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Omar Little
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 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Fallout wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | All this Jim Buss hate is completely unreasonable.. |
The inverse is true too. He hasn't done things to inspire confidence. We don't get the "hey everything will be fine" vibe.
The new clean-house, hate-anything-that-is-Phil hasn't been successful either. Worst Lakers record since they are in LA. Lost Dwight, our free agent all-star. Pau took a lesser salary to go to the Bulls.
Of course there's Nash. Wouldn't be nice to have someone on the Lakers staff who could evaluate Nash. Oh wait we did.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-buss-family-20140420-story.html#page=1
Jackson, in particular, found fault with giving Nash a three-year, $28-million contract and trading two first-round draft picks to acquire him in 2012 from Phoenix. Nash, 40, appeared in only 15 games this season because of chronic back pain.
"They took a flier on Nash that looked like it was going to be a really good thing," Jackson said. "Unfortunately, they didn't check with someone who had done therapy with the guy for the last 10 years, Alex McKechnie."
McKechnie was a physical therapist with the Lakers whose contract was not renewed in 2011. He now works for the Toronto Raptors and has conducted individual workouts with Nash and other NBA players in past off-seasons.
"They had cut ties with Alex, obviously, but still, Alex would have been a resource," Jackson said. "Steve has been hampered ever since that time and they kind of built the team around the way Steve plays." |
This is exactly the kind of completely bs potshot some of us complain about. Nash's problems in LA didn't stem from ongoing chronic back issues. They stemmed from the nerve damage caused by a fractured leg he suffered in a game as a laker. And the nerve damage issues have been something the finest physicians in the world can't fix.
Whether or not they kept on a physical therapist, or had the psychic ability to ask him if Nash would break his leg prior to it happening is silly, and another example of Jackson being extremely, transparently dishonest.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Last edited by Omar Little on Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Voices
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Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | About coaches, you're speaking as if Jerry West or Jerry Buss has never made mistakes on coaching hires. Remember, they brought in Magic and Kurt Rambus as the coach. That says plenty. |
Did they make 2 or 3 consecutive mistakes that immediately proved to be bad hires?
They went from a great coach in Riley to a coach who wound up doing a pretty good job in Dunleavy. They made a mistake with Magic, but it was the same sort of move that once led them to Riley (taking a chance on someone new without coaching expertise). Dunleavy took the Lakers back to the NBA Finals.
Del Harris is a fantastic assistant coach - I think people totally forget what type of team we were in the 90s. We were re-building. Del was cheap, he was an assistant/develop the players type, not a head coach who wins rings. I was a fan of Del at first because he did what he was supposed to. He helped Lakers re-build without any major issue. He was cheap. Perfect. We had so much young talent. When Shaq came in and Kobe became an all-star at 19, that's when Del was in over his head. So he rightfully lost his job. So is that really a bad hire? Hiring a guy that takes you from a 33 win team to a 50+ win team and then you fire him when he can't take you beyond 50+ wins to champion? And we gave Rambis what? 40 games as an interim in a lockout season? Right after Del was fired, you saw them replace him with Phil the next season. In fact hiring Rambis was one of the smartest things they did. You gave the fans a figure a token coach who was never in the long run plans unless something amazing happened. There wasn't a great head coach available right away, and when Phil was ready to come in the summer - they hired him. It was nothing like say hiring Mike D'Antoni after Mike Brown has failed the team. It was like keeping Bickerstaff to finish out the season and then get the right great coach in the summer.
So if you look at the timeline and what happened when each guy was hired, most of the time it yielded good results immediately (other than with Magic). It wasn't like Mike Brown to Mike D'Antoni to Byron Scott. It was Riley to Dunleavy (Dunleavys best job was in LA) to Magic to Del (Who did a very good job at first) to Rambis as interim to Phil. It wasn't ever truly hiring Magic on a longterm basis or Rambis. Both were more interim basis. And Rambis had the Lakers on what a 10 game win streak right away? Sure he wasn't head coach material but it was not like they hired someone on a longterm deal there. It was someone to finish out the season. Then summer comes - we get the greatest coach of all time.
