California's Death Penalty Struck Down
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Laker Lover
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.



With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes. See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional. You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


I understand how you feel, and if my family member was the victim, I would feel the same way. Which is exactly why I oppose the death penalty. Inflicting suffering on an offender only has value to the degree that it stops further offenses. And it doesn't. By any measurable standard. In fact, inflicting suffering strictly as payback for the crime increases violence. It is atavistic, and puts society in the same level as the offender. The very reasons I would want someone to suffer for hurting my family are the best arguments against it.


The punishment of the criminal must be greater than the punishment the family of the victim has to go through, that would be justice to me. Jail or even the death penalty is not more punishment than the punishment the family is taking on because of the crime. Family and criminal both lose their freedom after the crime in a sense. Thats not enough justice to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject:

Roger O. Thornhill wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
If they float they're guilty, if they sink they're innocent. Why did we go away from this system?


Because black people can't swim?


Jimmy The Greek ova heeah.

When Richard Ramirez wound up dying of natural causes that were possibly exacerbated by years in lockup, I figured the death penalty system was too ineffective to rely on as a punishment even for those who actually believe it's a deterrent (with all the debate related to that argument). When -that- guy in particular doesn't meet his end on a lethal injection table, something's amiss.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.


With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes.


I wish my friends and family were as immune to crime as you'd like to believe. I wish I wasn't able to know what the shoes feel like. But I do.

The idea that anyone who disagrees with your views on the subject must not know the pain that comes from violent crime is not only ignorant, it is also not supported by the views and actions of many, many people who know the anguish of violent crime all too well.

Quote:
See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional.


No, delusion is thinking that resorting to lowering yourself to to the worst of baser instincts is actually going to achieve anything, much less compensate for anything. Personal anguish is not a license to engage in the same kind of reprehensible behavior that you condemn.

Quote:
You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


Whether it flies with you is the besides the point. It's not a "high road" nor is it simply being politically correct. It's a matter of decency and humanity.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:01 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.


With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes.


I wish my friends and family were as immune to crime as you'd like to believe. I wish I wasn't able to know what the shoes feel like. But I do.

The idea that anyone who disagrees with your views on the subject must not know the pain that comes from violent crime is not only ignorant, it is also not supported by the views and actions of many, many people who know the anguish of violent crime all too well.

Quote:
See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional.


No, delusion is thinking that resorting to lowering yourself to to the worst of baser instincts is actually going to achieve anything, much less compensate for anything. Personal anguish is not a license to engage in the same kind of reprehensible behavior that you condemn.

Quote:
You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


Whether it flies with you is the besides the point. It's not a "high road" nor is it simply being politically correct. It's a matter of decency and humanity.


You mention decency, humanity and antisocial behavior. None of which was shown to the victim, yet this is your main concern. Laughable.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject:

You have arrogant gang members who don't give a rats ass about the crime they committed. But hey lets punish them by giving them a place to live, food and drink and not have to worry about anything else. What a joke. Thats not justice. The families are punished way worse.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject:

Taking someones freedom doesn't compensate for the families loss, so justice is not served. If criminal can't compensate, then he should be tortured. Torture inflicts anguish, agony, pain, worry, all the things families of the victim feel. Sitting in a jail cell, big flipping deal.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
The punishment of the criminal must be greater than the punishment the family of the victim has to go through, that would be justice to me. Jail or even the death penalty is not more punishment than the punishment the family is taking on because of the crime. Family and criminal both lose their freedom after the crime in a sense. Thats not enough justice to me.


You are completely entitled to your thoughts in that regard. Those emotions are valid and understandable. But that's the essence of it. They are emotions. Implementing policy based on those emotions accomplishes nothing other than to lower oneself to same reprehensible footing with the very people you condemn.

Emotions are actually at the core of most violent crime - anger, jealousy, contempt. That's why emotions need to be removed from the search for justice. Justice is about honor and correctness. There is nothing honorable or correct about feeding the cycle of violence and destruction. Any attempt at a justice that is determined by emotion is not justice - it's just revenge.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.



With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes. See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional. You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


As some have said....what if they arent guilty? You dont want that on your hands. Let me add though, that what i think DMR is trying to get at is that lets say you allow the torture of these people. Who does the torturing? What sick (bleep) took that job and hasnt landed there himself already? If you let the family do it, just imagine the emotional trauma you can cause on a person who otherwise would never be violent. You cant feed peoples appetite for revenge. It just leads to more revenge. Crips vs Bloods comes to mind. The damage done in your scenario will always be equal to or greater than the original offense imo.

