bogut/Lopez at center
Randle/Nance/Kuzma at pf
Deng/Ingram/Kuzma at sf |
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | they can keep pretending the situation doesn't exist but if Deng is also going to play some PF and Bogut is going to play some minutes... "somebody" is going to get their minutes reduced.
Serena Winters
@SerenaWinters
If Andrew Bogut is available to play in Thursday's opener, Luke Walton expects to find minutes for him in the rotation. |
Speculating but I think Walton goes
Bogut/Lopez at center
Randle/Nance/Kuzma at pf
Deng/Ingram/Kuzma at sf |
Luke is definitely a wild card here but I'd suspect? he plays all 3, Lopez starts, Zu comes in with the 2nd unit and instead of Julius eventually moving up to C for smallball, Bogut would now come in for short shifts, maybe as low as 6 minutes/half. If Julius is supposed to make up his minutes by playing C while Nance, Kuz and Deng are also getting time at PF, something's gotta give. All we heard after last season was that Deng thinks he is more effective at PF and wants to play that spot. Pre-season didn't give us much to go on so it's a wait and see for it sounds like, everybody, including the players. I'd assume Lopez is going to play a decent amount of minutes unlike pre-season as well. |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | He's definitely salty about not starting. |
Not a great sign IMO. Attitude wise, you'd hope 1) He'd buy in and 2) Who cares who starts? He should be mad if he's not closing.
I think him coming off the bench will work for him. I think the idea is to get Lopez the ball with the starters, so Randle will have more opportunities with his minutes being staggered from Lopez.
Really, though, I'd hope he'd have a better attitude than to be upset about not starting. Play well in your minutes and everything will be ok. |
He's always had an alpha dog attitude compared to role players like Nance. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not.
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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If I was Randle, I'd be upset too. Salty or upset does not mean pouting or putting in substandard effort. I have no doubt Randle will go all out. However, he deserves to start and one can't blame him for not liking the fact he isn't going to.
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | 1. Lopez doesn't rebound well but has a high box out rate, hence the Nets were amazing at team rebounding altogether.
2. The difference in total rebounding percentages from JR to LNJ is 2%.
3. Slasher/draw defenders, means JR requires the ball.
I'm sure it sounds like I'm talking Lopez and touches like he's Shaq, obviously he's not. But he's not just a catch and shoot center for everyone else to create first either. |
I've brought that up on many occasions and it just gets ignored lol
Randle is a better rebounder than Nance no question but the difference is marginal. |
Well 2% is actually a fairly large difference (it just doesn't sound like a lot). But more than that, people underestimate how much Randle's rebounding tailed off from his first year. First year was probably an outlier since he slacked off at every part of the game to gobble up rebounds. |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | If I was Randle, I'd be upset too. Salty or upset does not mean pouting or putting in substandard effort. I have no doubt Randle will go all out. However, he deserves to start and one can't blame him for not liking the fact he isn't going to. |
Why do you feel he 'deserves' to start? Because he's a better player than Nance in a vacuum? It's a team game. Harrison Barnes wasn't a better player than Andre Igoudala. Danny Green wasn't a better player than Manu. Bynum wasn't a better player than Odom. Those are just easy cases to remember.
I'm happy he isn't satisfied. He has the tools to be an All-Star. He just has bench player skill level in several important areas. He's played two seasons and shadowed one season. Had lots of minutes in that time. Now it's on him for force his way into the starting lineup by playing his way there.
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al242
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| if we don’t win 30 games, I expect Luke to get canned and I’m going to be happy as hell about it.. this guy has proven to be as useful of a nba coach as he was as an Nba player |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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My reasons for starting Randle:
1. He's the best PF we have (Kuzma will have his ups and downs as a rookie).
2. He fits better with Zo and Lopez than Nance - going by preseason numbers, Randle has been a better defender, slasher, finisher, shooter, socrer and transition player. In fact, by the preseason, there isn't a thing Nance did better than Randle. Thus, the only grounds to say Nance is a better fit is that, unlike Randle, he's more invisible on the Court so won't get in Lopez's way. That doesn't make Nance a better fit, that makes him a potential liability.
3. We need to get off to good starts whereas our starting lineup has had problems last year - that means playing our best players.
4. Starting Randle makes it easier to give him large minutes while managing his minutes so that he isn't exhausted by the time the 4th quarter rolls around.
