Me too. The kid is 19 years old. 19! He is going to be a real player in the league. I can't wait!
In 2-3 years it wouldn't surprise me if he is the best PF in the league.
I could see it. He is going to be a real strong player in the league. Too big for small forwards to guard, too fast and skilled for power forwards to handle. I can't wait! This draft is looking very good for us.
I think the most easily correctable element of Randle's development as a shooter is how he jumps. His feet are usually in the correct position, or close to it, with his left foot slightly ahead of his right. However, a good portion of the time, he will twist the lower half of his body clockwise so that when he lands, his left foot is directly in front of his right foot. I only saw him do this once last night, when he knocked down a 15 footer from the right elbow. If he can eliminate that twist, he'll add a few percentage points to that jumper.
Go to 10:32 of this video. Still made the shot, but this habit lowers your percentage.
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:04 pm Post subject:
If he had stepped back another foot he would have made a 3-point shot last night. I know the Lebron the comparison is filled with inaccuracies and ignites all kinds of emotion, but it's hard not to see it when he's bringing the ball up the floor and running on the break. Ideally he'd be best on a team that pushed tempo. This stationary halfcourt stuff is when he struggles.
I think the most easily correctable element of Randle's development as a shooter is how he jumps. His feet are usually in the correct position, or close to it, with his left foot slightly ahead of his right. However, a good portion of the time, he will twist the lower half of his body clockwise so that when he lands, his left foot is directly in front of his right foot. I only saw him do this once last night, when he knocked down a 15 footer from the right elbow. If he can eliminate that twist, he'll add a few percentage points to that jumper.
Go to 10:32 of this video. Still made the shot, but this habit lowers your percentage.
Great observation, GT. I totally missed that and I agree with your assessment.
I think the most easily correctable element of Randle's development as a shooter is how he jumps. His feet are usually in the correct position, or close to it, with his left foot slightly ahead of his right. However, a good portion of the time, he will twist the lower half of his body clockwise so that when he lands, his left foot is directly in front of his right foot. I only saw him do this once last night, when he knocked down a 15 footer from the right elbow. If he can eliminate that twist, he'll add a few percentage points to that jumper.
That's how Jordan Hill has "fixed" his jumper..
I have other issues with Randle's jumper. His "shot pocket" as you'd call it, is too low, especially on the 15 foot jumpers. So, he gets no arch, and also he doesn't get full extension on his follow through because of this. (many players don't need full extension, but, there's no better guide for the distance of a shot. full extension = consistent stroke). BUT if you notice, 4/5 jumpers he's made in recent games have been from about 17 feet, his shot pocket has been above his head, and he's had some arch on his shot.
Joined: 28 May 2003 Posts: 8598 Location: (physically) West Seattle (heart) Venice Beach
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
I think the most easily correctable element of Randle's development as a shooter is how he jumps. His feet are usually in the correct position, or close to it, with his left foot slightly ahead of his right. However, a good portion of the time, he will twist the lower half of his body clockwise so that when he lands, his left foot is directly in front of his right foot. I only saw him do this once last night, when he knocked down a 15 footer from the right elbow. If he can eliminate that twist, he'll add a few percentage points to that jumper.
That's how Jordan Hill has "fixed" his jumper..
I have other issues with Randle's jumper. His "shot pocket" as you'd call it, is too low, especially on the 15 foot jumpers. So, he gets no arch, and also he doesn't get full extension on his follow through because of this. (many players don't need full extension, but, there's no better guide for the distance of a shot. full extension = consistent stroke). BUT if you notice, 4/5 jumpers he's made in recent games have been from about 17 feet, his shot pocket has been above his head, and he's had some arch on his shot.
Agree with both of you.
I've said it before, but he also need to consistently keep his follow-through held up all the way until the ball hits something (preferably the bottom of the net).
I don't have the numbers, but it seems like most every time he shoots and doesn't keep it held up, he misses.
This is especially true with his FT shooting.