Personally id like to see us get rid of the death penalty but at least get value out of these people somehow. We pay way way too much per inmate as it is for almost 0 return. Private prisons have them making all sorts of stuff right now, but that only helps the for profit privatized prisons. Id like to see us get something back for all that money we spend keeping them alive year after year. Why not put em on state and federal infrastructure jobs? Ground work is HARD work.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
Taking someones freedom doesn't compensate for the families loss, so justice is not served. If criminal can't compensate, then he should be tortured. Torture inflicts anguish, agony, pain, worry, all the things families of the victim feel. Sitting in a jail cell, big flipping deal.


Nothing does. That's the point.

Justice has nothing to do with compensation. There is no "compensation". The attempt to inflict all of those things on the perpetrator doesn't compensate for anything. What you espouse doesn't change anything. The loss is still there. The pain is still there. There's no compensating for that. And definitely not engaging in the same kind of mindset that lead to the horror in the first place.

Nothing you have described as "justice" has anything to do with the term. You are just describing base behavior that is on the same level of the criminals.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.


With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes.


I wish my friends and family were as immune to crime as you'd like to believe. I wish I wasn't able to know what the shoes feel like. But I do.

The idea that anyone who disagrees with your views on the subject must not know the pain that comes from violent crime is not only ignorant, it is also not supported by the views and actions of many, many people who know the anguish of violent crime all too well.

Quote:
See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional.


No, delusion is thinking that resorting to lowering yourself to to the worst of baser instincts is actually going to achieve anything, much less compensate for anything. Personal anguish is not a license to engage in the same kind of reprehensible behavior that you condemn.

Quote:
You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


Whether it flies with you is the besides the point. It's not a "high road" nor is it simply being politically correct. It's a matter of decency and humanity.


You mention decency, humanity and antisocial behavior. None of which was shown to the victim, yet this is your main concern. Laughable.


Of course it wasn't. And that's the point. The point of justice is to correct the wrongs. Not to further them by engaging in the same behavior.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:00 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
Taking someones freedom doesn't compensate for the families loss, so justice is not served. If criminal can't compensate, then he should be tortured. Torture inflicts anguish, agony, pain, worry, all the things families of the victim feel. Sitting in a jail cell, big flipping deal.


What you are basically advocating is for revenge. Sounds great in principle, unless you have the wrong person.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Taking someones freedom doesn't compensate for the families loss, so justice is not served. If criminal can't compensate, then he should be tortured. Torture inflicts anguish, agony, pain, worry, all the things families of the victim feel. Sitting in a jail cell, big flipping deal.


Nothing does. That's the point.

Justice has nothing to do with compensation. There is no "compensation". The attempt to inflict all of those things on the perpetrator doesn't compensate for anything. What you espouse doesn't change anything. The loss is still there. The pain is still there. There's no compensating for that. And definitely not engaging in the same kind of mindset that lead to the horror in the first place.

Nothing you have described as "justice" has anything to do with the term. You are just describing base behavior that is on the same level of the criminals.


Value for value. What is inflicted on the soul of the victims family must be inflicted on the criminal. That wouldn't even be justice, it would be equality, which would be a starting point for the criminals punishment. Sitting in a jail cell, being sheltered, taking care for, adding to the cost of tax payers, is such a joke, really, a joke of a punishment.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:36 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.


With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes.


I wish my friends and family were as immune to crime as you'd like to believe. I wish I wasn't able to know what the shoes feel like. But I do.

The idea that anyone who disagrees with your views on the subject must not know the pain that comes from violent crime is not only ignorant, it is also not supported by the views and actions of many, many people who know the anguish of violent crime all too well.

Quote:
See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional.


No, delusion is thinking that resorting to lowering yourself to to the worst of baser instincts is actually going to achieve anything, much less compensate for anything. Personal anguish is not a license to engage in the same kind of reprehensible behavior that you condemn.

Quote:
You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


Whether it flies with you is the besides the point. It's not a "high road" nor is it simply being politically correct. It's a matter of decency and humanity.


You mention decency, humanity and antisocial behavior. None of which was shown to the victim, yet this is your main concern. Laughable.


Of course it wasn't. And that's the point. The point of justice is to correct the wrongs. Not to further them by engaging in the same behavior.


Believe me, when word gets out, it will deter criminals SIGNIFICANTLY.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject:

We could take a poll of every single criminal for all offenses and ask them if the punishment went through their minds before they committed the crime.. What do you think the NO percentage will be? Huge is my guess...

Criminals don't say "Hey Jimmy did you see house bill xyz.. Says if we do this crime they will do xxxxx to us"

Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere

Thank you California!

But now all the murderers will move to California
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:15 pm    Post subject:

Put the worst of the worst on an island together, away from civilized society.

They have to live off the land. No modern conveniences or weapons. They can have whatever they can craft.

Oh.... and we have to be humane and give them animals that they can hunt for food.

You know... like tigers, lions, bears, hyenas, hippos, etc...

Or even better, if it could also serve as a science lab where we try to make a real Jurassic Park.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:18 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.


With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes.


