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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | DLO + INgram+Nance is our young core for the future
With possibly ZUbac |
Randle and Zub are def part of this core, and so is JC.
We need to make a quick move on Lou (highest asset) and Young (will likely opt out and want double his salary). |
Zubac still young, so I cant tell.
However, Randle isn't
INgram when he beefs up will eventually play the 4 where he actually has quickness advantage, unlike the perimeter where he has 0 quickness advantage.
Also, I think JC will get traded down the line. Maybe this summer or next tradeline, unless the FO stay inactive again |
Great, more fake news.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | I don't understand the obsession with small ball 4s. Ingram doesn't strike me as a 4 in any way besides his height. His skill set is more that of a guard than a forward or a wing even. Why do people want to play him at the 4? Especially when Randle has been one of our best guys. And we have Nance! |
Guard skill sets at PF is usually a major advantage in terms of spacing with 3pt. range and getting by defenders with dribble penetration.
Jokic isn't fast or athletic at all, but the fact that he can shoot means that even PFs and Cs alike have issues guarding him. Guard skills. |
Ok but Randle can handle the ball too and is WAY more of a fit physically at the 4. It seems to me that people like the idea of Ingram at the 4 but in reality it doesn't fit. |
How doesn't Ingram fit again? Players can compensate lack of strength with wingspan and standing reach.
If Ingram can handle, pass, and shoot, what is the issue with Ingram playing small ball PF? Fear of getting outpowered in the paint? At least he plays with some hoop IQ out there.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Even if you think Ingram is best fit the play PF, it doesn't make sense for the roster. Do you wanna trade Randle? Or worse, not resign him? |
Ingram is only playing spot minutes at PF. He's not stealing the starting job. I don't see how this is an issue.
I think you're thinking WAY too far ahead. Small ball lineups don't last all game.
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Vesper
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Ingram fits perfectly as our stretch four and eventually fulltime pf. He gives us length, hustle, defense and perimeter shooting.
I don't think you guys realize but Ingram's body can fill out like Dwight did. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: | Ingram fits perfectly as our stretch four and eventually fulltime pf. He gives us length, hustle, defense and perimeter shooting.
I don't think you guys realize but Ingram's body can fill out like Dwight did. |
Um what? Even at age 18, Dwight had those round sculpted shoulders.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1hybxj/dwight_howard_during_the_nba_summer_league_in_2004/
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Vesper
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: |
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But dwight came into the league as a skinny teenage kid that had a body that could fill out. Both DLO and Ingram can fill out their bodies more.
Ingram was like 6'2 as a freshman and kept growing 2 inches every year and even grew an inch at Duke. This kid body is perfect for the NBA like DUrant, Kevin Garnett, etc.
He has broad shoulders, long arms and ideally once he gets stronger, he could be a similar player to Ibaka with handling ability. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: |
But dwight came into the league as a skinny teenage kid that had a body that could fill out. Both DLO and Ingram can fill out their bodies more.
Ingram was like 6'2 as a freshman and kept growing 2 inches every year and even grew an inch at Duke. This kid body is perfect for the NBA like DUrant, Kevin Garnett, etc.
He has broad shoulders, long arms and ideally once he gets stronger, he could be a similar player to Ibaka with handling ability. |
I don't see it. Even KD has filled out, but just so many long limbs to put meat on. Plus, Dwight was a maniac in the weightroom. I don't see Ingram turning into that kind of muscle bound player, though I think in his prime he may hit 220.
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nash
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: | Ingram fits perfectly as our stretch four and eventually fulltime pf. He gives us length, hustle, defense and perimeter shooting.
I don't think you guys realize but Ingram's body can fill out like Dwight did. |
Maybe Anthony Davis |
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MJST
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: | Ingram fits perfectly as our stretch four and eventually fulltime pf. He gives us length, hustle, defense and perimeter shooting.
I don't think you guys realize but Ingram's body can fill out like Dwight did. |
Anyone wanna photoshop Ingram's head on Dwight's body?
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | Ingram fits perfectly as our stretch four and eventually fulltime pf. He gives us length, hustle, defense and perimeter shooting.
