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Tark the Shark
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Joined: 07 May 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Buck32 wrote: | Everyone knows either the separatists or their masters the Russians did it. They will keep on denying this till the end.
The Americans must also know this. They have satellites with which they can see from where the missiles were fired. I think they're biding their time.
At most the families will get an apology, but admitting a mistake is not exactly a Russian trait.
Nothing good will come out of this for the families of the victims. |
The rebel were caught on tape admitting they made a mistake LINK |
This was likely a tragic mistake although the western media is trying to spin it politically into something more. We got the opposite western media spin with Iran Air 655 many years ago.
The pro-Russian rebels and Russia had nothing to gain by taking down a passenger plane. The victims have been reduced to pawns in a global political struggle. |
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Kazaam
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Ah, it was a just a Mistake???? Oh FFS, give these guys more weapons then and tell them to carry on.
FML |
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Tark the Shark
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Kazaam wrote: | Ah, it was a just a Mistake???? Oh FFS, give these guys more weapons then and tell them to carry on.
FML |
You're really naive if you don't think the CIA sponsors rebel groups as well.
Regardless of where the weapons came from and who launched the missiles, it is highly likely that it was a disastrous mistake. Putin is not stupid and he would not want his army or pro-Russian rebels shooting civilian aircraft out of the sky. The media and governments on both sides are trying to politicize a deadly error. The Russians trying to cover it up and the US trying to use it for political leverage. It sucks for the victims and their families that this is being done. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Tark the Shark wrote: | | Kazaam wrote: | Ah, it was a just a Mistake???? Oh FFS, give these guys more weapons then and tell them to carry on.
FML |
You're really naive if you don't think the CIA sponsors rebel groups as well.
Regardless of where the weapons came from and who launched the missiles, it is highly likely that it was a disastrous mistake. Putin is not stupid and he would not want his army or pro-Russian rebels shooting civilian aircraft out of the sky. The media and governments on both sides are trying to politicize a deadly error. The Russians trying to cover it up and the US trying to use it for political leverage. It sucks for the victims and their families that this is being done. |
It was a virtual certainty that shooting down a civilian craft was a mistake - the apparent tapes certainly indicate that those who shot the plane down had assumed it was a cargo plane. Putin has everything to lose and nothing to gain by targeting civilian craft.
Which is what makes the refusal to acknowledge the mistake and the responsibility for it so ridiculous. Politically it would be much wiser to acknowledge what everyone knows - separatists backed by Russia miscalculated and shot down a civilian craft that had entered airspace they view as part of a battle zone. Putin should have put himself and Russia out in front of this from the get go and worked with the Dutch and Malaysia to ease the pain and drama of this tragedy.
Playing this game of place the blame is only going to go poorly for him and make this a much larger and worse issue for Russia than it would have been to just step up and make amends. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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The shooting down of the plane was obviously a mistake. Not taking responsibility only adds to the tragedy.
The downing of the craft was a mistake that can't be corrected, the handing of the bodies can.
Not showing respect for the deceased, stealing and using their credit cards, is only piling on to the catastrophe. In my eyes that makes Russia look bad. It gives the impression they have no control over the rebels they're backing.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Last edited by jodeke on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tark the Shark
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Regarding US response to Iran Air 655
| Quote: | | The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[7] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[25][26] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | The shooting down of the plane was obviously a mistake. Not taking responsibility only adds to the tragedy.
The downing of the craft was a mistake that can't be corrected, the handing of the bodies can.
Not showing respect for the deceased, stealing and using their credit cards, is only piling on to the tragedy. In my eyes that makes Russia look bad. It gives the impression they have no control over the rebels they're backing. |
Nobody ever does have control over the rebels they back. Rebels don't align with their backers over a common ground and respect. They do so out of selfish convenience. |
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K28
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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I think it was most likely a mistake, but the crime is in the aftermath. From the lack of access to the crash site to the looting of the bodies - reports of cell phones and credit cards being stolen. Seriously....who the (bleep) are these pieces of human trash?
The Russians are also trying to cover up how much material aid they are giving the rebels. |
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K28
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Tark the Shark wrote: | Regarding US response to Iran Air 655
| Quote: | | The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[7] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[25][26] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 |
Bush Sr. was another scumbag piece of (bleep). |
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Buck32
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Tark the Shark wrote: | | Kazaam wrote: | Ah, it was a just a Mistake???? Oh FFS, give these guys more weapons then and tell them to carry on.
FML |
You're really naive if you don't think the CIA sponsors rebel groups as well.
Regardless of where the weapons came from and who launched the missiles, it is highly likely that it was a disastrous mistake. Putin is not stupid and he would not want his army or pro-Russian rebels shooting civilian aircraft out of the sky. The media and governments on both sides are trying to politicize a deadly error. The Russians trying to cover it up and the US trying to use it for political leverage. It sucks for the victims and their families that this is being done. |
The longer Russia denies everything the more Ukraine and the West will milk this. And if it were Russians who pulled the trigger ( a few drunken, untrained militiamen are not capable of operating a SAM missile launcher) then they will never, ever admit it. The moment they admit it, the next thing the world will expect them to stop all support to the separatists.
