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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Why don't we use "win-shares" as a stat then? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8150
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:05 am Post subject: |
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"Better" is too vague a concept. Even "impact" is tough to compare but is at least a starting point in the discussion.
I think considering expectations and outcome would be relevant when comparing the three.
Duncan is on a loaded team with several players ahead of him that the Spurs rely on more. Still good but limited role. Spurs can actually rest him and not miss a beat.
Dirk is fairly one-dimensional and is expected to hit shots. Others do the defending., rebounding, playmaking and assists on the team.
Kobe is expected to be the best player on the team. By himself and others. He will be asked to score, assist and probably be a tough wing defender. Team has no chance to win if he does not play at a top 10 level.
Actually think he can have a good year if healthy. 32mpg/22pts/6ast while being the focal point of the offense. Lin running the RnR, Young playing solid SG mins, athletic front court will help him this year.
Curious- If Lakers led by Kobe can get 45 wins this year (or longshot 8th seed), would that be more "impactful" then Duncan or Dirk? |
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BROW GOAT 23 Star Player
Joined: 13 Jun 2010 Posts: 2763 Location: Puerto Rico
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mettaElbow Sixth Man
Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 59
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
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dirk posted near 50/40/90 last year , kobe with his best efficiency cannot do that, plus his team cannot win so i highly doubt you can make a case of kobe> for next year, plus the injuries of course, will kobe be more exciting? maybe, for laker fans |
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Illusions Johnson Rookie
Joined: 15 Jul 2014 Posts: 18
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Kobe will put up the most impressive stats of the three. The other two will do more to help their teams win, both because they have better players around them and because they are more willing to lessen their role for the betterment of the team. |
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dmills Star Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 3711
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Some of these responses are so backhanded lol. Anyway, He can roll out of bed and score 25 points and grab 4-5 rebounds. My only concern is that assist to turnover ratio. He's been a turnover machine in recent times.
As to the question, yes I expect that as a player he'll be more effective than those two as in I suspect that he'll be around he's career numbers across the board whereas they (Dirk and TD) are clearly not. And then the pundits will all act shocked that he's still so effective. _________________ A key that has the ability to unlock many locks is a master key. But a lock that can be opened with any key is useless. |
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GigaPaladin Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 100
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe's defense was horrible two years. Can't imagine how bad its gonna be now so false |
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NYClakerguy Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 Posts: 522
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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meh. they're all pretty old now. Dirk is probably going to be the best out of the three. But the Spurs have a team that can do most of the heavy lifting for Duncan nowadays.
Kobe is gonna give the good ol' college try, but by the end of the season his menisci are gonna be dust. |
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psy123321123 Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2014 Posts: 107
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe, overall a better offensive weapon. Duncan, better all around player, which includes rebounding, boards, blocked shots etc. Obviously you don't depend on Duncan for a 3 point shot, or making clutch free throws. But if you need that board for another possession, Duncan by a long mile. You see a big man going towards the rim, just Duncan's size is going to lower the opposing big man's FG%.
This one is really tough. I would say that Duncan overall. But I guess that the opposing party can say that it was under good management by Pop.
Also to note, Kobe won 5 in 7 attempts. Duncan won 5 in 6 attempts. |
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VegasLakerFan Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 1835
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: T or F. Kobe should still be better than Dirk and Duncan next season. |
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LakersNewEra wrote: | He played very little last year and he was clearly in awful shape yet he still managed to score over 20 points more often than not.
Now that he is actually in game shape, he should still easily be close to 25-5-5. Agree or disagree? |
25-5-5 is too high. 22/23-5-4 is more realistic - and just using the "eyeball test" (I kinda hate that term now) based on his quick recovery last season I think he's more than capable. |
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VegasLakerFan Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 1835
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:01 am Post subject: |
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av3773 wrote: | False I think
Much harder on an aging guard than bigs I think, and in dirks case a lot of spot of jump shooting |
Dirk is kinda special because of his outside shot, but for the most part bigs age less gracefully than guards. There seems to be a huge dropoff for most bigs at around age 32. Kobe is obviously well past age 32 but I'm wondering if his general awesomeness might overcome his new physical limitations. |
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LakersNewEra Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2014 Posts: 1526 Location: Vancouver BC
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Before his injury, Kobe still looked like an immortal, still had a case for being the best player in the league. Now obviously, everybody expects him to be a top 10 player at best.
