GOODBYE JULIUS RANDLE (Lakers Renounce Randle at his request, Who Then Signs W/ NOR for 2 years (1+1), $18m)
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
trablos wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Decent stat line but was actually a non-factor.

Unfortunately this seems like a summation of his young career.


Lakers need to do him a favor and trade him to his hometown, as you watched him play on Sunday... you can see how much effort he would bring playing for the Mavericks and Dallas... Cuban is crazy enough to take a chance on him.


All Cuban has to do is offer a contract, we would probably get destroyed if we try trading with him.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject:

The level of hate on a 9/8/1/1/1 performance in just 22 minutes with just 1 turnover is both predictable and befuddling.

Yeah he was 2-7 shooting, but two of those were three pointers and one was a half court heave to end a quarter. He was 5-5 at the line. He didn't get back into the game because the Lakers were making a run in the fourth. That squad (minus Payton) had saw the deficit grow from 11 to 20 before they made that run. If Randle gets back in the game he almost certainly has another double double. He certainly wasn't the issue tonight. They often ran the offense through him and he made some nice passes out of it, though only got one assist out of it.

The problem tonight was Ball and Ingram being out. The offense never really flowed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Agreed - Randle wasn't the problem today. He produced while he was out there.

But again, went through 2 very long stretches without seeing the floor. After he was taken out in the 3rd, did he even see the floor again?

This game got away from the Lakers when Brook and himself were taken out of the game. Went from around 10 to 20 in a blink of an eye.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:33 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
trablos wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Decent stat line but was actually a non-factor.

Unfortunately this seems like a summation of his young career.


Tanking would be a good summation of his career. We have been actively trying to lose the entire time. And some of you complaining were all for it. You donít deserve the right to complain.



Tanking doesn't seem to have hurt the development or mental fortitude of Embiid, Simmons, Covington or Holmes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
The level of hate on a 9/8/1/1/1 performance in just 22 minutes with just 1 turnover is both predictable and befuddling.

Yeah he was 2-7 shooting, but two of those were three pointers and one was a half court heave to end a quarter. He was 5-5 at the line. He didn't get back into the game because the Lakers were making a run in the fourth. That squad (minus Payton) had saw the deficit grow from 11 to 20 before they made that run. If Randle gets back in the game he almost certainly has another double double. He certainly wasn't the issue tonight. They often ran the offense through him and he made some nice passes out of it, though only got one assist out of it.

The problem tonight was Ball and Ingram being out. The offense never really flowed.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
The level of hate on a 9/8/1/1/1 performance in just 22 minutes with just 1 turnover is both predictable and befuddling.

Yeah he was 2-7 shooting, but two of those were three pointers and one was a half court heave to end a quarter. He was 5-5 at the line. He didn't get back into the game because the Lakers were making a run in the fourth. That squad (minus Payton) had saw the deficit grow from 11 to 20 before they made that run. If Randle gets back in the game he almost certainly has another double double. He certainly wasn't the issue tonight. They often ran the offense through him and he made some nice passes out of it, though only got one assist out of it.

The problem tonight was Ball and Ingram being out. The offense never really flowed.


He only made two baskets and one of them was a putback on his own shot that was like 5 feet off and the ball fortunately bounced right back to him under the basket off a defender.

But yeah, his terrible shooting and no hustle (go back and watch him on D and in transition) wasnít part of the problem lol. SMH, dude is a bum.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject:

I think he knows his time with us is ticking down, doesn't look like he's giving 100%. I'm sure there's another gear Randle can go to, especially on the defensive end. I'm worried that there would actually be an offer he can't refuse (prob from Dallas) that he would sign and we won't match cause we'll be waiting from the star FAs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
The level of hate on a 9/8/1/1/1 performance in just 22 minutes with just 1 turnover is both predictable and befuddling.

Yeah he was 2-7 shooting, but two of those were three pointers and one was a half court heave to end a quarter. He was 5-5 at the line. He didn't get back into the game because the Lakers were making a run in the fourth. That squad (minus Payton) had saw the deficit grow from 11 to 20 before they made that run. If Randle gets back in the game he almost certainly has another double double. He certainly wasn't the issue tonight. They often ran the offense through him and he made some nice passes out of it, though only got one assist out of it.

The problem tonight was Ball and Ingram being out. The offense never really flowed.

