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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:24 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Dave20 wrote: | Vancouver Fan wrote: | Tanking is for losers. You play to win games period. | Every Laker fan wants to win but that's not possible with this roster. Were just realist, this roster is made up of cast offs and a star well past his prime coming off of 2 injuries. The writing is on the wall, the FO won't publicly say "we are tanking" but this is a roster that is made for it. Even more so then last year, Dantoni offense won us 5 games that we shouldn't have won. Byron is not known for his offense, defensively not much either. |
I'm not on Team Tank this year in 2015, but anti-tankers just don't get it do they? Tanking isn't about losing games. It's about winning games.
The only difference is that you're sacrificing wins today in the hope for more wins tomorrow. Makes total sense.
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That's a nice rationalization of why you do it, but doesn't support whether or not it actually works, or address the harm you do your team/brand in the process. Not to mention the incredibly poor odds related to tanking when you have to get to the fifth pick to even get the "reward", and you have a HOF with possibly something left in the tank (pun intended) on your team. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:39 am Post subject: |
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BTW, is the Houston 2015 1st rounder lotto protected?
I'd root for the Rox to tank more than the Lakers. |
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Xtreme Starting Rotation
Joined: 21 Jul 2014 Posts: 127
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I ain't buying no ILP if tanking is an option, but after seeing Scott's interview, I can assume that Lakers are not tanking next year. |
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Potato-Mania Star Player
Joined: 07 Nov 2012 Posts: 1244
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I was team tank last year but that was because I didn't think Kobe was gonna be back. Kobe at 100% to start the season this year, there is no way I can be on team tank. |
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Xtreme Starting Rotation
Joined: 21 Jul 2014 Posts: 127
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="24"] ringfinger wrote: | Dave20 wrote: | Vancouver Fan wrote: | Tanking is for losers. You play to win games period. | Every Laker fan wants to win but that's not possible with this roster. Were just realist, this roster is made up of cast offs and a star well past his prime coming off of 2 injuries. The writing is on the wall, the FO won't publicly say "we are tanking" but this is a roster that is made for it. Even more so then last year, Dantoni offense won us 5 games that we shouldn't have won. Byron is not known for his offense, defensively not much either. |
I'm not on Team Tank this year in 2015, but anti-tankers just don't get it do they? Tanking isn't about losing games. It's about winning games.
The only difference is that you're sacrificing wins today in the hope for more wins tomorrow. Makes total sense.
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My take is if you need to tank to get players, and get Championships , then this organization already failed, Cleveland got James, good 7 years of cheering, got nowhere and he left, not everybody is Spurs |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Dave20 wrote: | Vancouver Fan wrote: | Tanking is for losers. You play to win games period. | Every Laker fan wants to win but that's not possible with this roster. Were just realist, this roster is made up of cast offs and a star well past his prime coming off of 2 injuries. The writing is on the wall, the FO won't publicly say "we are tanking" but this is a roster that is made for it. Even more so then last year, Dantoni offense won us 5 games that we shouldn't have won. Byron is not known for his offense, defensively not much either. |
I'm not on Team Tank this year in 2015, but anti-tankers just don't get it do they? Tanking isn't about losing games. It's about winning games.
The only difference is that you're sacrificing wins today in the hope for more wins tomorrow. Makes total sense.
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That's a nice rationalization of why you do it, but doesn't support whether or not it actually works, or address the harm you do your team/brand in the process. Not to mention the incredibly poor odds related to tanking when you have to get to the fifth pick to even get the "reward", and you have a HOF with possibly something left in the tank (pun intended) on your team. |
The argument is whether or not the harm done by tanking is incrementally greater (and by how much) than the harm done by trying and just flat out sucking, but not sucking enough to get a good pick. What is the brand impact of finishing 9th in the West, versus 10th? Versus 12th? Didn't we just net out the single largest profit in team history with $100M? While what you're saying about brand impact makes sense, I'm not sure if the impact you think happens, actually happens the way you think it does. Make sense? In other words, I believe there is a latent effect before your brand takes any kind of noticeable hit. If you tank and get the next Lebron James and win the following season, you'd see a net positive YoY brand impact.