The real coaches on longterm deals in the West era were Dunleavy, Harris and Phil. All of whom were outstanding hires at first. Don't believe me? Ask Dr Buss or read up on Dr Buss' opinion on the jobs those guys did in their first few years. Why is Dunleavy still considered everytime LA has a job opening? Because that's how good his job was back in the late 80's/early 90's.
Coaching in the NBA is all about having the players believe in you at the time and being the right fit. Brown and D'Antoni were 2 consecutively bad choices that cost LA dearly. In the West era there were coaches maybe worse than Brown/D'Antoni resume. But they fit what the immediate expectations and goals were. Del was brought in to re-build. Dunleavy was brought in to get Magic back to increase the pace and 1 or 2 last runs to the title. Phil was brought in to take a team that couldn't get over the top. Rambis was an interim - someone who wouldn't command longterm contract. All of these moves made sense immediately. The only true blunder was the Magic hire IMO which was corrected within a season. |
Putting the coaches on proper context...... Good post..
Magic was not good hire, but taking a chance on Magic was worth taking. Seriously, Magic really wanted no part of coaching, Dr. Buss convinced Magic to try it.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | In a way, the contract is hush money to keep him from saying anything he shouldn't |
Ironic because it kept Kobe "hush" the good soldier in the press for all of 4 months.
March 2014
| Quote: | Kobe Bryant Calls Out Lakers Front Office, Questions Culture Under Jim Buss
Kobe Bryant yesterday "took aim at the Lakers' front office in regards to the team's future," according to Dave McMenamin of ESPN L.A. Bryant, who spoke during a Lakers press conference announcing his knee injury would keep him sidelined the rest of the season, said, "I think we have to start at the top in terms of the culture of our team. What kind of culture do we want to have? What kind of system do we want to have? How do we want to play? It starts there and from there, you can start building out your team accordingly." Bryant was asked to clarify what "the top" meant, and "pointed to" Exec VP/Player Personnel Jim Buss and Exec VP/Business Operations Jeanie Buss. Bryant: "You got to start with Jim. You got to start with Jim and Jeanie and how that relationship plays out." Bryant offered "perhaps his most direct criticism of the Lakers' organization" since the summer of '07. He said that he has "'not one lick' of patience for the Lakers' management team" of Jim Buss and GM Mitch Kupchak "to rebuild the team into a contender." Bryant added that he would "like to be looped in more often by the Lakers' powers that be" |
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2014/03/13/Franchises/Lakers.aspx
I know since then Kobe has said they tried, he's publicly supported Byron.. I'd say all that lasts about 3 months if things don't go peachy this coming year. If Bryant misses the playoffs again this year, I don't think he's staying hush or applauding the efforts that brought him Jeremy Lin, Nick Young, Boozer and Jordan Hill as co-starters. |
So those moves shouldn't impress Kobe but Phil bringing in Calderon and Early while replacing former DPOY Tyson Chandler with Cole Aldrich convinced Melo that He should believe in Phil? They seem like similar moves to me.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | kikanga wrote: |
We are going in circles and I keep saying the same thing. I want to be able to post without you picking random fights with me in the future. So I will just say this one more time and I'm done.
Jim has been head of basketball operations since the passing of his father (2012-2013 season). Phil took over midway through this last season. They both had a shortened season (took over midway). During that FIRST offseason. They both had free agents who were traded to them within the last 3 years.
Jim lost his free agent (Dwight). And Phil kept his (Melo).
Comparing the first free agencies of Phil and Jim. Phil performed better. And he didn't have the Lakers winning legacy to lean on. Phil will likely have a better first full season than Jim (27-55, worst season in 50 years with the worst one game lose ever).
If you disagree with that. Cool. I have nothing else to say, besides... I hope Jim's first 5 year resume as head of basketball operations is better than Phil's.
