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defense
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| I hope Randle doesn't take on this victim attitude that some of you are trying to sell. Hopefully he says "ok, you want to bench me, then I'm going to dominate and make it an easy decision to put me back in the starting line up". Rather than looking for someone to blame, just prove whom ever wrong. The Whom ever being Luke, Larry, Ingram and Kuzma in this case. |
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Roon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | I hope Randle doesn't take on this victim attitude that some of you are trying to sell. Hopefully he says "ok, you want to bench me, then I'm going to dominate and make it an easy decision to put me back in the starting line up". Rather than looking for someone to blame, just prove whom ever wrong. The Whom ever being Luke, Larry, Ingram and Kuzma in this case. |
Yeah I hope so too. |
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Kjj10697X
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| cmonkee wrote: |
More signals that Randle will start the season off the bench |
Didn't they say the same thing about JC last year. The "we need a starter off the bench to dominate against second units". Everyone from Spectrum was all for it including James Worthy, DFish, etc. Well, they have had someone to replace JC in the starting unit since then. Uncle P, then KCP, and next year its PG.
I think the writing in on the wall for JR. |
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: |
5. We need to make a decision on Randle this summer,
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It sure seems like that decision was made before the season even started. No real attempt to get him under contract with his current contract expiring. Openly talking about how "sacred" their cap space is so they can bring in at least 2 big time free agents - the main one, Lebron plays what position again?
I think they've been pretty clear with Julius. If all else fails, we'll re-sign him...  |
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dao
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Manu, a HOFer, came off the bench for inferior players for basically his entire career. As long as Randle gets 28+ mpg and finishes games, he has nothing to complain about. If he continues to outplay Nance like he did in preseason, then he will get more minutes than Nance. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | Hopefully he says "ok, you want to bench me, then I'm going to dominate and make it an easy decision to put me back in the starting line up". |
He already did that. All it did was make Luke essentially go "Well we like him(Randle) dominating second units. Larry sucking as a starter and adding nothing offensively? Well yeah but it's just cause he gets emotional."
If Kuzma dropped 20 points a game over the first 10 pre-season games and Ingram played horribly, Luke would say the same thing about Kuzma and dominating second units before he played him over Ingram.
I've never seen a guy get so thoroughly outplayed both coming off the bench and starting, and still get rewarded with a start in an atmosphere that's supposed to be about "earning" your starting position. There's not much more Randle could have done to lock down that starting position. Luke taking it away with no real evidence relevant to the actual game as to what Larry's actually done to earn it makes all the other chatter and standard meaningless.
The "Well he looks good next to Lopez." No Larry doesn't. He looks the exat same he's always looked as a starter, and Luke hasn't given Randle much of a chance with Lopez in practice or in actual games. The "well we won after Luke started Larry" had nothing to do with Larry and everything to do with him playing Lopez.
There is absolutely nothing that Larry did to actually earn or take the starting position from Julius and he's fully within his right to feel some kind of way about it, as it went against everything Luke was selling. He did everything right and still watches someone who didn't earn it get rewarded over him. I'd be pissed too, as would any other player.
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Texas_Pete
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| cmonkee wrote: |
More signals that Randle will start the season off the bench |
Ginobili did it. Lamar Odom (reluctantly) did it. Why not Randle? He can really "get his numbers" in this his contract year vs 2nd unit players. Not too many bench players should be able to deal with him. He should honestly embrace it. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Texas_Pete wrote: |
Ginobili did it. Lamar Odom (reluctantly) did it. Why not Randle? |
Why can't Larry? Why can't Ingram? And what has Nance done to actually earn the starting position.
You can't preach about "earning it" all off-season and set all these brass rings you need to do in order to earn the starting position, and then go against all of it just for the sake of it.
That's the biggest problem. Randle did everything right, did everything Luke said, fit every criteria that comes with "earning" the starting position. Lead our team in rebounds, steals and blocks in pre-season. Thoroughly outplayed Larry in every way whether it was coming off the bench or starting.
Every single criteria Luke preached about Randle did, and earned the starting spot. If you're a coach that preaches that you'd better stick to it or be consistent, or you start earning the ire of the locker room and the guys you screw over that start seeing you as a guy who sets imaginary brass rings but really has no intention on acting upon them and will always have an excuse ready for why he's gonna keep going with the guy you're outplaying over you while you're on as short a leash as possible. The favoritism doesn't fly when you're trying to preach the mentality and environment that Luke has, and it hasn't gone unnoticed. I assure that.
