GOODBYE JULIUS RANDLE (Lakers Renounce Randle at his request, Who Then Signs W/ NOR for 2 years (1+1), $18m)
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Fortysixn2
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
tox wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
What was the point of tanking if we aren’t going to retain the fruits of our tanking labor unless the player becomes a unicorn?

I guess I’m still trying to understand who would be better than Randle for us?

I'm not saying I advocate dumping Randle, but arguably the point of tanking is exactly what you said: to find a "unicorn" (or more generally, find stars). Tanking just gives you a ton of opportunities to do that -- it doesn't mean you are beholden to the "failed experiments" (so to speak).

What you never want to do is strap yourself to mediocre players on big contracts. Kent Bazemore, Allen Crabbe, etc. But of course, you need to factor individual growth. Oladipo is the prime example on that front (but to be fair he's also a bit of an outlier).

Whether you keep Randle should be dependent on whether he's worth eating up X% of the cap, where X depends on his contract. At $8M you probably do it. That's a steal. At $18M you probably don't do it, because that's exactly a Bazemore type of contract -- even if he's better than the likes of the players I mentioned above, he's probably still not worth 18% of the cap.

But maybe if you think he'll keep improving you do it. $18M might also make sense if you've gotten two maxes besides him and you keep him via Bird rights.

But yeah, holding onto players just because they are the fruits of tanking is just not the right approach.


Ok. I wasn't suggesting that you hold on to every one of your draft picks indefinitely just because you tanked. What I'm suggesting is, and where I disagree with you on the goal of tanking for picks, is that sometimes you find a #2 option in the draft. Sometimes, it's a #3 option, or a #4 option. I mean, should GSW have dumped Klay for cap space since he is not a unicorn and that is the point of the draft? I don't think so.

Where I do agree with you, is that you have to consider the value in terms of their cap space hit. We just don't know that yet though for Randle and in spite of that, we're seeing a number of posts (and rumors) suggesting we trade Randle for cap space.

To me, there is a clear role for Randle on this team as a #3 or #4 option. So IMO, we should be looking to KEEP Randle, with the caveat that it depends on the cost of doing so.


I think the real issue is if he’s willing to accept an appropriate role and the money for that role. For a backup 4 or 5, he’s an average player...3 years 30 million playing 20 minutes a game and the occasional spot start is where he fits in the NBA. Thing is, Kuzma is the future and Nance is better than him IMO. So can he hang 20 minutes at center every game? Not against big centers. Is he willing to make $10m a year and be a role player? Doesn’t seem like it.

The thing with Randle, just like JC...they have been on a bad team their entire career and been spoiled with minutes and lack of real talent to compete with them on the roster. They both think they are NBA starters who should be playing at least 30 minutes a game. I think both of them are going to be in for a shock if they leave.

Nick Young is better than JC, he went to a talented team...playing 15 minutes a game and has 11 games this year where he played less than 10 minutes.

Kenneth Faried puts up around the same per/36 numbers as Julius...Julius Shoots the ball more and turns the ball over more and commits more fouls, faried blocks more shots, other than that very close. He is averaging 15 minutes a game and has been out of the rotation for a dozen games this year on a team that is .500. That’s about where Julius would be on a average team.

I think JC is overpayed and should just be moved for an expiring contract. With Julius, if he can accept his roll...15-20 minutes a game off the bench at 8-10 million a year, then that’s cool...if he thinks he’s better than that he will be in for a rude awakening when he finds himself on a roster with more talent.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/lakersoutsiders/status/953517270961029121
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I value D a lot. Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.

Randle has given us a half a season of good D and he is back sliding now.

Besides, if you value D and Bball smarts, Nance is the one you want to hang onto over Randle. Nance never pouts and always gives it 100% when he is on the floor.

Don't lump me in with any sort of Ball, BI, Nance, Hart haters. I love all of those guys. I just don't care too much for our resident lug heads, JC and JR.

And If they remain on the team and play consistently hard on both ends of the floor I will happily root for JR and JC.