It's not just 1 game, and it's not that I hate his game in general. I love the defense, speed and rebounding he brings, when he brings it, and I cringe at the over dribbling, unforced TO's and bad decision making that's been consistent throughout his 3 years.

We all knew last summer that the decision to keep him was going to be based on if he had a breakout season or not, but unfortunately for Randle, I think Kuzma bursting onto the scene just made him that much more expendable, and Larry is the perfect backup 4.

So if I'm weighing the pros and cons and looking at how we move forward, I think we are better off clearing up our logjam at PF and getting the same production out of Kuz/Nance then paying 15-18 million for a possible backup PF/C. It's too bad because I really like Julius and think he's a mature young man with his head on strait, it's just the circumstances that he and the Lakers find themselves in.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
I think he knows his time with us is ticking down, doesn't look like he's giving 100%. I'm sure there's another gear Randle can go to, especially on the defensive end. I'm worried that there would actually be an offer he can't refuse (prob from Dallas) that he would sign and we won't match cause we'll be waiting from the star FAs


Should they match if they know he isn't going to be happy having to stay?

Is keeping an asset worth the possible headache of having a player on the roster that wants out?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject:

We are really going to regret not trading this guy. I knew it would play out like this. There was a time we could've at least gotten a high 2nd rounder.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:
governator wrote:
I think he knows his time with us is ticking down, doesn't look like he's giving 100%. I'm sure there's another gear Randle can go to, especially on the defensive end. I'm worried that there would actually be an offer he can't refuse (prob from Dallas) that he would sign and we won't match cause we'll be waiting from the star FAs


Should they match if they know he isn't going to be happy having to stay?

Is keeping an asset worth the possible headache of having a player on the roster that wants out?

If we match then everybody (including Julius) knows we want him (since it pretty much eliminates getting the 2nd max FA) unlike now which he's in limbo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:41 am    Post subject:

Randle and Clarkson aren't worth losing sleep over. Sucks after going through lousy years to draft a guy, invest years in him then lose him, but you can't invest valuable money in these guys.

Randle is a grinder, nothing more. Even the other day when he had a nice stat line vs Dallas, he turned the ball over 6-7 times and made so many dumb plays. Frustrating brand of basketball. In 4 years he has done zero to improve his shooting either. When he handles the ball I expect him to make the wrong play.

Clarkson is just a ball pounder, streaky player who frankly can be replaced easily as a backup guard. Terrible facilitator, too. If you can shed his 12 million dollar salary, you do it without thinking twice.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
trablos wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Decent stat line but was actually a non-factor.

Unfortunately this seems like a summation of his young career.


Tanking would be a good summation of his career. We have been actively trying to lose the entire time. And some of you complaining were all for it. You donít deserve the right to complain.



Tanking doesn't seem to have hurt the development or mental fortitude of Embiid, Simmons, Covington or Holmes.


Embiid and Simmons didnít play. And it did hurt Embiidís mental state, he had to stay away from the team to maintain. So not really.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
The level of hate on a 9/8/1/1/1 performance in just 22 minutes with just 1 turnover is both predictable and befuddling.

Yeah he was 2-7 shooting, but two of those were three pointers and one was a half court heave to end a quarter. He was 5-5 at the line. He didn't get back into the game because the Lakers were making a run in the fourth. That squad (minus Payton) had saw the deficit grow from 11 to 20 before they made that run. If Randle gets back in the game he almost certainly has another double double. He certainly wasn't the issue tonight. They often ran the offense through him and he made some nice passes out of it, though only got one assist out of it.

The problem tonight was Ball and Ingram being out. The offense never really flowed.

It's not just 1 game, and it's not that I hate his game in general. I love the defense, speed and rebounding he brings, when he brings it, and I cringe at the over dribbling, unforced TO's and bad decision making that's been consistent throughout his 3 years.

We all knew last summer that the decision to keep him was going to be based on if he had a breakout season or not, but unfortunately for Randle, I think Kuzma bursting onto the scene just made him that much more expendable, and Larry is the perfect backup 4.

So if I'm weighing the pros and cons and looking at how we move forward, I think we are better off clearing up our logjam at PF and getting the same production out of Kuz/Nance then paying 15-18 million for a possible backup PF/C. It's too bad because I really like Julius and think he's a mature young man with his head on strait, it's just the circumstances that he and the Lakers find themselves in.