Also I hope this post doesn't cause you to pick a fight with me in another non-related thread (like my posts have in the past). |
This is completely ridiculous, Jim Buss has been doing this for 9 years already. He's been the VP of Basketball Operations for 9 years. He's not a rookie at this. Yes, initally, Jerry may have been involved but as time goes on, I'm pretty sure he was hands off by the time we got our championship 5 years ago. All this Jim Buss hate is completely unreasonable.. |
I'm not saying anything controversial. Please try to hear me out.
Jim was never head of basketball operations until Dr. Buss passed away. That was somewhere in the middle of the 2012-2013 season. That offseason he lost dwight.
Phil became head of basketball operations near the end of this season, he retained Melo.
Both players were free agents. Both Phil and Jim could offer the free agent max money. Both free agents are in their prime.
But phil got the guy, and jim didn't. |
Factually NomisR is correct, Jim became head of ball operations in 2005. He became an owner when Dr Buss passed away.
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mnstrdnk
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | In a way, the contract is hush money to keep him from saying anything he shouldn't |
Ironic because it kept Kobe "hush" the good soldier in the press for all of 4 months.
March 2014
| Quote: | Kobe Bryant Calls Out Lakers Front Office, Questions Culture Under Jim Buss
Kobe Bryant yesterday "took aim at the Lakers' front office in regards to the team's future," according to Dave McMenamin of ESPN L.A. Bryant, who spoke during a Lakers press conference announcing his knee injury would keep him sidelined the rest of the season, said, "I think we have to start at the top in terms of the culture of our team. What kind of culture do we want to have? What kind of system do we want to have? How do we want to play? It starts there and from there, you can start building out your team accordingly." Bryant was asked to clarify what "the top" meant, and "pointed to" Exec VP/Player Personnel Jim Buss and Exec VP/Business Operations Jeanie Buss. Bryant: "You got to start with Jim. You got to start with Jim and Jeanie and how that relationship plays out." Bryant offered "perhaps his most direct criticism of the Lakers' organization" since the summer of '07. He said that he has "'not one lick' of patience for the Lakers' management team" of Jim Buss and GM Mitch Kupchak "to rebuild the team into a contender." Bryant added that he would "like to be looped in more often by the Lakers' powers that be" |
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2014/03/13/Franchises/Lakers.aspx
I know since then Kobe has said they tried, he's publicly supported Byron.. I'd say all that lasts about 3 months if things don't go peachy this coming year. If Bryant misses the playoffs again this year, I don't think he's staying hush or applauding the efforts that brought him Jeremy Lin, Nick Young, Boozer and Jordan Hill as co-starters. |
So those moves shouldn't impress Kobe but Phil bringing in Calderon and Early while replacing former DPOY Tyson Chandler with Cole Aldrich convinced Melo that He should believe in Phil? They seem like similar moves to me. |
I'd say that our moves look better than what the Knickerbockers have done |
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Voices
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Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | All this Jim Buss hate is completely unreasonable.. |
The inverse is true too. He hasn't done things to inspire confidence. We don't get the "hey everything will be fine" vibe.
The new clean-house, hate-anything-that-is-Phil hasn't been successful either. Worst Lakers record since they are in LA. Lost Dwight, our free agent all-star. Pau took a lesser salary to go to the Bulls.
Of course there's Nash. Wouldn't be nice to have someone on the Lakers staff who could evaluate Nash. Oh wait we did.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-buss-family-20140420-story.html#page=1
Jackson, in particular, found fault with giving Nash a three-year, $28-million contract and trading two first-round draft picks to acquire him in 2012 from Phoenix. Nash, 40, appeared in only 15 games this season because of chronic back pain.
"They took a flier on Nash that looked like it was going to be a really good thing," Jackson said. "Unfortunately, they didn't check with someone who had done therapy with the guy for the last 10 years, Alex McKechnie."
McKechnie was a physical therapist with the Lakers whose contract was not renewed in 2011. He now works for the Toronto Raptors and has conducted individual workouts with Nash and other NBA players in past off-seasons.