But the Russians see themselves as the protector of all Slavs in Eastern Europe. They went to war in 1914 to protect the Serbs, and the reason the Yugoslavian civil war dragged on for so long is partly to their unconditional support for Serbia. And these are ethnic Russians in Ukraine we're talking about here.
I just wish the West, especially the EU, would just leave these Eastern European countries by themselves. No point in getting them to join the EU because they're not contributing anything to the EU and will just be a economic burden on the other Western countries. And they always have these century-old blood feuds and it's always just a matter of time before they start killing each other.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
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LINK
Russia's Military Tells A Very Different Story About What Happened To MH17
| Quote: | The Russian military took accusations a bit further Monday, hinting at some strange speculations. The spokesman asked: "Is it a coincidence that the time of the MH17 crash is the same as a U.S. satellite flew over Ukraine?"
Basically, Russia is suggesting that a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter plane shot down MH17. |
It's time to put the blame game to bed. It's pretty clear who's responsible for the downing of MH17. Who dunnit is irrelevant. Now's the time to console the living.
LINK
Donetsk militia put MH17 bodies on train amidst concerns over intl experts’ absence
The shooting down of a civilian aircraft is bad enough, how they're disrespecting the dead is disturbing and disgusting.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Tark the Shark wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Buck32 wrote: | Everyone knows either the separatists or their masters the Russians did it. They will keep on denying this till the end.
The Americans must also know this. They have satellites with which they can see from where the missiles were fired. I think they're biding their time.
At most the families will get an apology, but admitting a mistake is not exactly a Russian trait.
Nothing good will come out of this for the families of the victims. |
The rebel were caught on tape admitting they made a mistake LINK |
This was likely a tragic mistake although the western media is trying to spin it politically into something more. We got the opposite western media spin with Iran Air 655 many years ago.
The pro-Russian rebels and Russia had nothing to gain by taking down a passenger plane. The victims have been reduced to pawns in a global political struggle. |
Add KAL 007 to the mix. This sort of thing is just going to happen from time to time in a tense environment. We've done it, the Russians have done it, and it will probably happen again some day. It's awful, but human error is going to occur.
The problem here runs deeper than that. Russia has been supporting and arming an insurgency in Ukraine, and the insurgents just murdered 300 people. The legitimacy of Russia's actions was already in dispute, but most of the world had been turning a blind eye to it because we have so many other issues to deal with, and because no one wants to see an American or NATO incursion into Ukraine. (Well, almost no one, anyway.) This came a day after the US imposed additional economic sanctions. All of a sudden, the world finds that it can't turn a blind eye to the situation anymore. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | The shooting down of the plane was obviously a mistake. Not taking responsibility only adds to the tragedy.
The downing of the craft was a mistake that can't be corrected, the handing of the bodies can.
Not showing respect for the deceased, stealing and using their credit cards, is only piling on to the tragedy. In my eyes that makes Russia look bad. It gives the impression they have no control over the rebels they're backing. |
Nobody ever does have control over the rebels they back. Rebels don't align with their backers over a common ground and respect. They do so out of selfish convenience. |
They don't have control, they do leverage, they're supplying weapons.
They may not be able to control the looting and use of credit cards and such. I'm sure they can make things like allowing inspectors into the crash site area happen.
What's happening to the bodies is appalling.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | LINK
Russia's Military Tells A Very Different Story About What Happened To MH17
| Quote: | The Russian military took accusations a bit further Monday, hinting at some strange speculations. The spokesman asked: "Is it a coincidence that the time of the MH17 crash is the same as a U.S. satellite flew over Ukraine?"
Basically, Russia is suggesting that a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter plane shot down MH17. |
It's time to put the blame game to bed. It's pretty clear who's responsible for the downing of MH17. Who dunnit is irrelevant. Now's the time to console the living.
LINK
Donetsk militia put MH17 bodies on train amidst concerns over intl experts’ absence
The shooting down of a civilian aircraft is bad enough, how they're disrespecting the dead is disturbing and disgusting. |
I was going to post earlier that it is inevitable that the Russians will take this in the direction of what happened with the KAL shoot down many years ago and accuse the flight of being involved in some kind of espionage. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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LINK
Malaysia Says Rebels to Hand Over Jet's Black Boxes
This is surprising. I thought, being that the Rebels are backed by Russia, hey would turn the boxes over to them.
I'm suspicious. I have a feeling the tapes have been tampered with. All reports say tampering is difficult. If someone goes into the boxes it will be detected.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
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Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | LINK
Malaysia Says Rebels to Hand Over Jet's Black Boxes
This is surprising. I thought, being that the Rebels are backed by Russia, hey would turn the boxes over to them.