I wish my friends and family were as immune to crime as you'd like to believe. I wish I wasn't able to know what the shoes feel like. But I do.

The idea that anyone who disagrees with your views on the subject must not know the pain that comes from violent crime is not only ignorant, it is also not supported by the views and actions of many, many people who know the anguish of violent crime all too well.

Quote:
See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional.


No, delusion is thinking that resorting to lowering yourself to to the worst of baser instincts is actually going to achieve anything, much less compensate for anything. Personal anguish is not a license to engage in the same kind of reprehensible behavior that you condemn.

Quote:
You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


Whether it flies with you is the besides the point. It's not a "high road" nor is it simply being politically correct. It's a matter of decency and humanity.


You mention decency, humanity and antisocial behavior. None of which was shown to the victim, yet this is your main concern. Laughable.


Of course it wasn't. And that's the point. The point of justice is to correct the wrongs. Not to further them by engaging in the same behavior.


Believe me, when word gets out, it will deter criminals SIGNIFICANTLY.


No, it won't. Crime, particularly violent crime, tends not to be a rational act, it's often an act of desperation or passion. A guy who stabs or shoots his wife/gf because he thinks she's cheating on him isn't weighing the pros and cons of the act. Someone who shoots another guy or beats the crap out of someone else because an argument got too heated isn't thinking rationally, he's seeing red. There have been many studies that have shown that more dire consequences, after a certain point, have zero effect on crime deterrence. Some studies actually show an opposite effect, where zero tolerance or extremely harsh punishment can make criminals even more violent, since there is a "(bleep) it" effect where the guy knows he's boned anyways so "who cares?" now.
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Laker Lover
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.


With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes.


I wish my friends and family were as immune to crime as you'd like to believe. I wish I wasn't able to know what the shoes feel like. But I do.

The idea that anyone who disagrees with your views on the subject must not know the pain that comes from violent crime is not only ignorant, it is also not supported by the views and actions of many, many people who know the anguish of violent crime all too well.

Quote:
See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional.


No, delusion is thinking that resorting to lowering yourself to to the worst of baser instincts is actually going to achieve anything, much less compensate for anything. Personal anguish is not a license to engage in the same kind of reprehensible behavior that you condemn.

Quote:
You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.


Whether it flies with you is the besides the point. It's not a "high road" nor is it simply being politically correct. It's a matter of decency and humanity.


You mention decency, humanity and antisocial behavior. None of which was shown to the victim, yet this is your main concern. Laughable.


Of course it wasn't. And that's the point. The point of justice is to correct the wrongs. Not to further them by engaging in the same behavior.


Believe me, when word gets out, it will deter criminals SIGNIFICANTLY.


No, it won't. Crime, particularly violent crime, tends not to be a rational act, it's often an act of desperation or passion. A guy who stabs or shoots his wife/gf because he thinks she's cheating on him isn't weighing the pros and cons of the act. Someone who shoots another guy or beats the crap out of someone else because an argument got too heated isn't thinking rationally, he's seeing red. There have been many studies that have shown that more dire consequences, after a certain point, have zero effect on crime deterrence. Some studies actually show an opposite effect, where zero tolerance or extremely harsh punishment can make criminals even more violent, since there is a "(bleep) it" effect where the guy knows he's boned anyways so "who cares?" now.


There's guys like the night stalker who should have been atleast tazed twice a day, and give him the option of being mased instead a certain day twice and maybe waterboarded once a week. Let him look forward to that for the rest of his life. Instead we heard his nonsense in interviews.

3 stories come to mind of senseless murders of people I know, none were related, all involved gang members. I'm not talking about cases of examples you mentioned. Some crimes are clear cut, evidence is overwhelming, criminals that brag about their crimes or show no remorse. Those that deserve no mercy or sympathy. Time to rough them up. Change their attitude, humble them a bit. They deserve it.
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Tark the Shark
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
Put the worst of the worst on an island together, away from civilized society.

They have to live off the land. No modern conveniences or weapons. They can have whatever they can craft.

Oh.... and we have to be humane and give them animals that they can hunt for food.

You know... like tigers, lions, bears, hyenas, hippos, etc...

Or even better, if it could also serve as a science lab where we try to make a real Jurassic Park.


Some great ideas.

Just let them start their own society and rape, rob and murder each other. Then, when we need to run some scientific experiments, we can pluck a few of them off the island. To top it off, we can have a Hunger Games type contest that's on TV.

These people are useless to society and most can't be reformed anyways. I could care less about what we do with rapists and murderers.
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Kobeskillz
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:00 am    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.



With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


I agree with you man. Some of these scum kill or rape innocent people and shatter countless lives and then they go to prison and get meals handed to them and do less than half their time and get out and repeat the process. All rapist should have a bucket strapped to their crouch with rats inside and then have the bucket heated up with fire.