"They had cut ties with Alex, obviously, but still, Alex would have been a resource," Jackson said. "Steve has been hampered ever since that time and they kind of built the team around the way Steve plays." |
This is exactly the kind of completely bs potshot some of us complain about. Nash's problems in LA didn't stem from ongoing chronic back issues. They stemmed from the nerve damage caused by a fractured leg he suffered in a game as a laker. And the nerve damage issues have been something the finest physicians in the world can't fix.
Whether or not they kept on a physical therapist, or had the psychic ability to ask him if Nash would break his leg prior to it happening is silly, and another example of Jackson being extremely, transparently dishonest. |
This article discusses Steve's chronic nerve root irritation issue in his back.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1958031-steve-nash-why-back-injury-isnt-getting-better-and-what-lakers-can-do
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | About coaches, you're speaking as if Jerry West or Jerry Buss has never made mistakes on coaching hires. Remember, they brought in Magic and Kurt Rambus as the coach. That says plenty. |
Did they make 2 or 3 consecutive mistakes that immediately proved to be bad hires?
They went from a great coach in Riley to a coach who wound up doing a pretty good job in Dunleavy. They made a mistake with Magic, but it was the same sort of move that once led them to Riley (taking a chance on someone new without coaching expertise). Dunleavy took the Lakers back to the NBA Finals.
Del Harris is a fantastic assistant coach - I think people totally forget what type of team we were in the 90s. We were re-building. Del was cheap, he was an assistant/develop the players type, not a head coach who wins rings. I was a fan of Del at first because he did what he was supposed to. He helped Lakers re-build without any major issue. He was cheap. Perfect. We had so much young talent. When Shaq came in and Kobe became an all-star at 19, that's when Del was in over his head. So he rightfully lost his job. So is that really a bad hire? Hiring a guy that takes you from a 33 win team to a 50+ win team and then you fire him when he can't take you beyond 50+ wins to champion? And we gave Rambis what? 40 games as an interim in a lockout season? Right after Del was fired, you saw them replace him with Phil the next season. In fact hiring Rambis was one of the smartest things they did. You gave the fans a figure a token coach who was never in the long run plans unless something amazing happened. There wasn't a great head coach available right away, and when Phil was ready to come in the summer - they hired him. It was nothing like say hiring Mike D'Antoni after Mike Brown has failed the team. It was like keeping Bickerstaff to finish out the season and then get the right great coach in the summer.
So if you look at the timeline and what happened when each guy was hired, most of the time it yielded good results immediately (other than with Magic). It wasn't like Mike Brown to Mike D'Antoni to Byron Scott. It was Riley to Dunleavy (Dunleavys best job was in LA) to Magic to Del (Who did a very good job at first) to Rambis as interim to Phil. It wasn't ever truly hiring Magic on a longterm basis or Rambis. Both were more interim basis. And Rambis had the Lakers on what a 10 game win streak right away? Sure he wasn't head coach material but it was not like they hired someone on a longterm deal there. It was someone to finish out the season. Then summer comes - we get the greatest coach of all time.
The real coaches on longterm deals in the West era were Dunleavy, Harris and Phil. All of whom were outstanding hires at first. Don't believe me? Ask Dr Buss or read up on Dr Buss' opinion on the jobs those guys did in their first few years. Why is Dunleavy still considered everytime LA has a job opening? Because that's how good his job was back in the late 80's/early 90's.
Coaching in the NBA is all about having the players believe in you at the time and being the right fit. Brown and D'Antoni were 2 consecutively bad choices that cost LA dearly. In the West era there were coaches maybe worse than Brown/D'Antoni resume. But they fit what the immediate expectations and goals were. Del was brought in to re-build. Dunleavy was brought in to get Magic back to increase the pace and 1 or 2 last runs to the title. Phil was brought in to take a team that couldn't get over the top. Rambis was an interim - someone who wouldn't command longterm contract. All of these moves made sense immediately. The only true blunder was the Magic hire IMO which was corrected within a season. |
You forgot Randy Pfund who had almost the same record (66-80) as D'Antoni (67-87) and Rudy T who had a worse winning % (.558) than Mike Brown (.591). And maybe it's just me, but D'Antoni's (career .516) reminds me a lot of Dunleavy (career .461). During the 21 years between Riley's retirement and Phil's retirement 6 men were given a shot as head coach (not counting Bertka, Hamblen and Bickerstaff). We've seen two so far. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| mnstrdnk wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | In a way, the contract is hush money to keep him from saying anything he shouldn't |
Ironic because it kept Kobe "hush" the good soldier in the press for all of 4 months.