I'm suspicious. I have a feeling the tapes have been tampered with. All reports say tampering is difficult. If someone goes into the boxes it will be detected. |
I don't think anything significant can really be on the boxes can it?
Jet is flying through the air....
Bloodthirsty murderous rebels stationed on ground spot A jet over their airspace
Murderous heathens launch missile to destroy jet
Jet is flying through the air
Jet.turns into a giant fireball in the sky and crashes into a field and everyone dies?
Doubtful the schmucks below tried to contact the plane before they fired on it. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | I find it interesting how they were/are keeping the amount of Americans killed out of our news cycle... |
One of them was a Chemistry grad student at the University at which I teach. |
Is this the student you're talking about. LINK Anderson Cooper interviewed two young ladies who went to school with her.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | LINK
Malaysia Says Rebels to Hand Over Jet's Black Boxes
This is surprising. I thought, being that the Rebels are backed by Russia, hey would turn the boxes over to them.
I'm suspicious. I have a feeling the tapes have been tampered with. All reports say tampering is difficult. If someone goes into the boxes it will be detected. |
They'd be idiots to even try. They have tons to lose by trying to do so and there really isn't much to gain. Voice recordings aren't going to reveal much that isn't already known. Even if those responsible somehow had the ability to contact the plane, it's highly doubtful they do so to give some kind of threat or warning. And there's not going to be anything said between the crew and ground controls that is going to reveal anything that isn't already known. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, great now Malaysia gets the black boxes...nothing could go wrong with investigators there...  |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | LINK
Malaysia Says Rebels to Hand Over Jet's Black Boxes
This is surprising. I thought, being that the Rebels are backed by Russia, hey would turn the boxes over to them.
I'm suspicious. I have a feeling the tapes have been tampered with. All reports say tampering is difficult. If someone goes into the boxes it will be detected. |
They'd be idiots to even try. They have tons to lose by trying to do so and there really isn't much to gain. Voice recordings aren't going to reveal much that isn't already known. Even if those responsible somehow had the ability to contact the plane, it's highly doubtful they do so to give some kind of threat or warning. And there's not going to be anything said between the crew and ground controls that is going to reveal anything that isn't already known. |
They are idiots, they shot down a commercial passenger jet. As you say they don't have anything to gain. All evidence points to the culprits. Russia has most to lose. Their conspiracy theories are laughable.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | LINK
Malaysia Says Rebels to Hand Over Jet's Black Boxes
This is surprising. I thought, being that the Rebels are backed by Russia, hey would turn the boxes over to them.
I'm suspicious. I have a feeling the tapes have been tampered with. All reports say tampering is difficult. If someone goes into the boxes it will be detected. |
They'd be idiots to even try. They have tons to lose by trying to do so and there really isn't much to gain. Voice recordings aren't going to reveal much that isn't already known. Even if those responsible somehow had the ability to contact the plane, it's highly doubtful they do so to give some kind of threat or warning. And there's not going to be anything said between the crew and ground controls that is going to reveal anything that isn't already known. |
They are idiots, they shot down a commercial passenger jet. As you say they don't have anything to gain. All evidence points to the culprits. Russia has most to lose. Their conspiracy theories are laughable. |
Not saying they aren't idiots, nor excusing their mistake, but even the great and powerful US of A has shot down a civilian airliner.  |
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kaoss128
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | I find it interesting how they were/are keeping the amount of Americans killed out of our news cycle... |
One of them was a Chemistry grad student at the University at which I teach. |
I know a chemistry grad at IU who knew her. |
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shansen008
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| kray28_ wrote: | | Tark the Shark wrote: | Regarding US response to Iran Air 655
| Quote: | | The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[7] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[25][26] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 |
Bush Sr. was another scumbag piece of (bleep). |
Just curious, are there any snow white Republicans you did/do like? Or just the guy in your avatar? |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | LINK
Malaysia Says Rebels to Hand Over Jet's Black Boxes
This is surprising. I thought, being that the Rebels are backed by Russia, hey would turn the boxes over to them.
I'm suspicious. I have a feeling the tapes have been tampered with. All reports say tampering is difficult. If someone goes into the boxes it will be detected. |
They'd be idiots to even try. They have tons to lose by trying to do so and there really isn't much to gain. Voice recordings aren't going to reveal much that isn't already known. Even if those responsible somehow had the ability to contact the plane, it's highly doubtful they do so to give some kind of threat or warning. And there's not going to be anything said between the crew and ground controls that is going to reveal anything that isn't already known. |
They are idiots, they shot down a commercial passenger jet. As you say they don't have anything to gain. All evidence points to the culprits. Russia has most to lose. Their conspiracy theories are laughable. |
Not saying they aren't idiots, nor excusing their mistake, but even the great and powerful US of A has shot down a civilian airliner. |
So did the Soviets, Bulgaria and others. None acted after the fact as this group. I can understand the mistake not the after the fact.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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lakersken80
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