5. We need to make a decision on Randle this summer, and part of that decision hinges on whether he can be a long term starter and how he can fit consistently playing with high level players (such as Lopez, for now, but guys like Lebron/George in the future).
6. We need to develop Randle and see if he can adjust/evolve his game to fit any role he is given rather than stagnating and requiring that a team fits around him.
7. Even if Randle is less of a fit with Lopez and Zo (which I disagree with), we aren't a championship team (or close to it), so fit isn't really a priority yet (such as it would be for a contending team) and especially isn't a priority for an up and coming team like ours over factors #5 and #6 above.
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Btw, Luke said today that he still hasn't decided on a lineup. Even when asked if Nance would start if Randle was unavailable on Thursday, he still only said "possibly." I'm beginning to wonder if Nance starting was more about trying to get him going than any real lineup projection. Complicating the issue more is that Luke apparently wants to get Bogut minutes if he's healthy enough to play, which minimizes the minutes Randle will be able to play at center, creating even more of a glut at the PF spot.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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When we signed Bogut he said there will be games where he won’t play, I think he knows he will be a part time player. I wouldn’t count on him getting consistent minutes. Some of us have speculated exactly what you mentioned LS, that Nance was starting to get him going. I am not convinced it worked.
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | My reasons for starting Randle:
1. He's the best PF we have (Kuzma will have his ups and downs as a rookie).
2. He fits better with Zo and Lopez than Nance - going by preseason numbers, Randle has been a better defender, slasher, finisher, shooter, socrer and transition player. In fact, by the preseason, there isn't a thing Nance did better than Randle. Thus, the only grounds to say Nance is a better fit is that, unlike Randle, he's more invisible on the Court so won't get in Lopez's way. That doesn't make Nance a better fit, that makes him a potential liability.
3. We need to get off to good starts whereas our starting lineup has had problems last year - that means playing our best players.
4. Starting Randle makes it easier to give him large minutes while managing his minutes so that he isn't exhausted by the time the 4th quarter rolls around.
5. We need to make a decision on Randle this summer, and part of that decision hinges on whether he can be a long term starter and how he can fit consistently playing with high level players (such as Lopez, for now, but guys like Lebron/George in the future).
6. We need to develop Randle and see if he can adjust/evolve his game to fit any role he is given rather than stagnating and requiring that a team fits around him.
7. Even if Randle is less of a fit with Lopez and Zo (which I disagree with), we aren't a championship team (or close to it), so fit isn't really a priority yet (such as it would be for a contending team) and especially isn't a priority for an up and coming team like ours over factors #5 and #6 above.
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Btw, Luke said today that he still hasn't decided on a lineup. Even when asked if Nance would start if Randle was unavailable on Thursday, he still only said "possibly." I'm beginning to wonder if Nance starting was more about trying to get him going than any real lineup projection. Complicating the issue more is that Luke apparently wants to get Bogut minutes if he's healthy enough to play, which minimizes the minutes Randle will be able to play at center, creating even more of a glut at the PF spot. |
Probably was. But if it was just to get Nance going he needs to come off the "it's still unsure." and be honest and go "It was more to get Larry going, cause know he was a better player than he was showing, and we expect him to be a better player this season."
There's nothing wrong with saying that and confirming Julius to start because he earned it.
It doesn't build a good locker room if you chant all off-season about "Well those who work hard and earn it." when you have the mountain of evidence of all Julius did and the evidence right in front of you at how he outplayed Nance in every single way but you're still going "Well...it's not set in stone." Just give the start to Julius and say he earned it.
The mindgames crap isn't necessary when Jules put in the work he did.
Nance got rewarded for playing horribly and not having the same energy level because Luke "believes he'll play better." Well 'I believe you'll play better' is irrelevant when he gets thoroughly outplayed by a guy who worked harder and is playing better than him. Not if you want to build a 'reward for hard work and performance' atmosphere. Randle's earned the start. Not giving it to him at this point would be hypocritical of everything Luke's preached from that perspective. Once more, you don't want to be the "imaginary brass ring" reputation among the locker room.
It's also very apparent that Luke didn't communicate that message to Julius about 'getting Larry going' either. Otherwise Julius wouldn't be pissed about it. Communication is pretty darn important. That was supposed to be something Luke was good at 
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cmonkee
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: |
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More signals that Randle will start the season off the bench |
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