March 2014
| Quote: | Kobe Bryant Calls Out Lakers Front Office, Questions Culture Under Jim Buss
Kobe Bryant yesterday "took aim at the Lakers' front office in regards to the team's future," according to Dave McMenamin of ESPN L.A. Bryant, who spoke during a Lakers press conference announcing his knee injury would keep him sidelined the rest of the season, said, "I think we have to start at the top in terms of the culture of our team. What kind of culture do we want to have? What kind of system do we want to have? How do we want to play? It starts there and from there, you can start building out your team accordingly." Bryant was asked to clarify what "the top" meant, and "pointed to" Exec VP/Player Personnel Jim Buss and Exec VP/Business Operations Jeanie Buss. Bryant: "You got to start with Jim. You got to start with Jim and Jeanie and how that relationship plays out." Bryant offered "perhaps his most direct criticism of the Lakers' organization" since the summer of '07. He said that he has "'not one lick' of patience for the Lakers' management team" of Jim Buss and GM Mitch Kupchak "to rebuild the team into a contender." Bryant added that he would "like to be looped in more often by the Lakers' powers that be" |
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2014/03/13/Franchises/Lakers.aspx
I know since then Kobe has said they tried, he's publicly supported Byron.. I'd say all that lasts about 3 months if things don't go peachy this coming year. If Bryant misses the playoffs again this year, I don't think he's staying hush or applauding the efforts that brought him Jeremy Lin, Nick Young, Boozer and Jordan Hill as co-starters. |
So those moves shouldn't impress Kobe but Phil bringing in Calderon and Early while replacing former DPOY Tyson Chandler with Cole Aldrich convinced Melo that He should believe in Phil? They seem like similar moves to me. |
I'd say that our moves look better than what the Knickerbockers have done |
I wouldn't complain about either. Phil did well with his limited resources. I would love to have Early.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Voices
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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PJ was correct when he criticize the Lakers F O on how they did not do their homework on Steve's chronic nerve root irritation/ back injury.
Many on this site were critical of 76'ers for taking an injured Andrew Bynum, the Lakers needed to look in the mirror, they took damaged goods and gave up 4 draft picks two of which were first round picks for Nash, according Ramona Shelburne.
See below for the link.
[
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1958031-steve-nash-why-back-injury-isnt-getting-better-and-what-lakers-can-do
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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mnstrdnk
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersMDGurl wrote: | | Oh please.. let Love go to the Cavs and be on LeBron's team, be LeBron's (bleep). Then be stuck there two years later when LeBron leaves for greener pastures, cos he def aint winning a ring in Cleveland. |
Yup. If you want to play in Cleveland have at it. Randle gonna put in some work and show that we don't need love. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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You're forgetting the part where the nerve root irritation was caused by the nerve damage at the fracture site. PJ knows this. Nash's back issues were a known and manageable, if risky issue.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
So those moves shouldn't impress Kobe but Phil bringing in Calderon and Early while replacing former DPOY Tyson Chandler with Cole Aldrich convinced Melo that He should believe in Phil? They seem like similar moves to me. |
The two things are separate situations. Melo wanted to stay a Knick and there was almost no chance he was leaving a year ago. But then they had a disastrous year and the odds were that he may well leave. Bringing in Phil bought Dolan time. It gave Melo faith for the future that they brought in a champion, who wants to bring in a championship culture. Melo isn't stupid enough to think he will win a ring next season nor is Phil. The point was about the future.