I don't think you guys realize but Ingram's body can fill out like Dwight did. |
Anyone wanna photoshop Ingram's head on Dwight's body?
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When watching the most recent game, my GF said "Ingram is just all arms and legs". I almost died.
That's what someone who doesn't watch bball thinks.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Even if you think Ingram is best fit the play PF, it doesn't make sense for the roster. Do you wanna trade Randle? Or worse, not resign him? |
Ingram is only playing spot minutes at PF. He's not stealing the starting job. I don't see how this is an issue.
I think you're thinking WAY too far ahead. Small ball lineups don't last all game. |
Maybe I am but looking at Randle, Nance and Zubac. I see much more time available at the 2 and 3 going forward. I also LOVE the idea of Ingram at the 2 or 3 with Dlo Randle Nance and Clarkson or a wing not currently on the roster from a defensive stand point. Tons of length, everybody can switch and guard multiple positions, and almost everybody can playmake. But maybe I'm looking too far into it. I just see guard skills from Ingram and think a 6'10 guard next to a 6'5 PG would give defenses huge matchup problems. |
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dao
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | Randle is still the young player that really puzzles me. I still have the impression that he can be either a huge asset or a huge headache going forward, I just can't decide which one.
He has some distinct and unmatched talents, but most of the time don't look like a player willing to do what is needed to build a winning program. |
Randle is #33 in the league in Real Plus Minus for PF's playing at least 20 mpg. He fills the stat sheet, and occasionally looks like an absolute stud, but when you look at the totality of his on court impact, he leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn't spread the floor offensively. His defensive effort and IQ on defensive rotations are terrible.
I still think Nance is a more impactful player than him. Nance btw is #19 in RPM for PF's with 20 mpg, and is #20 overall. Nance also has a significantly higher BPM, at +2.0 compared to 0.0 for Randle.
Biggest thing for me: Nance is the #14 PF in defensive RPM. Randle? #60. He's one of the worst defensive bigs in the NBA.
Randle has more upside, but man, will he ever put it all together  His low IQ and feel for the game make me wonder. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | nash wrote: | Randle is still the young player that really puzzles me. I still have the impression that he can be either a huge asset or a huge headache going forward, I just can't decide which one.
He has some distinct and unmatched talents, but most of the time don't look like a player willing to do what is needed to build a winning program. |
Randle is #33 in the league in Real Plus Minus for PF's playing at least 20 mpg. He fills the stat sheet, and occasionally looks like an absolute stud, but when you look at the totality of his on court impact, he leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn't spread the floor offensively. His defensive effort and IQ on defensive rotations are terrible.
I still think Nance is a more impactful player than him. Nance btw is #19 in RPM for PF's with 20 mpg, and is #20 overall. Nance also has a significantly higher BPM, at +2.0 compared to 0.0 for Randle.
Biggest thing for me: Nance is the #14 PF in defensive RPM. Randle? #60. He's one of the worst defensive bigs in the NBA.
Randle has more upside, but man, will he ever put it all together His low IQ and feel for the game make me wonder. |
We're not doing this whole Jules v. Nance debate again are we? Nance can't shoulder the heavier minutes and is doing just well in his role.
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Vesper
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Our centers will continue to look like crap if Randle keeps starting as the PF.
The high motor concept is a complete fallacy. I bet if Deng and Ingram played as the 2 forwards we be better off in the wins/loss column |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | nash wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | nash wrote: | Randle is still the young player that really puzzles me. I still have the impression that he can be either a huge asset or a huge headache going forward, I just can't decide which one.
He has some distinct and unmatched talents, but most of the time don't look like a player willing to do what is needed to build a winning program. |
It's both DLO and Jules, which comprise a big part of the heart/soul of our team. They seem to have consistency issues, but they're also in their 2nd year (3rd technically for Jules). When both are off this team sputters. |
I don't think Dlo would be a problem one day. I rearly enjoy his skillset and have doubts about his physical attributes, but I believe he is going to have a long and productive NBA career even as complimentary piece just because he seems to be willing to run the system he is asked to run. Julius looks like a stubborn player too selective about what he is willing to do. In resume, I believe Julius has more physical tools than Dlo but I don't know if he is going to show anything else. I feel more comfortable showing my money to Dlo than to Julius at this point even when it is clear Julius has some unmatched physical attributes and skills. |
I'm actually feeling better about Julius this season because he improved his deficiencies and even found a niche as a tertiary playmaker. He's not been consistent this month, as you stated, but he's also put together some really dominant and clutch stretches that put me at ease. Feels replicable.
