View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
thejet24 Star Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2007 Posts: 3020
|
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Odds of winning the NBA lottery 4 out of 12 years?
0.00012%
Dan Gilbert is either the luckiest man alive, or did Stern and the league a huge favor at some point.
Hard to believe it's just by chance the Cavs are in a position where they got consecutive #1 picks and are on the verge of flipping those picks for Kevin Love the same year LeBron is a FA. _________________ 2008-2010 Finals. 28.9 PTS 6.1 REB 5.4 AST 2.1 STLs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
numero-ocho Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18190 Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LINK
Quote: | The Chicago Bulls have offered a package of Taj Gibson and rookies Doug McDermott and Nikola Mirotic to the Minnesota Timberwolves for All-Star forward Kevin Love, a league source told SheridanHoops.com on Wednesday.
...
The source who spoke to SheridanHoops said he believed the Bulls’ offer was better in the minds of the Wolves than the Cavs’ current offer of Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a first-round pick.
But if Cleveland is willing to include a second future first-round pick – it owns the rights to Miami’s first-rounder as well as Memphis’ in 2015) – that might be enough to trump Chicago’s offer.
|
Sounds like the Wolves are playing the Cavs. Wiggins, Bennett and TWO #1 picks? Hope they don't overplay their hand. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nutella Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 594
|
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
numero-ocho wrote: | LINK
Quote: | The Chicago Bulls have offered a package of Taj Gibson and rookies Doug McDermott and Nikola Mirotic to the Minnesota Timberwolves for All-Star forward Kevin Love, a league source told SheridanHoops.com on Wednesday.
...
The source who spoke to SheridanHoops said he believed the Bulls’ offer was better in the minds of the Wolves than the Cavs’ current offer of Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a first-round pick.
But if Cleveland is willing to include a second future first-round pick – it owns the rights to Miami’s first-rounder as well as Memphis’ in 2015) – that might be enough to trump Chicago’s offer.
|
Sounds like the Wolves are playing the Cavs. Wiggins, Bennett and TWO #1 picks? Hope they don't overplay their hand. |
so, potentially, Bulls is going to have Noah + Pau + KLove |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="wolfpaclaker"
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star [/quote]
Um, do you realize that only 15 guys in NBA history have made a dozen all-star teams?
You're projecting Wiggins to be at the upper part of the all-time Top 50 team. That's Jerry West/Michael Jordan/Karl Malone/Moses Malone terrain. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
|
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | [quote="wolfpaclaker"
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star |
Um, do you realize that only 15 guys in NBA history have made a dozen all-star teams?
You're projecting Wiggins to be at the upper part of the all-time Top 50 team. That's Jerry West/Michael Jordan/Karl Malone/Moses Malone terrain.[/quote]
If you go to philosophy programs around the country, you'll find a very few actual philosophers, the ones who come up with the ideas and then construct a theory. You'll find a whole lot of mediocre people who never put their necks out, just stand back and try to fell better about their sorry existence by trying to bring down their betters. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
|
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | [quote="wolfpaclaker"
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star |
Um, do you realize that only 15 guys in NBA history have made a dozen all-star teams?
You're projecting Wiggins to be at the upper part of the all-time Top 50 team. That's Jerry West/Michael Jordan/Karl Malone/Moses Malone terrain.[/quote]
And so what if he is? It's possible. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just thinking.
Wizards lose Ariza.
Miami lost LeBron.
Milwaukee is too young.
Pacers lost Stephenson.
Bulls need a healthy Derrick Rose.
So, that just means Cleveland and Toronto..
And this is BEFORE the Kevin Love trade.
Just saying, even though Cleveland is a young team, I don't necessarily think that Kevin Love takes them over the hump. If Varejao starts playing like himself and Bennett stays in shape... the Cavs can still keep Wiggins and be 1 frontcourt player away. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
KBH wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
Lakers did this in 1996.
I'm starting to think Kevin Love is overrated.
Kyrie Irving is All-Star caliber.
Varejao is a better defender and equal rebounder to Kevin Love.
Bennett can provide (albeit streaky) 3-point range.
Wiggins can be a 3 and D player for LeBron while being an elite finisher.
I don't see what the problem is. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mike@LG wrote: | KBH wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
Lakers did this in 1996.
I'm starting to think Kevin Love is overrated.
Kyrie Irving is All-Star caliber.
Varejao is a better defender and equal rebounder to Kevin Love.
Bennett can provide (albeit streaky) 3-point range.
Wiggins can be a 3 and D player for LeBron while being an elite finisher.
I don't see what the problem is. |
Vlade Divac was good, but not on Love's level. You're comparing a top 10-12 player (and some people would argue he's top 5-8) in the league to a fringe all-star. Oh, and the Lakers happened to be signing this guy named Shaq you may have heard of that played the same position as Vlade. This comparison fails just by looking at the bare facts.
Yes, Kyrie Irving is all-star caliber. No debate there.