Like you were saying, KIROE, if he can shoot it with full extension (especially shooting it from the triple-threat position, after a jab-fake, before committing his dribble), and he keeps that follow-through held up (pose for the cameras!), it will seriously improve his accuracy. _________________ Everything. Changes.
If he had stepped back another foot he would have made a 3-point shot last night. I know the Lebron the comparison is filled with inaccuracies and ignites all kinds of emotion, but it's hard not to see it when he's bringing the ball up the floor and running on the break. Ideally he'd be best on a team that pushed tempo. This stationary halfcourt stuff is when he struggles.
Randle has the best pg to push the tempo - Lin. Lin and the young rocket team made it to playoff surprisingly with the up-tempo game 2 years ago. They were like the Lakers now, with so many new guys. Before Lin's arrival, Morey gutted the team leaving only Chandler Parson from the old team, and even him was just in his 2nd year. By playing up-tempo game, it is easier to score points than a set offense which is quite hard for new team-mates still learning the set offence of the new coach. It is much harder for the rookies to get used to the new schemes. Since we have so many young guns, may as well play the up-tempo way. It is playing into Randle & Clarkson's strength and something Lin is really great at. Randle, Clarkson, Lin, Davis, Henry, Young etc. These young guys can run for sure. So why not? Scott can drill them to play better defense. Who knows. We may squeeze into playoff this way like Houston did.
That's how Jordan Hill has "fixed" his jumper..
I have other issues with Randle's jumper. His "shot pocket" as you'd call it, is too low, especially on the 15 foot jumpers. So, he gets no arch, and also he doesn't get full extension on his follow through because of this. (many players don't need full extension, but, there's no better guide for the distance of a shot. full extension = consistent stroke). BUT if you notice, 4/5 jumpers he's made in recent games have been from about 17 feet, his shot pocket has been above his head, and he's had some arch on his shot.
I mostly agree, although I'd use different terminology. The shot pocket, at least in my experience of how the term is used, is where you start your shot. Ideally it's where your forearm is parallel to the floor and your tricep is perpendicular to it. This guy's not in the ideal starting position with the 90 degree angle and all that, but this is where the "shot pocket" is, at least as I know it.
That 90 degree angle is maintained throughout the shot, until your shooting arm is in "waiter position" where your tricep is now what's parallel to the floor, and the forearm is perpendicular. (forgive the pic, it's the best one I could find to demonstrate what I mean.
IMO, Randle "heads" the ball, meaning that instead of having the ball in front of his head, as Allen does in this pic, he has it over the top of his head, behind his line of vision. I also use the term "7 the ball" because if you watch it from the side, the movement of the ball looks like the number 7. It goes up, backward, and then forward at a very flat angle. Mechanically, the shot happens in two (or even three!) parts, kind of like a trebuchet. You want the ball to just go up, and then go forward. Any left/right, dipping below the shot pocket, or backward movement is negative motion that generally hurts your shooting percentages.
In my experience, guys that head the ball do so because they don't lock their wrist early in their shot form, and rest their hand on top of the ball rather than behind it, like this picture.
Randle doesn't always head the ball, but when he does, he does it because he starts his shot form with his shooting hand on top of the ball, and that's when his shot is flat.
As for extension, I totally agree with you. My favorite shooting coach is a guy named Dave Hopla, and Hopla uses a phrases over and over again. "Get your elbow past your eyebrow." on the follow through. I like that and use it quite a bit. Heading the ball and not getting your elbow past your eyebrow are related, IMO.
That's how Jordan Hill has "fixed" his jumper..
I have other issues with Randle's jumper. His "shot pocket" as you'd call it, is too low, especially on the 15 foot jumpers. So, he gets no arch, and also he doesn't get full extension on his follow through because of this. (many players don't need full extension, but, there's no better guide for the distance of a shot. full extension = consistent stroke). BUT if you notice, 4/5 jumpers he's made in recent games have been from about 17 feet, his shot pocket has been above his head, and he's had some arch on his shot.