Kuzma and Randle are the same age and at the same position in the NBA. Comparing a 19 yo Randle with a 22 yo Kuzma is lazy, disingenuous and ridiculous. I too want to see them both stay and have been a big supporter of them playing together. The numbers speak for themselves. All I have asked from Kuzma is more effort defensively even if it takes away offense. Randle has already learned that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
Cuban hates us and is going to try to stick it to us. He will offer JR low 20's. I hope the FO has a plan. The two worst things for us are to lose him for nothing and overpay him.


Mavs are reported to be one of the teams interested in Cousins. I could see them making Randle a backup plan.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
Cuban hates us and is going to try to stick it to us. He will offer JR low 20's. I hope the FO has a plan. The two worst things for us are to lose him for nothing and overpay him.


That's an overpay for Jules. Does he want to populate his team with overpaid guys like Barnes, Wes Matthews, and a 20m+/year Jules?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
Cuban hates us and is going to try to stick it to us. He will offer JR low 20's. I hope the FO has a plan. The two worst things for us are to lose him for nothing and overpay him.


I've thought the same thing.

Cuban once traded for Christian Laettner to keep him from coming to the Lakers in a deal. Mavs had little to no need for Laettner, weren't in championship contention but still made the move to spite LA and then coach Don Nelson bragged about it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Cuban hates us and is going to try to stick it to us. He will offer JR low 20's. I hope the FO has a plan. The two worst things for us are to lose him for nothing and overpay him.


That's an overpay for Jules. Does he want to populate his team with overpaid guys like Barnes, Wes Matthews, and a 20m+/year Jules?


That would be awesome. I love Jules, but if his time on the Lakers is best-remembered as inducing Cuban to cut off his nose just to spite his face...that's a #7 pick well-spent in my opinion. Plus it would give Jules and his family some financial security, which is always a good thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
tox wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
What was the point of tanking if we aren’t going to retain the fruits of our tanking labor unless the player becomes a unicorn?

I guess I’m still trying to understand who would be better than Randle for us?

I'm not saying I advocate dumping Randle, but arguably the point of tanking is exactly what you said: to find a "unicorn" (or more generally, find stars). Tanking just gives you a ton of opportunities to do that -- it doesn't mean you are beholden to the "failed experiments" (so to speak).

What you never want to do is strap yourself to mediocre players on big contracts. Kent Bazemore, Allen Crabbe, etc. But of course, you need to factor individual growth. Oladipo is the prime example on that front (but to be fair he's also a bit of an outlier).

Whether you keep Randle should be dependent on whether he's worth eating up X% of the cap, where X depends on his contract. At $8M you probably do it. That's a steal. At $18M you probably don't do it, because that's exactly a Bazemore type of contract -- even if he's better than the likes of the players I mentioned above, he's probably still not worth 18% of the cap.

But maybe if you think he'll keep improving you do it. $18M might also make sense if you've gotten two maxes besides him and you keep him via Bird rights.

But yeah, holding onto players just because they are the fruits of tanking is just not the right approach.


Ok. I wasn't suggesting that you hold on to every one of your draft picks indefinitely just because you tanked. What I'm suggesting is, and where I disagree with you on the goal of tanking for picks, is that sometimes you find a #2 option in the draft. Sometimes, it's a #3 option, or a #4 option. I mean, should GSW have dumped Klay for cap space since he is not a unicorn and that is the point of the draft? I don't think so.

Where I do agree with you, is that you have to consider the value in terms of their cap space hit. We just don't know that yet though for Randle and in spite of that, we're seeing a number of posts (and rumors) suggesting we trade Randle for cap space.

To me, there is a clear role for Randle on this team as a #3 or #4 option. So IMO, we should be looking to KEEP Randle, with the caveat that it depends on the cost of doing so.


I think the real issue is if he’s willing to accept an appropriate role and the money for that role. For a backup 4 or 5, he’s an average player...3 years 30 million playing 20 minutes a game and the occasional spot start is where he fits in the NBA. Thing is, Kuzma is the future and Nance is better than him IMO. So can he hang 20 minutes at center every game? Not against big centers. Is he willing to make $10m a year and be a role player? Doesn’t seem like it.