Tell me VLF are you really going to pretend that I'm stupid enough to think that Phil trading for Calderon made Melo stay? Let's try not to pretend we are dumbasses here. You are a smart guy. You know what I meant by faith. It's about the future not the present. Players sign 3-4 year contracts not 1 year deals. Melo believes within 3-4 years Phil will have a championship caliber team in NY. Could he wrong? Absolutely. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the faith or the faith is based on. Phil trading for Jose. Calderon.
Kobe otoh was pissed that the Lakers front office let Phil go to NY. That they were having their worst season ever and he had heard that Lakers planned on punting for 2015 if no major 2014 free agent signed. Oh and that there was a perception that Jeannie/Jim weren't on the same page. He basically called them out / went on a little tantrum in March. Clearly he is over it for now. |
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Voices
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | You're forgetting the part where the nerve root irritation was caused by the nerve damage at the fracture site. PJ knows this. Nash's back issues were a known and manageable, if risky issue. |
I was totally unaware of how Steve's back had to be managed before you brought attention to this issue of Steve's nerve damage to his broken leg.
I am no fan of PJ when it comes to manipulating situations, he does that for sure, however PJ is a unique basketball mind and talent, he would certainly be a candidate to manage my team.
Nash's back issue is far more serious and complicated than I was ever aware of until I read this article. To give up 2 first and 2 second round picks plus 3 million for a player that needed to have his back managed in a way this article describes is not good management. Nash has a chronic back issue that was not going away and needed go be manage, including playing time, and the type of physicality he would have to play against, managed in way's that I was totally unaware was possible.
Below an example of Steve's back issue....
For an athlete like Nash, it can be even more debilitating. Any movement, any jump, even any step can aggravate the back, leading to an increase in the pain/spasm cycle. An inflammation inside the back that impinges or even irritates the nerve is going to accelerate rapidly with every stress, and the game of basketball creates an environment that subjects participants to those stresses.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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mnstrdnk
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | In a world where Lebron James commits to Dan Gilbert (over Pat Riley) and Carmelo Anthony commits to James Dolan (over Leslie Alexander, Jim Buss and Jerry Reisndorf), it is clear ownership does not really matter.
Two factors matter: 1) Roster and 2) Money. Any opinion that the Lakers' ownership (even with Love) is harming our ability to get free agents is just an example of reporters conveniently piling on. If the Lakers get back to a respectable roster, all the criticism will go away and the free agents will come back a runnin'. |
This makes the most sense |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | All this Jim Buss hate is completely unreasonable.. |
The inverse is true too. He hasn't done things to inspire confidence. We don't get the "hey everything will be fine" vibe.
The new clean-house, hate-anything-that-is-Phil hasn't been successful either. Worst Lakers record since they are in LA. Lost Dwight, our free agent all-star. Pau took a lesser salary to go to the Bulls.
Of course there's Nash. Wouldn't be nice to have someone on the Lakers staff who could evaluate Nash. Oh wait we did.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-buss-family-20140420-story.html#page=1
Jackson, in particular, found fault with giving Nash a three-year, $28-million contract and trading two first-round draft picks to acquire him in 2012 from Phoenix. Nash, 40, appeared in only 15 games this season because of chronic back pain.
"They took a flier on Nash that looked like it was going to be a really good thing," Jackson said. "Unfortunately, they didn't check with someone who had done therapy with the guy for the last 10 years, Alex McKechnie."
McKechnie was a physical therapist with the Lakers whose contract was not renewed in 2011. He now works for the Toronto Raptors and has conducted individual workouts with Nash and other NBA players in past off-seasons.
"They had cut ties with Alex, obviously, but still, Alex would have been a resource," Jackson said. "Steve has been hampered ever since that time and they kind of built the team around the way Steve plays." |
This is exactly the kind of completely bs potshot some of us complain about. Nash's problems in LA didn't stem from ongoing chronic back issues. They stemmed from the nerve damage caused by a fractured leg he suffered in a game as a laker. And the nerve damage issues have been something the finest physicians in the world can't fix.