I think since 2001 Kobe was always better than Dirk and Duncan except MAYBE in 2002 when Duncan was amazing and in 2004, not Dirk or Duncan but KG was likely better that year. All other years though, Kobe, Kobe, Kobe.
He will still be better individually.
I think many people forgot just how good Kobe is. Even if he is just at 80 %.
The 2013 team was deemed failure but they onluly gor swept by the Spurs because Kobe got injured. Otherwise, it would have been a series. Who knows how far the Lakers would've advanced. |
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nashftw Starting Rotation
Joined: 19 Jul 2014 Posts: 177
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:07 am Post subject: |
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i think he will be a more mature player this year considering what he went through and what he has seen the team go through last year. i hope he can be more of a teacher and pace his play, letting his teammates shine. then at opportune times (crunch time), he can strike.
if he plays wiser, he will be better, and the team will be better |
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kinein Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2014 Posts: 274
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:12 am Post subject: Re: T or F. Kobe should still be better than Dirk and Duncan next season. |
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LakersNewEra wrote: | He played very little last year and he was clearly in awful shape yet he still managed to score over 20 points more often than not.
Now that he is actually in game shape, he should still easily be close to 25-5-5. Agree or disagree? |
True. Kobe is 100%. |
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LakersNewEra Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2014 Posts: 1526 Location: Vancouver BC
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:35 am Post subject: |
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nashftw wrote: | i think he will be a more mature player this year considering what he went through and what he has seen the team go through last year. i hope he can be more of a teacher and pace his play, letting his teammates shine. then at opportune times (crunch time), he can strike.
if he plays wiser, he will be better, and the team will be better |
Srsly? If Kobe plays wiser, everything will be better? There is always room for growth in everyone but if there is one player in the league whose wisdom as you put it and mastery of the game is at the absolute highest level, its Kobe. This stuff belongs to 10 years ago. Its basically Kobe hinders his teammates talk.
Now that is what we here are sensitive to. Be careful with that discourse Lin fans. Just a little word to the wise. Your post wasnt bad at all yet it hit a nerve lol. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: Re: T or F. Kobe should still be better than Dirk and Duncan next season. |
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kinein wrote: | LakersNewEra wrote: | He played very little last year and he was clearly in awful shape yet he still managed to score over 20 points more often than not.
Now that he is actually in game shape, he should still easily be close to 25-5-5. Agree or disagree? |
True. Kobe is 100%. |
Completely disagree.
FWIW, he didn't score over 20 points more often than not. He scored over 20 points as often as he scored 8 or less.
"Easily" close to 25-5-5? No. Kobe has hit those benchmarks 8 times in his career. He averaged 40 MPG in those seasons to hit those marks and most of those seasons were in his prime. Here is the MPG it required for him to hit those numbers in those seasons:
38.6, 38.8, 38.9, 40.8, 40.7, 41.5, 38.3, 40.9
He has never hit the 25/5/5 mark playing less than 38.3 MPG even in his absolute prime.
He'll be 36 when he steps on the court and the last time he played was when we has 34. He's coming off an achilles injury which has a 100% success record of having its victims come back and unable to produce at a level better than \what they were doing pre-injury. Some (like Isaiah Thomas) never came back at all.
There's actually no evidence to suggest he'll be able to play around 40 MPG and be equally efficient as he was pre-injury. There is only evidence that he'll have to play fewer minutes and play less efficiently as 100% of players with an achilles tear has.
The silver lining in this is only that Kobe was so good to begin with that even a 30% dropoff (optimistic dropoff of Achilles tear sufferers) is still respectable. (That would be about 20 PPG give or take for him). |
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Man with No Name Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 157
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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False |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: Re: T or F. Kobe should still be better than Dirk and Duncan next season. |
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LakersNewEra wrote: | He played very little last year and he was clearly in awful shape yet he still managed to score over 20 points more often than not.