The thing with Randle, just like JC...they have been on a bad team their entire career and been spoiled with minutes and lack of real talent to compete with them on the roster. They both think they are NBA starters who should be playing at least 30 minutes a game. I think both of them are going to be in for a shock if they leave.

Nick Young is better than JC, he went to a talented team...playing 15 minutes a game and has 11 games this year where he played less than 10 minutes.

Kenneth Faried puts up around the same per/36 numbers as Julius...Julius Shoots the ball more and turns the ball over more and commits more fouls, faried blocks more shots, other than that very close. He is averaging 15 minutes a game and has been out of the rotation for a dozen games this year on a team that is .500. That’s about where Julius would be on a average team.

I think JC is overpayed and should just be moved for an expiring contract. With Julius, if he can accept his roll...15-20 minutes a game off the bench at 8-10 million a year, then that’s cool...if he thinks he’s better than that he will be in for a rude awakening when he finds himself on a roster with more talent.

Spot on post...can't really disagree with anything. It all boils down to what kind of value you place on his game and perceived potential.

But just to give Randle the benefit of the doubt, he's clearly not the offensive player Kuzma is, but we don't really need him to be. As long as he understands his role on the team and is willing to play within his capacity, and could be retained for a decent figure, I would be glad to keep him and add PG moving forward.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
https://twitter.com/lakersoutsiders/status/953517270961029121


Sounds like they are playing game of chicken with the Mavericks... those sort of things can put pressure on a team like Dallas to do a trade... we all know that isn’t gonna happen.. I’m pretty sure they are trying to make sure the Mavs add valuable assets in a Randle trade.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
tox wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
What was the point of tanking if we aren’t going to retain the fruits of our tanking labor unless the player becomes a unicorn?

I guess I’m still trying to understand who would be better than Randle for us?

I'm not saying I advocate dumping Randle, but arguably the point of tanking is exactly what you said: to find a "unicorn" (or more generally, find stars). Tanking just gives you a ton of opportunities to do that -- it doesn't mean you are beholden to the "failed experiments" (so to speak).

What you never want to do is strap yourself to mediocre players on big contracts. Kent Bazemore, Allen Crabbe, etc. But of course, you need to factor individual growth. Oladipo is the prime example on that front (but to be fair he's also a bit of an outlier).

Whether you keep Randle should be dependent on whether he's worth eating up X% of the cap, where X depends on his contract. At $8M you probably do it. That's a steal. At $18M you probably don't do it, because that's exactly a Bazemore type of contract -- even if he's better than the likes of the players I mentioned above, he's probably still not worth 18% of the cap.

But maybe if you think he'll keep improving you do it. $18M might also make sense if you've gotten two maxes besides him and you keep him via Bird rights.

But yeah, holding onto players just because they are the fruits of tanking is just not the right approach.


Ok. I wasn't suggesting that you hold on to every one of your draft picks indefinitely just because you tanked. What I'm suggesting is, and where I disagree with you on the goal of tanking for picks, is that sometimes you find a #2 option in the draft. Sometimes, it's a #3 option, or a #4 option. I mean, should GSW have dumped Klay for cap space since he is not a unicorn and that is the point of the draft? I don't think so.

Where I do agree with you, is that you have to consider the value in terms of their cap space hit. We just don't know that yet though for Randle and in spite of that, we're seeing a number of posts (and rumors) suggesting we trade Randle for cap space.

To me, there is a clear role for Randle on this team as a #3 or #4 option. So IMO, we should be looking to KEEP Randle, with the caveat that it depends on the cost of doing so.

I agree with you overall. A good NBA franchise avoids overpaying for talent. I think we both agree you shouldn't dump Randle for the sake of dumping him unless you get a good return... otherwise why? We can just renounce our rights to clear his cap hold.

My point was mostly what you said later, it depends on how much it costs to keep Randle.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I value D a lot. Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.

Randle has given us a half a season of good D and he is back sliding now.

Besides, if you value D and Bball smarts, Nance is the one you want to hang onto over Randle. Nance never pouts and always gives it 100% when he is on the floor.

Don't lump me in with any sort of Ball, BI, Nance, Hart haters. I love all of those guys. I just don't care too much for our resident lug heads, JC and JR.