Yeah attack me all you want people but these scum deserve the worst fate imaginable. I hope they burn in hell.
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:35 am    Post subject:

Tark the Shark wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
Put the worst of the worst on an island together, away from civilized society.

They have to live off the land. No modern conveniences or weapons. They can have whatever they can craft.

Oh.... and we have to be humane and give them animals that they can hunt for food.

You know... like tigers, lions, bears, hyenas, hippos, etc...

Or even better, if it could also serve as a science lab where we try to make a real Jurassic Park.


Some great ideas.

Just let them start their own society and sexual assault, rob and murder each other. Then, when we need to run some scientific experiments, we can pluck a few of them off the island. To top it off, we can have a Hunger Games type contest that's on TV.

These people are useless to society and most can't be reformed anyways. I could care less about what we do with rapists and murderers.


I gotta be honest. I just want video of humans vs wild powerful animal fights.

If the humans won I'd be like, "Take that wild animal! You just got owned by humans!"

And if the animal won I'd be like, "Take that scumbag murdering rapist! You got what you deserved!"

It's a win-win
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject:

I'm sometime amazed and dismayed by those who want to return to the days of the guillotine. Barbarism has never been a deterrent.

I disagree with those who think it would give joy or closure to families of victims to see perpetrators suffer. IMM that would only prolong the suffering of the families affected.

How can people want to be a part of something they appall when practiced by other countries?
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
dvdrdiscs wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
Heres my perspective. The person who commited the crime and done it with malicious intent should feel the same agony the victim or relatives of the victim are feeling. Death diesnt inflict any emotional pain. Neither does sitting in a jail cell. I propose torture. Thats the only way the criminal will feel the agony the victims are feeling. Jail time doesnt deter crime. But when word gets out that torture in jail awaits them during their sentence, i think it would make idiots think twice. I would only consider torture for major crimes like murder. Death sentence is weak.



With death and torture, you always run the risk of being wrong. In a perfect society, our justice department would follow the proper procedures in order to ensure those who are convicted are 100% guilty. But you know how that goes. Imagine torturing someone or killing them, then finding out his conviction was based on fabricated or false evidence. Oooh boy. You don't want that on your hands.

End the war on drugs, free up resources, and just incarcerate these people for life.


You have a point there but lets say he even confesses to doing the crime and/or has no remorse while family of the victim suffers. And to dmrs point of not working, even if it doesnt deter, i still think torture would be the right punishment.


Lowering oneself to vile behavior simply out of a desire for revenge is far from the right punishment.


Its not revenge, its justice. Everyone else works for food and shelter and the criminal gets it handed to him for free and that seems like punishment to you. I disagree.


No. It's revenge, and bloodthirsty revenge at that. No attempts to spin it as "justice" will change that. Feeding the cycle of violence by supporting torture isn't remotely justice. It's simply engaging in more antisocial behavior. Prison is far more than just "3 hots and a cot" - to think differently is naive at best.


I doubt you or anyone of your loved ones has gone through what some of these criminals have put victims through. Its apparent you can't put yourself in other peoples shoes. See these victims souls go through pain, anguish, suffering, children who lose their financial support, love, affection, soo much is taken from them. Now if its possible for you to put yourself in that perspective and think jail is enough and that is justice and makes up for the killing, then you are delusional. You taking the high road or trying to look politically correct doesn't fly with me.



So, when I was 11, my 18 Y.O brother was murdered execution style. I know what it did to him and what it did to my family. I would have no problem with taking out the two grown men who did it him. But I don't support the death penalty because I don't think the State should be killing it's citizens, because the process is racially biased and because the burden of proof isn't sufficient, which is why so many on death row have been exonerated.
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Steve007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
California's death penalty system is so plagued by inordinate and unpredictable delay that the death sentence is actually carried out against only a trivial few of those sentenced to death," Carney writes. "For all practical purposes then, a sentence of death in California is a sentence of life imprisonment with the remote possibility of death -- a sentence no rational legislature or jury could ever impose."


He is right about the part in bold, and that's why I almost feel like there is no death penalty in states like California (and almost every other state in the country). With the way it's carried out, why would a criminal be deterred by it? He isn't likely to be executed anyway, and even if it happens it will be decades away.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject:

State sanctioned torture will never fly with the mainstream American public. We already saw what happened when we tried to waterboard the terrorists. Not to mention its a violation of the 8th amendment of the US Constitution. Locking up guys for life is probably the most cost effective punishment these days considering how long it takes to actually execute somebody in California. Now if it was Texas or Florida that would be a different story.
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Laker Lover
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject:

Anyone watch Locked Up, Raw on MSNBC?

These guys in prison still acting like idiots. Nothing a little bit of torture here and there can't help fix.

I like the episodes when cops use the chemicals to extract an inmate who doesn't want to leave his cell, or shoot at them with huge pellets. Works great.
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