Right, the overdribbling and unforced errors by Randle are horrible but the overdribbling and unforced errors by Kuzma are bursting on the scene. Could you be any more biased? I hope we hang onto both, they compliment each other well. Kuzma can stretch the floor and Randle can cover for Kuzmaís defensive weaknesses.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject:

Randle is what he is. He isn't worth the money, but the Lakers will give him the qualifying offer, and bring him back if they can't sign any FA. No need to lose an asset unless you have better players to spend that money on. If Randle does leave, I think we will miss him the same way Minnesota misses Zach Lavine.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject:

Wildchild027 wrote:
Randle is what he is. He isn't worth the money, but the Lakers will give him the qualifying offer, and bring him back if they can't sign any FA. No need to lose an asset unless you have better players to spend that money on. If Randle does leave, I think we will miss him the same way Minnesota misses Zach Lavine.


So you plan on replacing him with one of the best two way players in the league?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Wildchild027 wrote:
Randle is what he is. He isn't worth the money, but the Lakers will give him the qualifying offer, and bring him back if they can't sign any FA. No need to lose an asset unless you have better players to spend that money on. If Randle does leave, I think we will miss him the same way Minnesota misses Zach Lavine.


So you plan on replacing him with one of the best two way players in the league?


PG would sure be nice, right?
But it's not even a Blondie vs PG type of thing. Since there is a possibility to get/keep both.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
trablos wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
The level of hate on a 9/8/1/1/1 performance in just 22 minutes with just 1 turnover is both predictable and befuddling.

Yeah he was 2-7 shooting, but two of those were three pointers and one was a half court heave to end a quarter. He was 5-5 at the line. He didn't get back into the game because the Lakers were making a run in the fourth. That squad (minus Payton) had saw the deficit grow from 11 to 20 before they made that run. If Randle gets back in the game he almost certainly has another double double. He certainly wasn't the issue tonight. They often ran the offense through him and he made some nice passes out of it, though only got one assist out of it.

The problem tonight was Ball and Ingram being out. The offense never really flowed.

It's not just 1 game, and it's not that I hate his game in general. I love the defense, speed and rebounding he brings, when he brings it, and I cringe at the over dribbling, unforced TO's and bad decision making that's been consistent throughout his 3 years.

We all knew last summer that the decision to keep him was going to be based on if he had a breakout season or not, but unfortunately for Randle, I think Kuzma bursting onto the scene just made him that much more expendable, and Larry is the perfect backup 4.

So if I'm weighing the pros and cons and looking at how we move forward, I think we are better off clearing up our logjam at PF and getting the same production out of Kuz/Nance then paying 15-18 million for a possible backup PF/C. It's too bad because I really like Julius and think he's a mature young man with his head on strait, it's just the circumstances that he and the Lakers find themselves in.


Right, the overdribbling and unforced errors by Randle are horrible but the overdribbling and unforced errors by Kuzma are bursting on the scene. Could you be any more biased? I hope we hang onto both, they compliment each other well. Kuzma can stretch the floor and Randle can cover for Kuzmaís defensive weaknesses.


There is a huge difference between Kuzma and Randle in my opinion and there is a reason why people are bullish on Kuz and tired of Randle.

First off Kuz has shown more offense in his rookie year than Randle has ever. Post moves, 3 point shooting, mid range game, the kid has it all. Randle still has trouble with distance shooting and has very few post moves that don't involve running over people and getting an offensive foul.

Kuzma has an above average Bball IQ and since some early struggles has been dishing the ball of really well over the past month. Even his most ardent supporters have to admit that Randle has a below average Bbal IQ that leads to a lot of unforced turnovers.

Randle was terrible on defense for his first two seasons, often being disinterested in playing on that end of the floor. This season he improved a great deal on D, but has been backsliding since he has gotten more responsibility and minutes. At this point I'd say that Randle is a better overall defender, but Kuz is just a rook and will continue to improve on that end after a slow start.

The common thread as to why people are high on Kuz and down on JR is the fact that Randle has been around for a long time with minimal improvement in his overall game. In addition, he has been frumpy and does not always put forth 100% effort.

Kuz always plays hard and is well ahead of JR in terms of skill level and Bball IQ. So right now Randle is marginally better defender, when he feels like it, and worse at everything else.