Whether or not they kept on a physical therapist, or had the psychic ability to ask him if Nash would break his leg prior to it happening is silly, and another example of Jackson being extremely, transparently dishonest. |
And Phil also said that the reason Dwight left was because of Kobe, not Buss or any other reason. |
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Voices
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: |
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This Lakers team will win more games than last year team, real bold prediction, I know  but the fact that this team IMO Will be a very good rebounding team means more wins, and Scott will demand better defense also means more wins. Picking Randle was a safe pick, but it was also the right pick. Lakers management is not totally incompetent sometimes the obvious is the right move.
If Scott does what most of us expect this team will at least fight which means more wins as well. Was Scott the best available coach for the Lakers, I think so, especially under the circumstances.
I want to see a team that fights, rebounds and play's defense, if we get that most fans can tolerate some losses that are a little lopsided.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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NomisR
Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | About coaches, you're speaking as if Jerry West or Jerry Buss has never made mistakes on coaching hires. Remember, they brought in Magic and Kurt Rambus as the coach. That says plenty. |
Did they make 2 or 3 consecutive mistakes that immediately proved to be bad hires?
They went from a great coach in Riley to a coach who wound up doing a pretty good job in Dunleavy. They made a mistake with Magic, but it was the same sort of move that once led them to Riley (taking a chance on someone new without coaching expertise). Dunleavy took the Lakers back to the NBA Finals.
Del Harris is a fantastic assistant coach - I think people totally forget what type of team we were in the 90s. We were re-building. Del was cheap, he was an assistant/develop the players type, not a head coach who wins rings. I was a fan of Del at first because he did what he was supposed to. He helped Lakers re-build without any major issue. He was cheap. Perfect. We had so much young talent. When Shaq came in and Kobe became an all-star at 19, that's when Del was in over his head. So he rightfully lost his job. So is that really a bad hire? Hiring a guy that takes you from a 33 win team to a 50+ win team and then you fire him when he can't take you beyond 50+ wins to champion? And we gave Rambis what? 40 games as an interim in a lockout season? Right after Del was fired, you saw them replace him with Phil the next season. In fact hiring Rambis was one of the smartest things they did. You gave the fans a figure a token coach who was never in the long run plans unless something amazing happened. There wasn't a great head coach available right away, and when Phil was ready to come in the summer - they hired him. It was nothing like say hiring Mike D'Antoni after Mike Brown has failed the team. It was like keeping Bickerstaff to finish out the season and then get the right great coach in the summer.
So if you look at the timeline and what happened when each guy was hired, most of the time it yielded good results immediately (other than with Magic). It wasn't like Mike Brown to Mike D'Antoni to Byron Scott. It was Riley to Dunleavy (Dunleavys best job was in LA) to Magic to Del (Who did a very good job at first) to Rambis as interim to Phil. It wasn't ever truly hiring Magic on a longterm basis or Rambis. Both were more interim basis. And Rambis had the Lakers on what a 10 game win streak right away? Sure he wasn't head coach material but it was not like they hired someone on a longterm deal there. It was someone to finish out the season. Then summer comes - we get the greatest coach of all time.
The real coaches on longterm deals in the West era were Dunleavy, Harris and Phil. All of whom were outstanding hires at first. Don't believe me? Ask Dr Buss or read up on Dr Buss' opinion on the jobs those guys did in their first few years. Why is Dunleavy still considered everytime LA has a job opening? Because that's how good his job was back in the late 80's/early 90's.
Coaching in the NBA is all about having the players believe in you at the time and being the right fit. Brown and D'Antoni were 2 consecutively bad choices that cost LA dearly. In the West era there were coaches maybe worse than Brown/D'Antoni resume. But they fit what the immediate expectations and goals were. Del was brought in to re-build. Dunleavy was brought in to get Magic back to increase the pace and 1 or 2 last runs to the title. Phil was brought in to take a team that couldn't get over the top. Rambis was an interim - someone who wouldn't command longterm contract. All of these moves made sense immediately. The only true blunder was the Magic hire IMO which was corrected within a season. |
You forgot Randy Pfund who had almost the same record (66-80) as D'Antoni (67-87) and Rudy T who had a worse winning % (.558) than Mike Brown (.591). And maybe it's just me, but D'Antoni's (career .516) reminds me a lot of Dunleavy (career .461). During the 21 years between Riley's retirement and Phil's retirement 6 men were given a shot as head coach (not counting Bertka, Hamblen and Bickerstaff). We've seen two so far. |
And I think that people seem to forget that the last 2 seasons were a statistical anomaly. 319 games this season, 388 games the previous season. I'm not sure how accurate the data is for the historical numbers but i'm looking at an average of 100 or so per season while the past two years since the lockout, the numbers pretty much shot up.