Instead of saying "Why can't Randle just be happy coming off the bench." the better question is, using Luke's own criteria and requirements, what the heck did Larry do in the entirety of pre-season that would justify him earning the start over Randle? The "he's a better defender" stuff isn't really relevant anymore, and even then he was only a better help side defender, and that's not looking like the case anymore.
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| for one thing, Larry actually sets picks |
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MJST
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | for one thing, Larry actually sets picks |
So does Bogut. Should he start over Lopez?
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: |
5. We need to make a decision on Randle this summer,
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It sure seems like that decision was made before the season even started. No real attempt to get him under contract with his current contract expiring. Openly talking about how "sacred" their cap space is so they can bring in at least 2 big time free agents - the main one, Lebron plays what position again?
I think they've been pretty clear with Julius. If all else fails, we'll re-sign him... |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | I hope Randle doesn't take on this victim attitude that some of you are trying to sell. Hopefully he says "ok, you want to bench me, then I'm going to dominate and make it an easy decision to put me back in the starting line up". Rather than looking for someone to blame, just prove whom ever wrong. The Whom ever being Luke, Larry, Ingram and Kuzma in this case. |
He has been doing that this preseason
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | for one thing, Larry actually sets picks |
So does Bogut. Should he start over Lopez? |
you wanted to know what Larry does better than Julius. Larry makes the offense flow, he sets picks, he moves the ball and he anticipates better on defense. I know... I know... where's the video? I don't have any video, don't need it, we've got the games coming up to provide the video because Julius eventually reverts to form.
Btw, clearly they aren't looking at Larry as the long term solution at starting PF, he's just the better "fit" at the moment. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | for one thing, Larry actually sets picks |
So does Bogut. Should he start over Lopez? |
you wanted to know what Larry does better than Julius. Larry makes the offense flow |
How? by adding nothing?
Also "anticipating better on defense." doesn't seem to be relevant or accurate anymore, particularly this pre-season. Larry still can't defend switches on the perimeter either. Which is gonna happen a lot against other starting teams. Know who would be great to have behind Larry to clean up when he can't do that? Bogut.
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | for one thing, Larry actually sets picks |
So does Bogut. Should he start over Lopez? |
you wanted to know what Larry does better than Julius. Larry makes the offense flow |
How? by adding nothing?
Also "anticipating better on defense." doesn't seem to be relevant or accurate anymore, particularly this pre-season. Larry still can't defend switches on the perimeter either. Which is gonna happen a lot against other starting teams. Know who would be great to have behind Larry to clean up when he can't do that? Bogut. |
well... you can tell that to Luke who sees Jules in practice as well as in games and gets advanced stats that we probably don't have access to either...
I don't have anything against Julius, he seems like a great guy but he is what he is. Expectations are higher if he is starting, coming off the bench, expectations are less, he can go Vinnie "Microwave" Johnson, miss setting some picks and stand there with the ball in his hands for 15 seconds for all I care. Anything positive coming off the bench is gravy. |
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RCS926
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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It seems pretty clear that Nance is going to start. LNJ basically let the cat out of the bag during his post-practice interview. I don't want to crap on him because clearly he has worked hard and isn't on top of the practice leaderboard for nothing. However, he contributed so little during the preseason after talking such a good game on media day.
During his most recent interview, Larry was talking a good game again by mentioning that he doesn't plan on being an offensive liability out there. We'll see how that plays out tomorrow, but I'll believe it when I see it. |
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RCS926
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | HumanVictoryCigar wrote: | | for one thing, Larry actually sets picks |
So does Bogut. Should he start over Lopez? |
you wanted to know what Larry does better than Julius. Larry makes the offense flow |
How? by adding nothing?
Also "anticipating better on defense." doesn't seem to be relevant or accurate anymore, particularly this pre-season. Larry still can't defend switches on the perimeter either. Which is gonna happen a lot against other starting teams. Know who would be great to have behind Larry to clean up when he can't do that? Bogut. |
well... you can tell that to Luke who sees Jules in practice as well as in games and gets advanced stats that we probably don't have access to either...