Maybe the trade rumors have gotten to JR and that is why his D has fallen off. But that's on him. If he wants a big contract he should play like it all the time.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject:

Right, all that ďdefense wins championshipsĒ talk is just talk. People migrate to shiny offense instead. Plus the ďshiny new toyĒ angle. Iíve been around here long enough to know that todayís rookies will be tomorrowís has beens. It has happened with Randle, Clarkson, DLO and we are starting to see it with Ingram.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject:

I value D a lot. Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.

Randle has given us a half a season of good D and he is back sliding now.

Besides, if you value D and Bball smarts, Nance is the one you want to hang onto over Randle. Nance never pouts and always gives it 100% when he is on the floor.

Don't lump me in with any sort of Ball, BI, Nance, Hart haters. I love all of those guys. I just don't care too much for our resident lug heads, JC and JR.

And If they remain on the team and play consistently hard on both ends of the floor I will happily root for JR and JC.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.


That's a bit of a leap. He may very well improve his D to be better than Randle's, and I like the signs from Kuzma recently. But he spent three years in college, to Randle's one. He's less than eight months younger than Randle.

They are completely different players. Randle is a bruiser who can create offense a bit better than Kuzma at the moment, where Kuzma is a much better off ball player who can drain threes and has a nice inside out game. Randle's body will always make him better able to battle in the post, and capable of delivering harder screens. He'll likely never be the shooter than Kuzma already is though. Randle is a 4/5 where Kuzma is a 3/4 (mostly 4). They can certainly play together. The bench that was terrorizing teams in the early season was Kuzma/Randle.

It's also quite debatable to say that Randle will never be the offensive player that Kuzma will be. The Lakers are actually better offensively when Randle is on the court.

Here's an actual comparison of the two with the areas where they are better than the counterpart bolded.

Kuzma:
ORating (On Court): 101.9
ORating (Off Court): 99.8
ORating Differential: +2.1
DRating (On Court): 105.6
DRating (Off Court): 103.1
DRating Differential (Lower is Better): +2.5
Net Rating: -0.5
Points: 16.8
FG%: 46%
3P%: 37.5%
FT%: 73.8%
Rebounds: 6.4
Assists: 1.9
Steals: 0.6
Blocks: 0.4
Turnovers: 1.9
Minutes: 31.4
Points/36: 19.2
Rebounds/36: 7.3
Assists/36:2.2
Steals/36: 0.7
Blocks/36: 0.5
Turnovers/36: 2.2

Randle:
ORating (On Court): 102.9
ORating (Off Court): 99.6
ORating Differential: +3.3
DRating (On Court): 104.8
DRating (Off Court): 104.5
DRating Differential (Lower is Better): +0.3
Net Rating: +2.9

Points: 13.2
FG%: 54.3%
3P%: 25%
FT%: 68.6%
Rebounds: 7.2
Assists: 2
Steals: 0.5
Blocks: 0.7
Turnovers: 2.4
Minutes: 23 minutes
Points/36: 20.7
Rebounds/36: 11.2
Assists/36: 3.1

Steals/36: 0.7
Blocks/36: 1.1
Turnovers/36: 3.7

That is not to say that I don't love Kuzma's game. I do. But the main reason his numbers are better than Randle's is because he has more than 8 more minutes per game. I do think Kuzma is going to improve, he has the desire to do so and he's already very good for a rookie. But it's also fair to assume that Randle will continue improving as well. They are both good prospects and still years away from their primes. More importantly, they can play together and their games compliment one another. Randle needs a shooter opposite of him, and his rebounding and ability to defend down low cover two of the weaker areas of Kuzma's game.

Fortysixn2 wrote:
his terrible shooting and no hustle (go back and watch him on D and in transition) wasnít part of the problem lol.


He had 8 rebounds, a steal, and a block in 22 minutes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject:

What was the point of tanking if we arenít going to retain the fruits of our tanking labor unless the player becomes a unicorn?

I guess Iím still trying to understand who would be better than Randle for us?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
What was the point of tanking if we arenít going to retain the fruits of our tanking labor unless the player becomes a unicorn?

I guess Iím still trying to understand who would be better than Randle for us?


LeBron for one but LeBron is the only scenario where we can't keep Jules. Signing PG and DMC (or anyone less) would allow us to keep him... so really, that's the answer.