I mostly agree, although I'd use different terminology. The shot pocket, at least in my experience of how the term is used, is where you start your shot. Ideally it's where your forearm is parallel to the floor and your tricep is perpendicular to it. This guy's not in the ideal starting position with the 90 degree angle and all that, but this is where the "shot pocket" is, at least as I know it.
That 90 degree angle is maintained throughout the shot, until your shooting arm is in "waiter position" where your tricep is now what's parallel to the floor, and the forearm is perpendicular. (forgive the pic, it's the best one I could find to demonstrate what I mean.
IMO, Randle "heads" the ball, meaning that instead of having the ball in front of his head, as Allen does in this pic, he has it over the top of his head, behind his line of vision. I also use the term "7 the ball" because if you watch it from the side, the movement of the ball looks like the number 7. It goes up, backward, and then forward at a very flat angle. Mechanically, the shot happens in two (or even three!) parts, kind of like a trebuchet. You want the ball to just go up, and then go forward. Any left/right, dipping below the shot pocket, or backward movement is negative motion that generally hurts your shooting percentages.
In my experience, guys that head the ball do so because they don't lock their wrist early in their shot form, and rest their hand on top of the ball rather than behind it, like this picture.
Randle doesn't always head the ball, but when he does, he does it because he starts his shot form with his shooting hand on top of the ball, and that's when his shot is flat.
As for extension, I totally agree with you. My favorite shooting coach is a guy named Dave Hopla, and Hopla uses a phrases over and over again. "Get your elbow past your eyebrow." on the follow through. I like that and use it quite a bit. Heading the ball and not getting your elbow past your eyebrow are related, IMO.
You know, everyone always points to Ray Allen as having a perfect jumpshot to emulate but I don't believe that anyone should try to emulate to the perfect 90 degree angle he forms with his shooting arm by tucking his elbow. To me the most important thing with your release is getting straight followthrough to get the ball traveling in a straight line from your body to the hoop - having a 90 degree angle coils your arm in a way that forces the arm to unwind on your followthrough in an angle that isn't straight. I think everyone has a unique ideal shooting motion based on their body's natural alignment rather than a form out of a textbook.
That said there are clearly things with Randle's form that need to be cleaned up, though his "feel" and ability to already knock down jumpers in the 15-17' range is very encouraging.
Last edited by 44TheLogo on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Very very technical stuff there! Randle's hand looks relaxed exactly like that picture! But see, I'm not against "heading the ball" per se. I'd prefer Randle to head the ball if it means that his release will be higher, because when he doesn't head the ball, he shoots it from his eyebrows or forehead. And picture a 15 foot jumpshot from a guys eyebrows, it's guna be a line drive. If you try to get arch on a shot from your eyebrows, you're not going to be able to extend your arm (picture it). And it takes too much touch to make a jumper without full arm extension.
Usually over-jumping, or a low release will lead to less than full arm extension. Randle has had a mix of both from 15, in my eye. 4/5 makes the last 3 games have been jumpers from 17 feet with less elevation, and a higher release.
Very very technical stuff there! Randle's hand looks relaxed exactly like that picture! But see, I'm not against "heading the ball" per se. I'd prefer Randle to head the ball if it means that his release will be higher, because when he doesn't head the ball, he shoots it from his eyebrows or forehead. And picture a 15 foot jumpshot from a guys eyebrows, it's guna be a line drive. If you try to get arch on a shot from your eyebrows, you're not going to be able to extend your arm (picture it). And it takes too much touch to make a jumper without full arm extension.
Usually over-jumping, or a low release will lead to less than full arm extension. Randle has had a mix of both from 15, in my eye. 4/5 makes the last 3 games have been jumpers from 17 feet with less elevation, and a higher release.