I don't have anything against Julius, he seems like a great guy but he is what he is. Expectations are higher if he is starting, coming off the bench, expectations are less, he can go Vinnie "Microwave" Johnson, miss setting some picks and stand there with the ball in his hands for 15 seconds for all I care. Anything positive coming off the bench is gravy. |
Except he didn't do this in the preseason...  |
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Dr. Funkbot
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | defense wrote: | | Hopefully he says "ok, you want to bench me, then I'm going to dominate and make it an easy decision to put me back in the starting line up". |
He already did that. All it did was make Luke essentially go "Well we like him(Randle) dominating second units. Larry sucking as a starter and adding nothing offensively? Well yeah but it's just cause he gets emotional."
If Kuzma dropped 20 points a game over the first 10 pre-season games and Ingram played horribly, Luke would say the same thing about Kuzma and dominating second units before he played him over Ingram.
I've never seen a guy get so thoroughly outplayed both coming off the bench and starting, and still get rewarded with a start in an atmosphere that's supposed to be about "earning" your starting position. There's not much more Randle could have done to lock down that starting position. Luke taking it away with no real evidence relevant to the actual game as to what Larry's actually done to earn it makes all the other chatter and standard meaningless.
The "Well he looks good next to Lopez." No Larry doesn't. He looks the exat same he's always looked as a starter, and Luke hasn't given Randle much of a chance with Lopez in practice or in actual games. The "well we won after Luke started Larry" had nothing to do with Larry and everything to do with him playing Lopez.
There is absolutely nothing that Larry did to actually earn or take the starting position from Julius and he's fully within his right to feel some kind of way about it, as it went against everything Luke was selling. He did everything right and still watches someone who didn't earn it get rewarded over him. I'd be pissed too, as would any other player. |
Disagree here. Larry plays the game the right way. He does the little things, pays attention on D, moves the ball on offense, sets good screens ect. Also, Larry was on top of the leader board for the practices- he does everything and is a leader by example. So- yes Jules is a better rebounder and ball handler, but he is not a more complete player. He got benched for a reason.
I think that Randle has shown a lot of improvement since last season and he is certainly in better shape, but Nance put in a lot of work in the offseason as well. Nance is a couple years older and I think that it shows in how he plays on the floor. Randle will likely catch up and I would assume regain his starting position at some point in the season. We will see.
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Randles jump shot is more fluid and it looks like it has better arc, if he adds a jump shot to his game with better D, he’s gonna have a all star season. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
1. He's the best PF we have (Kuzma will have his ups and downs as a rookie).
2. He fits better with Zo and Lopez than Nance - going by preseason numbers, Randle has been a better defender, slasher, finisher, shooter, socrer and transition player. In fact, by the preseason, there isn't a thing Nance did better than Randle. Thus, the only grounds to say Nance is a better fit is that, unlike Randle, he's more invisible on the Court so won't get in Lopez's way. That doesn't make Nance a better fit, that makes him a potential liability.
3. We need to get off to good starts whereas our starting lineup has had problems last year - that means playing our best players.
4. Starting Randle makes it easier to give him large minutes while managing his minutes so that he isn't exhausted by the time the 4th quarter rolls around.
5. We need to make a decision on Randle this summer, and part of that decision hinges on whether he can be a long term starter and how he can fit consistently playing with high level players (such as Lopez, for now, but guys like Lebron/George in the future).
6. We need to develop Randle and see if he can adjust/evolve his game to fit any role he is given rather than stagnating and requiring that a team fits around him.
7. Even if Randle is less of a fit with Lopez and Zo (which I disagree with), we aren't a championship team (or close to it), so fit isn't really a priority yet (such as it would be for a contending team) and especially isn't a priority for an up and coming team like ours over factors #5 and #6 above.
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This won't be well liked.
Reasons to start Nance
1. Nance will only play 10-15mpg.
2. Nance plays best next to ball-dominant players, perimeter and paint. It allows him to do what he does best with off-ball stuff on both ends of the floor. In this case, Lopez.
3. It's possible that Nance fits better with Zo than Randle because Randle wasn't green-lit to push the ball anyway and he's the better rim runner.
4. Nance has twice the deflection rate of any other frontline Laker player in 6 less minutes than Randle. Perimeter defense.
5. Neither Nance nor Randle are great 1 on 1 w perimeter switches, but it's ball-denial, bumping cutters, denying position, stunting, shading passing lanes to shooters, screening, and weakside help from the 4 slot (not the 5) that Nance provides consistently over Randle.