And also comparing to the seasons of coaches that were mentioned, the teams were relatively healthy compared to our teams the past 2 years. And also lets not forget that Mike Brown had a lockout shortened season with no training camp, and Mike D'Antoni came into the first season without training camp as well. 2nd season without his star players but we remained slightly below .500 without Kobe, so if we maintain pace, we would've been a 40 win team. Of course, injuries hit over and over and over.. |
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NomisR
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Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| mnstrdnk wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | In a world where Lebron James commits to Dan Gilbert (over Pat Riley) and Carmelo Anthony commits to James Dolan (over Leslie Alexander, Jim Buss and Jerry Reisndorf), it is clear ownership does not really matter.
Two factors matter: 1) Roster and 2) Money. Any opinion that the Lakers' ownership (even with Love) is harming our ability to get free agents is just an example of reporters conveniently piling on. If the Lakers get back to a respectable roster, all the criticism will go away and the free agents will come back a runnin'. |
This makes the most sense |
Not to mention location for the above 2 players. Both players grew up in the area, with families in the area, and played in the area while growing up. And some people simply don't want to leave. Not hard to imagine. |
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clutchkobe
Star Player
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| clutchkobe wrote: | | so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
Patience.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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NomisR
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Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
Patience. |
Last 2 downturns, we went through them ok. First one, we actually had good supporting players and the team was built up that way after Magic left. The last one, we had a star with a bunch of scubs, and one trade gave us another star and back we are in contention. This time seems more similar to the 90s era rebuild, so it wasn't as depressing. |
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akgolf
Star Player
Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 1448
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
Patience. |
Yeah Yeah Yeah, Patience. How Long Will That Take?  |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
Patience. |
Agreed. But what's the 5 year roadmap here? Assuming we start from after Dwight left us (since the majority here, including me, but yes, not you, were happy about Dwight/Nash), 5 years from there, what's the plan?
To me it appears we will be going the Dallas route. Keep aging HOF, keep 1 max slot each summer in the hope that we can lure a star. If we miss out, then we continue doing what we did this summer I suppose. But apart from Durant, which transcendent player is out there (and available)?
Will the team at some point relent and build a team of solid players sans a HOF-level player?
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
Patience. |
Agreed. But what's the 5 year roadmap here? Assuming we start from after Dwight left us (since the majority here, including me, but yes, not you, were happy about Dwight/Nash), 5 years from there, what's the plan?
To me it appears we will be going the Dallas route. Keep aging HOF, keep 1 max slot each summer in the hope that we can lure a star. If we miss out, then we continue doing what we did this summer I suppose. But apart from Durant, which transcendent player is out there (and available)?
Will the team at some point relent and build a team of solid players sans a HOF-level player? |
I'm giving the front office 4-6 years after the d12 Nash saga. So from 2013 was where the rebuild started for me.
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Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | so jim buss has missed out on everyone so far. if kevin Durant goes to Washington.....the only other superstar coming up in the next two years might be derrick rose who might have a problem with Chicago....if this doesn't happen....we are out of luck....how long do laker fans go on like this? How long will they pay for high tickets when you have no confidence in management. I frankly don't see this picture getting any better in the next two or three years. Am I missing something? |
Patience. |
Don't have a choice. Without a franchise player or unless can get one it can take over 10 years if lucky to be contenders again.
That's why I chuckled to see Jim said he will step down after 3-4 years if things don't improve. He has to get a home run in the free agency.
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The journey to 17 begins... |
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