Sometimes Russell is just drifting out there. I have legit concerns about his motor. |
I feel like the playmaker role was a genius move by Luke to keep Julius involved. When he is going for assists, he bounces around the court and blocks defenders from getting to the shooter like his life depends on it. If it isn't going to be his assist, he doesn't do that. He stands off to the side and doesn't do anything.
The drawback is he is not an offensive threat when he plays this role and it really only generates 3 point looks. |
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dao
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dao wrote: | | nash wrote: | Randle is still the young player that really puzzles me. I still have the impression that he can be either a huge asset or a huge headache going forward, I just can't decide which one.
He has some distinct and unmatched talents, but most of the time don't look like a player willing to do what is needed to build a winning program. |
Randle is #33 in the league in Real Plus Minus for PF's playing at least 20 mpg. He fills the stat sheet, and occasionally looks like an absolute stud, but when you look at the totality of his on court impact, he leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn't spread the floor offensively. His defensive effort and IQ on defensive rotations are terrible.
I still think Nance is a more impactful player than him. Nance btw is #19 in RPM for PF's with 20 mpg, and is #20 overall. Nance also has a significantly higher BPM, at +2.0 compared to 0.0 for Randle.
Biggest thing for me: Nance is the #14 PF in defensive RPM. Randle? #60. He's one of the worst defensive bigs in the NBA.
Randle has more upside, but man, will he ever put it all together His low IQ and feel for the game make me wonder. |
We're not doing this whole Jules v. Nance debate again are we? Nance can't shoulder the heavier minutes and is doing just well in his role. |
The question is Randle and his viability as starting PF long term. He's due for a huge contract this offseason, and his impact on the court doesn't seem to warrant it tbh. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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The question is also Nance's ability to stay on the floor, which hasn't been impressive so far. I hope he gets healed up this time.
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iceberg01
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Treble Clef.
I've always felt in my heart that Randle & Clarkson will eventually get traded. Reason being Clarkson is really just an average/good NBA bench player, and Randle has a skill set that ultimately, is not a championship skill set:
All of this could change quickly if Randle comes back & makes a big leap in year 4 next year, but it's UNLIKELY that he becomes the type of 4 that can defend ELITE opposing 4's: he simply doesn't have the type of length to bother the Porzingis's, AD's, etc.
Although you could argue that he could become a Draymond-level defender, he's pretty far away from that right now. Draymond is a scrapper who views offense as unnecessary, and tries to get his hands on every ball, loose ball, shot, rebound, etc. He has a defensive MINDSET. Randle doesn't, although to his credit, he does give max effort when he's not sulking.
But, the single biggest issue with Randle is that he has an offensive game that can be pretty easily neutralized. He DOES have a problem finishing against length. Too often, even off of the dribble, he'll jump up & hold the ball, looking for a spot on the backboard to try to "english" the ball off of. And quite simply, in high-level games, that's not exactly the high-percentage shot you want your paint player taking. He also has a predictable spin-move, and no real post game to speak of.
The day Randle lights up one of the other young superstar PF's is the day I start looking at him as a potential star. So far it hasn't happened yet. Until then, I think he'll be a 17, 10 & 4 guy. Very good. Just not great.
This isn't to say that I don't think Randle has the ability to become a helluva player. At his peak, once he gets a jumper, I think he'll be a Paul Millsap who can handle & kick out to 3-point shooters. Which is DAMN good. Just not championship-level good. As good as Millsap is, he can't hold AD or Porzingis, or KAT, for that matter--'s jock strap. And therein the problem lies... At his best, Randle isn't a top-5 NBA PF, IMO.
Last edited by iceberg01 on Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Kirby Brian
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: | Ingram fits perfectly as our stretch four and eventually fulltime pf. He gives us length, hustle, defense and perimeter shooting.