6. Nance moves the ball, even as a non-threat because he defers to a teammate and goes automatically to screen. This helps ensure that Lopez gets the touches.
7. Neither Nance nor Randle provide any perimeter gravity to the 3pt line, so off-ball play is that much more important.
8. Randle looked like a different player taking advantage of 2nd units playing backup C, where he could bullyball and get away with it, was already in the paint to swat, and didn't have to defer to teammates for scoring.
9. Nance is only down 2% in rebounding percentage compared to Randle based off last season.
10. This helps BOTH players look good, with Nance being an intangibles/off-ball player and Randle killing 2nd units next to Kuzma. If Randle starts, it's JC and Kuzma relied upon for scoring punch, and that's insufficient.
11. Randle is going to get his numbers and minutes anyway, and most likely finish games. But doing this doesn't throw LNJ's talent/abilities to the gutter by sitting him altogether.
12. We're not a playoff team. Does it matter that much?
13. If Randle wants to start, personally I think there needs to be 3 specific changes. Slow down, read the floor, be decisive, provide weakside help from the 4 slot, and don't hesitate on those 3s like he did the past 2 games.
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | defense wrote: | | I hope Randle doesn't take on this victim attitude that some of you are trying to sell. Hopefully he says "ok, you want to bench me, then I'm going to dominate and make it an easy decision to put me back in the starting line up". Rather than looking for someone to blame, just prove whom ever wrong. The Whom ever being Luke, Larry, Ingram and Kuzma in this case. |
He has been doing that this preseason |
If he doesn't start
And if he keeps up the effort for more than a few preseason games
I believe he will start again
I don't think it's his talent they doubt |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: |
There is absolutely nothing that Larry did to actually earn or take the starting position from Julius and he's fully within his right to feel some kind of way about it . |
Who knows? Everyone has talked about how Julius is playing better this preseason because he's been playing angry. Maybe Luke wants to keep him angry. Or maybe something else is going on that none of us know about.
But we know the Lakers didn't give him an extension and he's a guy on the bubble. If he's smart, which I think he is, he'll realize that it's a long season and he'll be spending all seasons earning/keeping a starting job as well as earning a new contract.
Anyway, I think this is going to be a season of constant flux and change so I don't really care that much who starts right now. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Mike, In think a lot of what you've posted is based on assumptions and/or ignores what we've seen this preseason (relying on last year's play instead)....
| Mike@LG wrote: | Reasons to start Nance
1. Nance will only play 10-15mpg. |
I'd rather give those minutes to Deng behind Randle and Kuzma. I think Deng offers more benefit than Nance right now and playing him some offers the potential of increasing his trade value.
| Quote: | | 2. Nance plays best next to ball-dominant players, perimeter and paint. It allows him to do what he does best with off-ball stuff on both ends of the floor. In this case, Lopez. |
This may be true. However, going by the preseason, it hasn't been. Nance hasn't played well this preseason next to anyone.
| Quote: | | 3. It's possible that Nance fits better with Zo than Randle because Randle wasn't green-lit to push the ball anyway and he's the better rim runner. |
This is speculation. I can't say you are wrong, but can't say you are right. It's appeared, by my eyes though, that Randle has improved his transition game during the preseason and looked great next to Caruso (who is Zo light). I also read some numbers from Cranjis that should, even with his more limited responsibilities handling the ball in the full court this preseason, Randle has outperformed Nance in transition.
| Quote: | | 4. Nance has twice the deflection rate of any other frontline Laker player in 6 less minutes than Randle. Perimeter defense. |
Was that true for this preseason? I would guess not. I'm going with the assumption here that Randle has transformed himself defensively based on his preseason defense. I would venture to guess that Randle will be even better as a defensive rebounder as compared to Nance this year, and we haven't talked about weakside rim protection either (which, surprisingly, Nance seems to not offer at all).
| Quote: | | 5. Neither Nance nor Randle are great 1 on 1 w perimeter switches, but it's ball-denial, bumping cutters, denying position, stunting, shading passing lanes to shooters, screening, and weakside help from the 4 slot (not the 5) that Nance provides consistently over Randle. |
Last year? Sure. However, again, going by this preseason, I completely disagree.