It depends on the follow through though. You can easily get good arc on your shot shooting with a release point from the eyebrows if you have a "steve nash" type follow through.
edit: actually i was thinking of having a "starting point" at the eyebrows, not a release point. I agree that a release point at that level would be too low.
Very very technical stuff there! Randle's hand looks relaxed exactly like that picture! But see, I'm not against "heading the ball" per se. I'd prefer Randle to head the ball if it means that his release will be higher, because when he doesn't head the ball, he shoots it from his eyebrows or forehead. And picture a 15 foot jumpshot from a guys eyebrows, it's guna be a line drive. If you try to get arch on a shot from your eyebrows, you're not going to be able to extend your arm (picture it). And it takes too much touch to make a jumper without full arm extension.
Usually over-jumping, or a low release will lead to less than full arm extension. Randle has had a mix of both from 15, in my eye. 4/5 makes the last 3 games have been jumpers from 17 feet with less elevation, and a higher release.
It depends on the follow through though. You can easily get good arc on your shot shooting with a release point from the eyebrows if you have a "steve nash" type follow through.
edit: actually i was thinking of having a "starting point" at the eyebrows, not a release point. I agree that a release point at that level would be too low.
but you are also right, that a Steve Nash type form, you can get away with that low of a shot release, so can James Harden, but, they do it from 20+ feet. You're not going to get much arm extension on a 15 footer with a low release point, or you'll shoot it long. I've seen Randle do this; it takes too much touch to not have a consistent follow through (full arm extension)
Very very technical stuff there! Randle's hand looks relaxed exactly like that picture! But see, I'm not against "heading the ball" per se. I'd prefer Randle to head the ball if it means that his release will be higher, because when he doesn't head the ball, he shoots it from his eyebrows or forehead. And picture a 15 foot jumpshot from a guys eyebrows, it's guna be a line drive. If you try to get arch on a shot from your eyebrows, you're not going to be able to extend your arm (picture it). And it takes too much touch to make a jumper without full arm extension.
Usually over-jumping, or a low release will lead to less than full arm extension. Randle has had a mix of both from 15, in my eye. 4/5 makes the last 3 games have been jumpers from 17 feet with less elevation, and a higher release.
It depends on the follow through though. You can easily get good arc on your shot shooting with a release point from the eyebrows if you have a "steve nash" type follow through.
edit: actually i was thinking of having a "starting point" at the eyebrows, not a release point. I agree that a release point at that level would be too low.
but you are also right, that a Steve Nash type form, you can get away with that low of a shot release, so can James Harden, but, they do it from 20+ feet. You're not going to get much arm extension on a 15 footer with a low release point, or you'll shoot it long. I've seen Randle do this; it takes too much touch to not have a consistent follow through (full arm extension)
you could do it if you've got that feathery shooter's touch like I do
You know, everyone always points to Ray Allen as having a perfect jumpshot to emulate but I don't believe that anyone should try to emulate to the perfect 90 degree angle he forms with his shooting arm by tucking his elbow. To me the most important thing with your release is getting straight followthrough to get the ball traveling in a straight line from your body to the hoop - having a 90 degree angle coils your arm in a way that forces the arm to unwind on your followthrough in an angle that isn't straight. I think everyone has a unique ideal shooting motion based on their body's natural alignment rather than a form out of a textbook.
That said there are clearly things with Randle's form that need to be cleaned up, though his "feel" and ability to already knock down jumpers in the 15-17' range is very encouraging.
I agree with you about the elbow, 44.
I think there's a distinction that's worth noting. The 90 degree angle that I'm talking about is the relationship between the forearm and the upper arm, which I believe should be maintained throughout the shot. Forgive the cheesy picture, but it shows the three different variations of this. Most guys do the first one.
I'm fine if the elbow flares out. As you said, it's a matter of bio-mechanics. For some guys, it's comfortable, for others it's the exact wrong thing. I cringe when I hear the old "tuck your elbow in" from coaches.