And If they remain on the team and play consistently hard on both ends of the floor I will happily root for JR and JC.


Kuzma and Randle are the same age and at the same position in the NBA. Comparing a 19 yo Randle with a 22 yo Kuzma is lazy, disingenuous and ridiculous. I too want to see them both stay and have been a big supporter of them playing together. The numbers speak for themselves. All I have asked from Kuzma is more effort defensively even if it takes away offense. Randle has already learned that.


Randle played all of 17 minutes as a 19 year old in the NBA. So he came in as a 20 year old playing horrible defense after having a year to spend with the NBA club while he was rehabing. So who is being disingenuous here? And last time I checked Kuz is 22 currently and Randle is 23, they are not the same age.

Yes Kuz came in older, but he is still played better D as rookie than Randle did in his second NBA season and I still believe that Kuz will end up being a superior defender because he does not take plays off like Randle has been known to do.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject:

I doubt Kuz will ever be capable of defending all 5 positions like Julius can.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I value D a lot. Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.

Randle has given us a half a season of good D and he is back sliding now.

Besides, if you value D and Bball smarts, Nance is the one you want to hang onto over Randle. Nance never pouts and always gives it 100% when he is on the floor.

Don't lump me in with any sort of Ball, BI, Nance, Hart haters. I love all of those guys. I just don't care too much for our resident lug heads, JC and JR.

And If they remain on the team and play consistently hard on both ends of the floor I will happily root for JR and JC.


Kuzma and Randle are the same age and at the same position in the NBA. Comparing a 19 yo Randle with a 22 yo Kuzma is lazy, disingenuous and ridiculous. I too want to see them both stay and have been a big supporter of them playing together. The numbers speak for themselves. All I have asked from Kuzma is more effort defensively even if it takes away offense. Randle has already learned that.


Randle played all of 17 minutes as a 19 year old in the NBA. So he came in as a 20 year old playing horrible defense after having a year to spend with the NBA club while he was rehabing. So who is being disingenuous here? And last time I checked Kuz is 22 currently and Randle is 23, they are not the same age.

Yes Kuz came in older, but he is still played better D as rookie than Randle did in his second NBA season and I still believe that Kuz will end up being a superior defender because he does not take plays off like Randle has been known to do.


Yes he does, his inconsistent defensive effort is what Luke comments on. I know you cannot be unbiased, so continue to think what you want.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I doubt Kuz will ever be capable of defending all 5 positions like Julius can.


I doubt Julius is capable of defending all 5 positions. He has a difficult enough time defending the 4.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Randle was 21 his true rookie year , Kuz 22. Same difference
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I value D a lot. Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.

Randle has given us a half a season of good D and he is back sliding now.

Besides, if you value D and Bball smarts, Nance is the one you want to hang onto over Randle. Nance never pouts and always gives it 100% when he is on the floor.

Don't lump me in with any sort of Ball, BI, Nance, Hart haters. I love all of those guys. I just don't care too much for our resident lug heads, JC and JR.

And If they remain on the team and play consistently hard on both ends of the floor I will happily root for JR and JC.


Kuzma and Randle are the same age and at the same position in the NBA. Comparing a 19 yo Randle with a 22 yo Kuzma is lazy, disingenuous and ridiculous. I too want to see them both stay and have been a big supporter of them playing together. The numbers speak for themselves. All I have asked from Kuzma is more effort defensively even if it takes away offense. Randle has already learned that.


Randle played all of 17 minutes as a 19 year old in the NBA. So he came in as a 20 year old playing horrible defense after having a year to spend with the NBA club while he was rehabing. So who is being disingenuous here? And last time I checked Kuz is 22 currently and Randle is 23, they are not the same age.

Yes Kuz came in older, but he is still played better D as rookie than Randle did in his second NBA season and I still believe that Kuz will end up being a superior defender because he does not take plays off like Randle has been known to do.


Yes he does, his inconsistent defensive effort is what Luke comments on. I know you cannot be unbiased, so continue to think what you want.