| Quote: | | 6. Nance moves the ball, even as a non-threat because he defers to a teammate and goes automatically to screen. This helps ensure that Lopez gets the touches. |
Yes, but it comes at a the sacrifice, for the most part, of playing 4 on 5 on offense. Nance isn't a threat and takes it to too much of an extreme. He also isn't aggressive off the ball (cutting) and doesn't have the offensive rebounding/put back talents to make up for his lack of scoring ability. It would be another thing if he could spot up from 3 and hit those as well, but he didn't take more than a single 3 (IIRC) in the preseason.
| Quote: | | 7. Neither Nance nor Randle provide any perimeter gravity to the 3pt line, so off-ball play is that much more important. |
Randle, as limited as it may be, has shown more of a desire to shoot the 3 than Nance. I'd give him that chance. And, again, we have to take into account the preseason, where Randle outperformed Nance as a cutter. This makes no mention of offensive rebounding and put backs.
| Quote: | | 8. Randle looked like a different player taking advantage of 2nd units playing backup C, where he could bullyball and get away with it, was already in the paint to swat, and didn't have to defer to teammates for scoring. |
Randle looked like a different player against everyone. Just because he came off the bench doesn't mean he wasn't matched up with starters. He played against everyone and looked equally impressive on D against everyone, no matter where he was IMO.
| Quote: | | 9. Nance is only down 2% in rebounding percentage compared to Randle based off last season. |
Mentioned this above, but I believe Randle, with his improved conditioning, will create more distance between him and Nance when it comes to rebounding this season. Clearly, based off his 2016 season, Randle showed himself to be a more dominant rebounder. He then dipped a bit last season. I think his rebounding rate is going to improve even more this season. Again, the preseason has also been a reflection of that if you compare Randle's rebound rate to Nance's.
| Quote: | | 10. This helps BOTH players look good, with Nance being an intangibles/off-ball player and Randle killing 2nd units next to Kuzma. If Randle starts, it's JC and Kuzma relied upon for scoring punch, and that's insufficient. |
It all depends on matchups. This argument only holds water if you think of rotations as hockey shifts, whole sale lineup changes. If you mix and match as needed, especially with Ball playing heavy minutes, offense shouldn't be a problem. Even when Randle was starting last year and this preseason, the bench outperformed the starters offensively anyway. I don't think this argument holds any water. Its just one made by Luke that sounds good to rationalize a potentially bad decision.
| Quote: | | 11. Randle is going to get his numbers and minutes anyway, and most likely finish games. But doing this doesn't throw LNJ's talent/abilities to the gutter by sitting him altogether. |
I would rather give his minutes to Deng, Randle and Kuzma. The emergence of Kuzma changed the equation for me.
| Quote: | | 12. We're not a playoff team. Does it matter that much? |
Yes, especially because we aren't a playoff team. We need to develop the players who are most important to our potential future and do things which help us make decisions next summer. That means playing Randle a bunch, seeing if he develops even more and, hopefully, watching him turn himself into a player we either can't afford to let go or one who is in high trade demand so that we don't have to lose him for nothing next summer.
| Quote: | | 13. If Randle wants to start, personally I think there needs to be 3 specific changes. Slow down, read the floor, be decisive, provide weakside help from the 4 slot, and don't hesitate on those 3s like he did the past 2 games. |
I disagree. You ask Randle to fit the team, not the other way around. If he cannot do that, its never too late to start giving Nance minutes later. You don't enable Randle's bad habits, you develop him into good habits and, if you find he can't adjust, then you have your answer regarding his future. Remember, we're not necessarily trying to win right now, we're trying to develop players and determine whether a player like Randle is a part of our future.
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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LS you're are making a lot assumptions after one short preseason where he missed half of his games with an injury vs 2 years of putting up by far better advanced stats.
Now Randle had a decent preseason but he didnt look great and in one game looked awful.
Getting Deng minutes isnt a bad idea but I would take minutes from JR to make it happen.
Last edited by Lucky_Shot on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39544
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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A few preseason games takes precedence over 2 years of season play? Come on...
Not to mention the team looked really bad until Nance was inserted into the starting line up. Could be brook, could be both, could be that we played crappy teams. Anyway, the main idea is a few preseason games are no where near enough to be making all these claims. Kinda like when everyone was proclaiming he was so improved at shooting before he played at all. |
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