And if we end up with LeBron + PG + BI +Lonzo + Kuz + Nance + Hart, I'd say our franchise is in an amazing place immediately and for the decade following.

If we end up with PG + Boogie + BI + Lonzo + Kuzma + Randle + Nance + Hart, I'd again say we're in great great shape. Now and future.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
What was the point of tanking if we arenít going to retain the fruits of our tanking labor unless the player becomes a unicorn?

I guess Iím still trying to understand who would be better than Randle for us?

I'm not saying I advocate dumping Randle, but arguably the point of tanking is exactly what you said: to find a "unicorn" (or more generally, find stars). Tanking just gives you a ton of opportunities to do that -- it doesn't mean you are beholden to the "failed experiments" (so to speak).

What you never want to do is strap yourself to mediocre players on big contracts. Kent Bazemore, Allen Crabbe, etc. But of course, you need to factor individual growth. Oladipo is the prime example on that front (but to be fair he's also a bit of an outlier).

Whether you keep Randle should be dependent on whether he's worth eating up X% of the cap, where X depends on his contract. At $8M you probably do it. That's a steal. At $18M you probably don't do it, because that's exactly a Bazemore type of contract -- even if he's better than the likes of the players I mentioned above, he's probably still not worth 18% of the cap.

But maybe if you think he'll keep improving you do it. $18M might also make sense if you've gotten two maxes besides him and you keep him via Bird rights.

But yeah, holding onto players just because they are the fruits of tanking is just not the right approach.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.


That's a bit of a leap. He may very well improve his D to be better than Randle's, and I like the signs from Kuzma recently. But he spent three years in college, to Randle's one. He's less than eight months younger than Randle.

They are completely different players. Randle is a bruiser who can create offense a bit better than Kuzma at the moment, where Kuzma is a much better off ball player who can drain threes and has a nice inside out game. Randle's body will always make him better able to battle in the post, and capable of delivering harder screens. He'll likely never be the shooter than Kuzma already is though. Randle is a 4/5 where Kuzma is a 3/4 (mostly 4). They can certainly play together. The bench that was terrorizing teams in the early season was Kuzma/Randle.

It's also quite debatable to say that Randle will never be the offensive player that Kuzma will be. The Lakers are actually better offensively when Randle is on the court.

Here's an actual comparison of the two with the areas where they are better than the counterpart bolded.

Kuzma:
ORating (On Court): 101.9
ORating (Off Court): 99.8
ORating Differential: +2.1
DRating (On Court): 105.6
DRating (Off Court): 103.1
DRating Differential (Lower is Better): +2.5
Net Rating: -0.5
Points: 16.8
FG%: 46%
3P%: 37.5%
FT%: 73.8%
Rebounds: 6.4
Assists: 1.9
Steals: 0.6
Blocks: 0.4
Turnovers: 1.9
Minutes: 31.4
Points/36: 19.2
Rebounds/36: 7.3
Assists/36:2.2
Steals/36: 0.7
Blocks/36: 0.5
Turnovers/36: 2.2

Randle:
ORating (On Court): 102.9
ORating (Off Court): 99.6
ORating Differential: +3.3
DRating (On Court): 104.8
DRating (Off Court): 104.5
DRating Differential (Lower is Better): +0.3
Net Rating: +2.9

Points: 13.2
FG%: 54.3%
3P%: 25%
FT%: 68.6%
Rebounds: 7.2
Assists: 2
Steals: 0.5
Blocks: 0.7
Turnovers: 2.4
Minutes: 23 minutes
Points/36: 20.7
Rebounds/36: 11.2
Assists/36: 3.1

Steals/36: 0.7
Blocks/36: 1.1
Turnovers/36: 3.7

That is not to say that I don't love Kuzma's game. I do. But the main reason his numbers are better than Randle's is because he has more than 8 more minutes per game. I do think Kuzma is going to improve, he has the desire to do so and he's already very good for a rookie. But it's also fair to assume that Randle will continue improving as well. They are both good prospects and still years away from their primes. More importantly, they can play together and their games compliment one another. Randle needs a shooter opposite of him, and his rebounding and ability to defend down low cover two of the weaker areas of Kuzma's game.

Fortysixn2 wrote:
his terrible shooting and no hustle (go back and watch him on D and in transition) wasnít part of the problem lol.


He had 8 rebounds, a steal, and a block in 22 minutes.


THIS!
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