Thank you VLF! You do the same and lets hope Kuz and Randle both continue to improve and get us back where we belong- the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject:

Keep.
Him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
https://twitter.com/lakersoutsiders/status/953517270961029121

couple this with the dallasbasketball.com story or even on its own: looks like the Lakers are fishing for better offers. no way they are going to commit to Ju with big fish out there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
https://twitter.com/lakersoutsiders/status/953517270961029121


Sounds like they are playing game of chicken with the Mavericks... those sort of things can put pressure on a team like Dallas to do a trade... we all know that isn’t gonna happen.. I’m pretty sure they are trying to make sure the Mavs add valuable assets in a Randle trade.


Lakers are also going ahead and getting in the "we will match so don't bother offering" stabs. If they don't trade him, they hope no one offers in free agency. Lakers would love to have him back on a cheap contract.

I still say the number where the Lakers don't match is $18 per, and I'm not sure anyone will offer that. But he's a lot closer to that kind of offer than he was a month ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I value D a lot. Kuzma is a better defender as a rookie than Jules was as a rookie. Therefore when Kuz has been in the league for 3 years I anticipate he will be a better defender than Randle at 3 years. The much better offense that Kuz gives you is icing on the cake.

Randle has given us a half a season of good D and he is back sliding now.

Besides, if you value D and Bball smarts, Nance is the one you want to hang onto over Randle. Nance never pouts and always gives it 100% when he is on the floor.

Don't lump me in with any sort of Ball, BI, Nance, Hart haters. I love all of those guys. I just don't care too much for our resident lug heads, JC and JR.

And If they remain on the team and play consistently hard on both ends of the floor I will happily root for JR and JC.


Kuzma and Randle are the same age and at the same position in the NBA. Comparing a 19 yo Randle with a 22 yo Kuzma is lazy, disingenuous and ridiculous. I too want to see them both stay and have been a big supporter of them playing together. The numbers speak for themselves. All I have asked from Kuzma is more effort defensively even if it takes away offense. Randle has already learned that.


Randle played all of 17 minutes as a 19 year old in the NBA. So he came in as a 20 year old playing horrible defense after having a year to spend with the NBA club while he was rehabing. So who is being disingenuous here? And last time I checked Kuz is 22 currently and Randle is 23, they are not the same age.

Yes Kuz came in older, but he is still played better D as rookie than Randle did in his second NBA season and I still believe that Kuz will end up being a superior defender because he does not take plays off like Randle has been known to do.


Yes he does, his inconsistent defensive effort is what Luke comments on. I know you cannot be unbiased, so continue to think what you want.


Thank you VLF! You do the same and lets hope Kuz and Randle both continue to improve and get us back where we belong- the playoffs.


I know that is what we would both love to see
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject:

I don't understand how he could only get 1 rebound.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
I don't understand how he could only get 1 rebound.


I missed the game. How did that happen?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject:

32 wrote:
I don't understand how he could only get 1 rebound.


He was fighting to keep Adams blocked out on posessions, and Adams still got a couple offensive rebounds. He destroyed the Lakers on the glass offensive glass tonight. It wasn't a lack of effort though, he was putting his energy into boxing out. Looked frustrated a couple of times when Adams still got a board over him.
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Inspector Gadget
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject:

He looked so engaged in the 1st half I thought he was gonna have a 30+ point game.... it looks like he didn’t have anything left after half time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject:

Adams absolutely destroyed us. Dude's a brute. He was arguably their MVP of the game. Without him the game is a lot different than it ended up being. Adams is the type of player that's difficult for almost any other C to deal with, and especially Randle. Add in it didn't seem like we did a good job of gang-rebounding (especially without Lonzo) and we got utterly decimated on the boards.

-----------

Contract wise, if things work out in a way that allows us to keep Randle I hope we manage to retain him for 14-15M a year. 18 a year would make me blink twice. He is in the Lamar Odom tier of player, IMO. Special talent and player that can be a real wildcard that is going to give a lot of teams fits, and sometimes going to frustrate fans.

I tend to think whether he's a starter or bench player is going to depend on a lot of other factors.

Definitely hope we find a way to keep him.
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