I tell my players, without the ball, to give the basket a high five from the top of the key, making sure that their middle finger touches the middle ring when their hand is straight. THAT is where I want the elbow. The shooting finger (middle) is much, much more important than the placement of the elbow, IMO. Some guys can have that perfect-looking form where everything lines up, but many (in fact, I'd say the majority) require the elbow to be out a little bit in order to get their hand to square up to the basket.
I do, however, think the 90 degree relationship between the forearm and the upper arm is still very important, regardless of elbow placement.
Very very technical stuff there! Randle's hand looks relaxed exactly like that picture! But see, I'm not against "heading the ball" per se. I'd prefer Randle to head the ball if it means that his release will be higher, because when he doesn't head the ball, he shoots it from his eyebrows or forehead. And picture a 15 foot jumpshot from a guys eyebrows, it's guna be a line drive. If you try to get arch on a shot from your eyebrows, you're not going to be able to extend your arm (picture it). And it takes too much touch to make a jumper without full arm extension.
Usually over-jumping, or a low release will lead to less than full arm extension. Randle has had a mix of both from 15, in my eye. 4/5 makes the last 3 games have been jumpers from 17 feet with less elevation, and a higher release.
It depends on the follow through though. You can easily get good arc on your shot shooting with a release point from the eyebrows if you have a "steve nash" type follow through.
edit: actually i was thinking of having a "starting point" at the eyebrows, not a release point. I agree that a release point at that level would be too low.
but you are also right, that a Steve Nash type form, you can get away with that low of a shot release, so can James Harden, but, they do it from 20+ feet. You're not going to get much arm extension on a 15 footer with a low release point, or you'll shoot it long. I've seen Randle do this; it takes too much touch to not have a consistent follow through (full arm extension)
I very much disagree with the high shot pocket that used to be taught, unless it's on a FT. Virtually all great shooters dip to somewhere between their waist and rib cage before starting their shot. It's a matter of kinetic energy, riding the "wave" of upward motion. The ball goes up as you uncoil into your jump.
For example, watch what Thompson does here immediately after he catches the ball, dipping into his shot pocket before going up.
Very very technical stuff there! Randle's hand looks relaxed exactly like that picture! But see, I'm not against "heading the ball" per se. I'd prefer Randle to head the ball if it means that his release will be higher, because when he doesn't head the ball, he shoots it from his eyebrows or forehead. And picture a 15 foot jumpshot from a guys eyebrows, it's guna be a line drive. If you try to get arch on a shot from your eyebrows, you're not going to be able to extend your arm (picture it). And it takes too much touch to make a jumper without full arm extension.
Usually over-jumping, or a low release will lead to less than full arm extension. Randle has had a mix of both from 15, in my eye. 4/5 makes the last 3 games have been jumpers from 17 feet with less elevation, and a higher release.
It depends on the follow through though. You can easily get good arc on your shot shooting with a release point from the eyebrows if you have a "steve nash" type follow through.
edit: actually i was thinking of having a "starting point" at the eyebrows, not a release point. I agree that a release point at that level would be too low.
but you are also right, that a Steve Nash type form, you can get away with that low of a shot release, so can James Harden, but, they do it from 20+ feet. You're not going to get much arm extension on a 15 footer with a low release point, or you'll shoot it long. I've seen Randle do this; it takes too much touch to not have a consistent follow through (full arm extension)
I very much disagree with the high shot pocket that used to be taught, unless it's on a FT. Virtually all great shooters dip to somewhere between their waist and rib cage before starting their shot. It's a matter of kinetic energy, riding the "wave" of upward motion. The ball goes up as you uncoil into your jump.
For example, watch what Thompson does here immediately after he catches the ball, dipping into his shot pocket before going up.
ya i have misused the term shot pocket, i meant release (higher release vs lower release)
You know, everyone always points to Ray Allen as having a perfect jumpshot to emulate but I don't believe that anyone should try to emulate to the perfect 90 degree angle he forms with his shooting arm by tucking his elbow. To me the most important thing with your release is getting straight followthrough to get the ball traveling in a straight line from your body to the hoop - having a 90 degree angle coils your arm in a way that forces the arm to unwind on your followthrough in an angle that isn't straight. I think everyone has a unique ideal shooting motion based on their body's natural alignment rather than a form out of a textbook.