I don't think you guys realize but Ingram's body can fill out like Dwight did. |
He'll be lucky to get as big as Tayshaun Prince |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Randle also makes reads in transition and is starting to make reads in the half court too. He's starting to hit shots. What is destroying his impact is his defense. I will say that the team can't have two players who are horrible rim protectors at PF-C unless we're starting three Kawhi Leonard around him. And the front office needs to do something about that.
Randle had a horrible game and yet can put up 7-7-7. That's frankly something we can't say about Russell, he hasn't learned how to impact the game when things aren't going his way.
I feel good about his strides, but we need rim protection at center soon. If the front office doesn't make a move for one... There's a case for trading Randle.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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2004 version of Dwight Howard's right calf weighs more than Ingram.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | Randle also makes reads in transition and is starting to make reads in the half court too. He's starting to hit shots. What is destroying his impact is his defense. I will say that the team can't have two players who are horrible rim protectors at PF-C unless we're starting three Kawhi Leonard around him. And the front office needs to do something about that.
Randle had a horrible game and yet can put up 7-7-7. That's frankly something we can't say about Russell, he hasn't learned how to impact the game when things aren't going his way.
I feel good about his strides, but we need rim protection at center soon. If the front office doesn't make a move for one... There's a case for trading Randle. |
Zu has the potential to be a stretch and protect 5 - a chance that he's a great fit next to Randle. Zu isn't going to be the floor runner I want next to Randle (although he runs his lane hard), an additional value that intrigues me with Zu is top of the key passing, potentially. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | Randle also makes reads in transition and is starting to make reads in the half court too. He's starting to hit shots. What is destroying his impact is his defense. I will say that the team can't have two players who are horrible rim protectors at PF-C unless we're starting three Kawhi Leonard around him. And the front office needs to do something about that.
Randle had a horrible game and yet can put up 7-7-7. That's frankly something we can't say about Russell, he hasn't learned how to impact the game when things aren't going his way.
I feel good about his strides, but we need rim protection at center soon. If the front office doesn't make a move for one... There's a case for trading Randle. |
Parts of his defense are showing improvement. He does a good job now of closing out on shooters and contesting the shot, he didn't do that a month ago. And he is improving on hedging and then getting back to his man. His worst weakness is sometimes awareness, and that can be tied to effort and intensity. If he will be one of those guys who can give you 25-30 mpg at full intensity but not 35+, you adjust your rotations.
And I agree we need rim protection, if anyone expected that from Randle (or any of our PFs) they were too optimistic. If you could guarantee that Noel would give you 72+ games a season that would be worth exploring a trade.
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | Randle also makes reads in transition and is starting to make reads in the half court too. He's starting to hit shots. What is destroying his impact is his defense. I will say that the team can't have two players who are horrible rim protectors at PF-C unless we're starting three Kawhi Leonard around him. And the front office needs to do something about that.
Randle had a horrible game and yet can put up 7-7-7. That's frankly something we can't say about Russell, he hasn't learned how to impact the game when things aren't going his way.
I feel good about his strides, but we need rim protection at center soon. If the front office doesn't make a move for one... There's a case for trading Randle. |
Zu has the potential to be a stretch and protect 5 - a chance that he's a great fit next to Randle. Zu isn't going to be the floor runner I want next to Randle (although he runs his lane hard), an additional value that intrigues me with Zu is top of the key passing, potentially. |
Zubac-Randle could work out well if we find that Zubac could be a legit rim protector. I think it's important Luke finds time for him and takes minutes off Mozgov or unfortunately Tarik when Nance is back. We'd also save money developing him over pursuing a crazy contract like Noel's about to command, which could offset the infamous 2016 signings nicely.
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levon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | DLO + INgram+Nance is our young core for the future
With possibly ZUbac |
Randle and Zub are def part of this core, and so is JC.
We need to make a quick move on Lou (highest asset) and Young (will likely opt out and want double his salary). |
Zubac still young, so I cant tell.
However, Randle isn't
INgram when he beefs up will eventually play the 4 where he actually has quickness advantage, unlike the perimeter where he has 0 quickness advantage.
Also, I think JC will get traded down the line. Maybe this summer or next tradeline, unless the FO stay inactive again |
Great, more fake news. |
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