I mean, you'd rather finish 9th in a season and then 9th again, than finish 14th, get the next Lebron, and win the following season because of the brand impact when you finished 14th? That's silly. Again, think in the long term. Think beyond 1 season. It's hard to do, but if we can't think beyond 1 season, then I suppose you're right go absolutely balls out because this season is your last. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Xtreme"] 24 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Dave20 wrote: | Vancouver Fan wrote: | Tanking is for losers. You play to win games period. | Every Laker fan wants to win but that's not possible with this roster. Were just realist, this roster is made up of cast offs and a star well past his prime coming off of 2 injuries. The writing is on the wall, the FO won't publicly say "we are tanking" but this is a roster that is made for it. Even more so then last year, Dantoni offense won us 5 games that we shouldn't have won. Byron is not known for his offense, defensively not much either. |
I'm not on Team Tank this year in 2015, but anti-tankers just don't get it do they? Tanking isn't about losing games. It's about winning games.
The only difference is that you're sacrificing wins today in the hope for more wins tomorrow. Makes total sense.
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My take is if you need to tank to get players, and get Championships , then this organization already failed, Cleveland got James, good 7 years of cheering, got nowhere and he left, not everybody is Spurs |
LOL.
Not everybody is Cleveland. |
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Sportsmuze Star Player
Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 3779
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I was on team tank last year..
I really do not understand team tank for this year....
We were terrible last year because we did not have our superstar... it is the only reason we were bottom feeding/flirting with a top 5 pick.
Do people really expect we will do WORSE than last year WITH Kobe?
Not saying we are an lock for playoffs, but bottom 5?
That is closer to impossible than most things.
There is absolutely no chance of us being 5 or under this year. No chance. |
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pmacla Star Player
Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Posts: 7849 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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not trying to ruffle feathers or stir the pot but I fail to see why this thread is even on a Lakers FAN board if you are not rooting for the team to win then why even post here |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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2013-14 Team list based on Total Minutes played:
Code: | Player :: Games Played
Jodie Meeks :: 77
Wesley Johnson :: 79
Pau Gasol :: 60
Nick Young :: 64
Kendall Marshall :: 54
Jordan Hill :: 72
Ryan Kelly :: 59
Robert Sacre :: 65
Jordan Farmar :: 41
Xavier Henry :: 43
Steve Blake :: 27
Shawne Williams :: 36
Chris Kaman :: 39
Kent Bazemore :: 23
Steve Nash :: 15
MarShon Brooks :: 18
Manny Harris :: 09
Kobe Bryant :: 06
Elias Harris :: 02
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Our top 11 contributing players:
Jodie Meeks
Wesley Johnson
Pau Gasol
Nick Young
Kendall Marshall
Jordan Hill
Ryan Kelly
Robert Sacre
Jordan Farmar/Xavier Henry (counted as 1 guy as they played half a season each)
Steve Blake/Kent Bazemore (counted as 1 guy as Blake was traded for Baze)
Shawne Williams/Chris Kaman (counted as 1 guy as they played half a season each)
Wow, I didn't realize that Shawn Williams and Chris Kaman played less than half a season each.
Now if healthy (and that's a big IF), here's how we match up with last year's squad:
Code: | 2013-14 :: 2014-15
Jodie Meeks :: Kobe Bryant
Wesley Johnson :: Wesley Johnson
Pau Gasol :: Carlos Boozer
Nick Young :: Nick Young
Kendall Marshall :: Jeremy Lin
Jordan Hill :: Jordan Hill
Ryan Kelly :: Ryan Kelly
Robert Sacre :: Robert Sacre
Farmar/Henry :: Xavier Henry
Blake/Bazemore :: Julius Randle
Williams/Kaman :: Ed Davis
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I know that combining Williams/Kaman and Farmar/Henry isn't a fair comparison as they've played at the same time. However, just looking at the side by sides, I've gotta think we've improved in personnel.
And add the fact that Coach Scott is focusing on defense makes me very excited about this upcoming year. Can't see this team tanking. Unless health issues arise. But again, that means we have to play the games before pre-tanking before the season even starts.
Go Lakers!!! |
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NomisR Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 471
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Not to mention last year's team was a .500 team prior to Kobe coming back and getting hurt. With Kobe and an improved team, maybe we can get 50 wins! |
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LakerLand247 Star Player
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 Posts: 4809
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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No to team tank this year. I'm not impress with the kids coming out of next years draft class and plus Kobe seems healthy.
No to the tank. |
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LaxT Star Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2002 Posts: 2536
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fansincemagic Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 11048
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:03 am Post subject: |
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Ugh, "tanking" on a Kobe team doesn't happen. When he was hurt last year and all was realistically lost, that term was just a nice way of being optimistic about the upside of a high pick instead of being miserable over their record. Say what you want about how Kobe came back, but his plan is to win every time he steps on the court.