That said there are clearly things with Randle's form that need to be cleaned up, though his "feel" and ability to already knock down jumpers in the 15-17' range is very encouraging.
I agree with you about the elbow, 44.
I think there's a distinction that's worth noting. The 90 degree angle that I'm talking about is the relationship between the forearm and the upper arm, which I believe should be maintained throughout the shot. Forgive the cheesy picture, but it shows the three different variations of this. Most guys do the first one.
I'm fine if the elbow flares out. As you said, it's a matter of bio-mechanics. For some guys, it's comfortable, for others it's the exact wrong thing. I cringe when I hear the old "tuck your elbow in" from coaches.
I tell my players, without the ball, to give the basket a high five from the top of the key, making sure that their middle finger touches the middle ring when their hand is straight. THAT is where I want the elbow. The shooting finger (middle) is much, much more important than the placement of the elbow, IMO. Some guys can have that perfect-looking form where everything lines up, but many (in fact, I'd say the majority) require the elbow to be out a little bit in order to get their hand to square up to the basket.
I do, however, think the 90 degree relationship between the forearm and the upper arm is still very important, regardless of elbow placement.
The "too much" picture looks like Shaq at the line.
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 Posts: 6937 Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:24 pm Post subject:
A lot of bigs (Larry Bird being the most famous) release the shot further above their head than a guard will.... reason is that it's a harder shot to block and, typically, the guy guarding them are shot blockers. But for Randle, he doesn't need to do that. Players will have to respect his driving ability so he will get space to shoot without needing the extra angle.
It's very hard to change this habit however imo. Not sure you lose accuracy because of it... i think it's only range although that wasn't true of Bird.
I think the most easily correctable element of Randle's development as a shooter is how he jumps. His feet are usually in the correct position, or close to it, with his left foot slightly ahead of his right. However, a good portion of the time, he will twist the lower half of his body clockwise so that when he lands, his left foot is directly in front of his right foot. I only saw him do this once last night, when he knocked down a 15 footer from the right elbow. If he can eliminate that twist, he'll add a few percentage points to that jumper.
Go to 10:32 of this video. Still made the shot, but this habit lowers your percentage.
Great point GT, i never liked his little quirk he does after he releases the ball. It completely throws off his kinetic chain.
Also at 12:48 in that video, you see another one of his flaws, at least in my eyes. The way he just puts the ball on the floor without using his first step. If he utilized his first step, he would have either got fouled by Gobert, or gotten right around him. Instead, he got cut off on the baseline. I hope the Lakers are working with him to cut these bad habits. Doesn't really seem like it though since he was doing these same things in summer league and it was driving me crazy
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 Posts: 6937 Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject:
The thing is though... you want a rookie to first get comfortable in the NBA and use the tools that got him there. There's enough to try and adapt to without overloading things with making a ton of technical changes on top of it. Let the first year go by and then go from there.
Kobe's jumper was awkward too in his first year (he didn't use his legs well) and his dribbling was all about crossing over (players picked his pocket a lot)... After his first year, they started working with him on that and he made great progress.
Rookie year is all about settling into the league. Last thing you want to do is confuse a rookie with info overload and it causes him to struggle... can't kill his confidence.
yeah absolutely GT, everything you say is exactly what I try to do as a shooter. Hand 90 degrees to elbow (with a slight elbow flare), middle finger shooting finger. What I try to do is imagine a straight line between myself and the basket, find the point on the rim closest to me along that line, and then hang my middle finger on the front of the rim. in practice it does the same thing as "high fiving" it, but forces the wrist to snap on the follow through to get strong backspin on the ball to give it that shooters touch.
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