Now that he is actually in game shape, he should still easily be close to 25-5-5. Agree or disagree? |
I've been on the 25/5/5 train all along. I find no reason to change now. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:20 am Post subject: |
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LakersNewEra wrote: | Before his injury, Kobe still looked like an immortal, still had a case for being the best player in the league. Now obviously, everybody expects him to be a top 10 player at best.
I think since 2001 Kobe was always better than Dirk and Duncan except MAYBE in 2002 when Duncan was amazing and in 2004, not Dirk or Duncan but KG was likely better that year. All other years though, Kobe, Kobe, Kobe.
He will still be better individually.
I think many people forgot just how good Kobe is. Even if he is just at 80 %.
The 2013 team was deemed failure but they onluly gor swept by the Spurs because Kobe got injured. Otherwise, it would have been a series. Who knows how far the Lakers would've advanced. |
Exactly. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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deal Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 14904 Location: Earth
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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IF Kobe is healthy, there's not much else to talk about. He's always hungry for the win, always intense, clutch...
I wouldn't give this much thought aside from Kobe being healthy, like I mentioned... |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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mettaElbow wrote: | dirk posted near 50/40/90 last year , kobe with his best efficiency cannot do that, plus his team cannot win so i highly doubt you can make a case of kobe> for next year, plus the injuries of course, will kobe be more exciting? maybe, for laker fans |
People who think efficiency is all that important in basketball don't know crap about basketball. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | mettaElbow wrote: | dirk posted near 50/40/90 last year , kobe with his best efficiency cannot do that, plus his team cannot win so i highly doubt you can make a case of kobe> for next year, plus the injuries of course, will kobe be more exciting? maybe, for laker fans |
People who think efficiency is all that important in basketball don't know crap about basketball. |
I could care less about individual stats. How much his stats correlate to wins is the only pertinent for me. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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70sdude Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 4567
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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faze wrote: | BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Anyone who says "false" obviously hasn't been a Laker or Kobe fan for long and doesn't know what he is capable of and his determination.
I would put all my money on him having a better year.
He misses one season and some people think he is gonna come back and be just a mediocre player...what the heck?? It is not like he played a lot of games last season and we got to see how exactly the achilles injury effected him.
Everyone thought Peyton Manning would come back as just an average qb after his injury too. |
This, people overestimate injuries to superstar/GOAT calibur players sometimes. Kobe is the hardest working person in the league. You don't go from Superstar to mediocre that fast. Even a guy like Tiger Woods is theoretically a top 3-5 golfer despite basically having injury after injury after injury the past 5 years.
He will undoubtedly be better than Duncan, and very very likely Dirk. Duncan is anywhere from the 20th-40th best player in the league. Dirk is in the 10-20 range. Kobe was the 3rd best player before last season. Yes, he missed the entire year and is coming off consecutive injuries... but he will also be rejuvenated and have more energy coming into the season than usual. |
Let's see, I think you neglect history. It's misinterpretation of reality to call it overestimation of Kobe's injuries of the past two seasons. I call a return to form for Kobe an age-defying, unprecedented act. I have no hope and no reason to think he's capable of it. None.
I have never seen a single perimeter player return to better-than-mediocre form from two years of consecutive leg and foot injuries at age 36. There's a reason it has never happened: age and accumulated injury and debilitation of the body catches up to every player, and this is his time. Perimter players rely on speed, quickness and mobility in this game. He's ranked fifteenth all-time in terms of career minutes played, and eight of the fouteen ranked ahead of him are bigs; none of the smalls came back from late career severe injuries.
It's not gonna happen for Kobe, though we may wish it could. |
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Chick-N-Stew Star Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1825
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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_________________ Mama, There Goes That Mamba. |
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shove-orange Rookie
Joined: 19 Jul 2014 Posts: 11
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: |
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He was better than both of them before the injury (27 5 5 top 5 player) so I don't see why he couldn't be if he has made a good recovery. We are talking individual play not team success correct? |
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