If we're going to be optimistic for something, how bout we channel all that "tank" energy into being optimistic that Kobe is actually healthy and we get to enjoy his last few years. Use it on hoping the role players and castoffs come together and do something special. For those that want to beat Phoenix and steal the pick back with a terrible season, what does that consist of? Do you want Kobe to be hurt? Even then, can this team actually be worse than last year and more importantly can they compete if you will, with teams that actually "tank". Whats the fun in rooting against your team all year if they just end up with the 6th pick again...going to Phoenix this time. Just root to win, if they fall short of an 8th seed maybe they send Joey and get the Cleveland treatment. |
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Krispy Kreme Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 12252
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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_________________ Dominating every day. |
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Shaqman55 Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 315
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:50 am Post subject: |
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No to the tank this season:
1. Will Kobe sit out the whole season again? If not, there's no way we are getting a bottom 5 record... Phoenix owns the pick otherwise.
2. No franchise level talent in the draft.
3. It will be very ugly situation and top free agents are looking for teams on an upswing, not a down trend _________________ RIP Kobe and Gigi <333 |
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King Randle Star Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2014 Posts: 7313
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: |
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No tank this season. This team can win anywhere from 42-48 games, depending on health.
I was a huge supporter last year for team tank cuz we had the worst coach in the league that brought in a losing culture. There was absolutely no way we could win with that moron. Team tank ended the day MDA was gone. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01 Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001 Posts: 1703
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Let's hope this thread becomes obsolete by October and doesn't get bumped during the season.
Think we all know the only way this team could be in the bottom five, and no Laker fan could hope for that. |
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BROW GOAT 23 Star Player
Joined: 13 Jun 2010 Posts: 2763 Location: Puerto Rico
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Reporting for TANK part Deux!!! _________________ |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
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pmacla wrote: | not trying to ruffle feathers or stir the pot but I fail to see why this thread is even on a Lakers FAN board if you are not rooting for the team to win then why even post here |
Well, it's ultimately about winning in the long term versus the short term.
For instance, if Kobe were to pick up two early fouls in the first quarter, I would say "ok coach, pull Kobe out please". I suppose that could be spun as me rooting for the team to lose since anyone you put in to replace him isn't going to be as good. But you do it because even though it might put you in a deficit, it would be better to have Kobe playing foul trouble free for quarters 2-4 and so even though you want Kobe out of the game, you're still trying to win.
So similar thing with team tank. What's better for the team? To miss the playoffs and get a mid 1st round pick? Or miss the playoffs and get a top 5 pick?
At any rate, for me, this is my criteria for team tank:
- There must be a reasonably available draft pick
- I have to believe the team isn't going to win a championship
- I have to believe the team is likely going to miss the playoffs
- The team/roster does not have an evolving core.
I should also add that players never go out and intentionally lose IMO since there is no real incentive for them to do that. So the right way to tank, is to clear bad contracts, clear big contracts, give minutes to younger guys who need experience to build on for the upcoming seasons.
That all said, I am NOT on team tank for the upcoming season. Mainly because we don't have a guaranteed draft pick and even with an achilles tear and old age, Kobe alone is too good to allow the team to be bad enough to guarantee a pick. Now, if something happens to Kobe and he is out for the season again very early on, I might change my tune.
In either case, I only have one goal for this team this year. Develop the young guys (particularly Clarkson and Randle). |
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Killakobe81 Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 1604
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:46 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | pmacla wrote: | not trying to ruffle feathers or stir the pot but I fail to see why this thread is even on a Lakers FAN board if you are not rooting for the team to win then why even post here |
Well, it's ultimately about winning in the long term versus the short term.
For instance, if Kobe were to pick up two early fouls in the first quarter, I would say "ok coach, pull Kobe out please". I suppose that could be spun as me rooting for the team to lose since anyone you put in to replace him isn't going to be as good. But you do it because even though it might put you in a deficit, it would be better to have Kobe playing foul trouble free for quarters 2-4 and so even though you want Kobe out of the game, you're still trying to win.
So similar thing with team tank. What's better for the team? To miss the playoffs and get a mid 1st round pick? Or miss the playoffs and get a top 5 pick?
At any rate, for me, this is my criteria for team tank:
- There must be a reasonably available draft pick
- I have to believe the team isn't going to win a championship
- I have to believe the team is likely going to miss the playoffs
- The team/roster does not have an evolving core.
I should also add that players never go out and intentionally lose IMO since there is no real incentive for them to do that. So the right way to tank, is to clear bad contracts, clear big contracts, give minutes to younger guys who need experience to build on for the upcoming seasons.
That all said, I am NOT on team tank for the upcoming season. Mainly because we don't have a guaranteed draft pick and even with an achilles tear and old age, Kobe alone is too good to allow the team to be bad enough to guarantee a pick. Now, if something happens to Kobe and he is out for the season again very early on, I might change my tune.
In either case, I only have one goal for this team this year. Develop the young guys (particularly Clarkson and Randle). |
Mostly this. I will not root for us to lose but I see (and root for) the best case scenario for us. Which I believe is:
We improve by 10-15 plus games but still miss the playoffs. Much like PHX and CLE last year. Hopefully like Cavs, we get lucky and win lottery. That way we would be better than last year's brutal laughing stock season but still net us a good asset for the long term. Making the playoffs and getting swept like two seasons ago would bring me no joy either. The best part of THAT season was the Lakers push to "make it in" and the run Kobe was on. We can still have that miss the playoffs and accomplish the desired goal (I assume its the goal of the thread) and get another great young talent on a cheap contract. We all win. I wont openly root against Byron or Kobe to fail. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Tanking is what we should do from a longterm POV. We need talent. Tanking last year meant Randle, who will likely be a 15/9 PF in this league (At least).
Then you factor the Lakers don't really have an attractive situation for FA stars who they pursue. Where did Dwight go? To a young HOU team with a young star in Harden and lots of other assets they can trade to get better around them. Where did LBJ go? Young team with Irving, Wiggins (who may be traded to get Love). You see a trend? Guys aren't going to teams on a decline or in maturity stage. They're going to the teams with a huge growth stage expected.
Lakers are much better poised to be that growth team by tanking another year and getting a top 5 prospect to pair with Randle than being somehwere between 10th and 8th in the West and having no longterm talent added. Think by 2016, where the Lakers would be with Randle and that 2015 lotto pick? You'd have a situation that was much more attractive to a KD or whomever. You'd have more impact talent to trade for an all-star in Randle/2015 draft pick.
But it's just not realistic with the roster they've put together. It won't happen, and isn't practical with how they operate as a business. However those who vehemently argue that it's wrong or something crazy, I'd say they aren't looking at 2016 or beyond and how mediocre the future looks right now. I love Kobe, but Kobe scoring 25 ppg on a 40 win team isn't my goal as a Lakers fan. I rather watch Kobe score 22 ppg (playing less minutes) on a 20 win team and get a great draft pick. I don't think this is about Kobe as much as it's from a business sense. Lakers have never had 2 consecutive lottery seasons in LA. They're going to do everything in their power to avoid that. The tough part is that while they're trying their best to put forth a good competitive team with signing Boozer, Hill, Young, Lin etc. there's still a very strong change they finish late lottery (12-14) and miss the pick. If you ask me, I much rather see this team lose 60 games and get a top 5 pick vs losing 35-42 games and winding up with no pick, no real playoff run. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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The crazy hope is that we push for playoffs and if we miss, get into the lottery and somehow pull a Clev. (circa 2014) and get a top pick or top 3 pick. Not impossible but man, imagine the karma if we try to make the playoffs, miss, and get rewarded with say Okafor or Townes. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Gimme_the_rock Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 11882 Location: Looking outta the window, watching the asphalt grow ...
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | The crazy hope is that we push for playoffs and if we miss, get into the lottery and somehow pull a Clev. (circa 2014) and get a top pick or top 3 pick. Not impossible but man, imagine the karma if we try to make the playoffs, miss, and get rewarded with say Okafor or Townes. |
I guess it depends on which: Emeka or Jahlil? _________________ We back. |
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Dave20 Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 Posts: 11333
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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That is what some of the anti tankers don't get, we don't need to have a top 2 worst record in the league to get a top 5 pick. I think we have a good chance as long as were one of the worst 7 teams in the league, which is possible.
All it takes is one ping pong ball to fall in our favor. Mudiay, Okafor, Stanley Johnson, and Townes are 4 elite prospects that are worth trying to keep that pick. Hopefully, Randle and Clarkson develop as rookies and were in position to get one of the top prospects. |
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