Varejao has played in 31, 25, 25 and 65 games the last four seasons and has three other seasons in which he played less than 60 games. How is banking on him a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
The same Anthony Bennett who put together one of the worst rookie seasons for a number 1 pick ever? Yes, I know he played a bit better as the season went on, but once again, how is banking on this guy a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
Yes, Wiggins can potentially be a three and D player. But is he ready to be the third best player on a title team? He's 19. And to bring this back to your comparison with Kobe, Kobe wasn't ready at that age, much less at the time he was drafted. The Lakers had enough talent to be a playoff team even before getting Shaq. This is a team that won the lottery where Wiggins will have to be a big contributor for them to be a contender in the east, much less for a ring.
The problem is that the Cavs, as they stand, may be good enough to win the East because the conference is a wasteland. They can't beat any of the West's top four teams as presently constituted. Adding a top-10 player to the team changes the dynamic completely. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
KBH wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | KBH wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
Lakers did this in 1996.
I'm starting to think Kevin Love is overrated.
Kyrie Irving is All-Star caliber.
Varejao is a better defender and equal rebounder to Kevin Love.
Bennett can provide (albeit streaky) 3-point range.
Wiggins can be a 3 and D player for LeBron while being an elite finisher.
I don't see what the problem is. |
Vlade Divac was good, but not on Love's level. You're comparing a top 10-12 player (and some people would argue he's top 5-8) in the league to a fringe all-star. Oh, and the Lakers happened to be signing this guy named Shaq you may have heard of that played the same position as Vlade. This comparison fails just by looking at the bare facts.
Yes, Kyrie Irving is all-star caliber. No debate there.
Varejao has played in 31, 25, 25 and 65 games the last four seasons and has three other seasons in which he played less than 60 games. How is banking on him a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
The same Anthony Bennett who put together one of the worst rookie seasons for a number 1 pick ever? Yes, I know he played a bit better as the season went on, but once again, how is banking on this guy a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
Yes, Wiggins can potentially be a three and D player. But is he ready to be the third best player on a title team? He's 19. And to bring this back to your comparison with Kobe, Kobe wasn't ready at that age, much less at the time he was drafted. The Lakers had enough talent to be a playoff team even before getting Shaq. This is a team that won the lottery where Wiggins will have to be a big contributor for them to be a contender in the east, much less for a ring.
The problem is that the Cavs, as they stand, may be good enough to win the East because the conference is a wasteland. They can't beat any of the West's top four teams as presently constituted. Adding a top-10 player to the team changes the dynamic completely. |
Wiggins is ready to be a 3rd option player right now.
Understand the concerns of Varejao, but he's one of the toughest interior defenders and rebounders out there. He's had plenty of time to recover and is key to LeBron's success.
I also think Kevin Love is overrated. All this talk of PER for shot selection that's perimeter based, limited defensive capabilities, and pure rebounding.
The rest of the East got weaker too. Toronto is the team to watch, but if things get that bad, why not have LeBron play PF then? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vino24 Starting Rotation
Joined: 08 Mar 2013 Posts: 156
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
If i were the cavs, i would rather keep wiggins and bennet than love... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mike@LG wrote: | KBH wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | KBH wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
Lakers did this in 1996.
I'm starting to think Kevin Love is overrated.
Kyrie Irving is All-Star caliber.
Varejao is a better defender and equal rebounder to Kevin Love.
Bennett can provide (albeit streaky) 3-point range.
Wiggins can be a 3 and D player for LeBron while being an elite finisher.
I don't see what the problem is. |
Vlade Divac was good, but not on Love's level. You're comparing a top 10-12 player (and some people would argue he's top 5-8) in the league to a fringe all-star. Oh, and the Lakers happened to be signing this guy named Shaq you may have heard of that played the same position as Vlade. This comparison fails just by looking at the bare facts.
Yes, Kyrie Irving is all-star caliber. No debate there.
Varejao has played in 31, 25, 25 and 65 games the last four seasons and has three other seasons in which he played less than 60 games. How is banking on him a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
The same Anthony Bennett who put together one of the worst rookie seasons for a number 1 pick ever? Yes, I know he played a bit better as the season went on, but once again, how is banking on this guy a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
Yes, Wiggins can potentially be a three and D player. But is he ready to be the third best player on a title team? He's 19. And to bring this back to your comparison with Kobe, Kobe wasn't ready at that age, much less at the time he was drafted. The Lakers had enough talent to be a playoff team even before getting Shaq. This is a team that won the lottery where Wiggins will have to be a big contributor for them to be a contender in the east, much less for a ring.
The problem is that the Cavs, as they stand, may be good enough to win the East because the conference is a wasteland. They can't beat any of the West's top four teams as presently constituted. Adding a top-10 player to the team changes the dynamic completely. |
Wiggins is ready to be a 3rd option player right now.
Understand the concerns of Varejao, but he's one of the toughest interior defenders and rebounders out there. He's had plenty of time to recover and is key to LeBron's success.
I also think Kevin Love is overrated. All this talk of PER for shot selection that's perimeter based, limited defensive capabilities, and pure rebounding.
The rest of the East got weaker too. Toronto is the team to watch, but if things get that bad, why not have LeBron play PF then? |
No matter whether the Cavs keep Wiggins or trade for Love they are a team of question marks.
How will Wiggins pan out? How does Love address their issues? Will Varejao be able to stay healthy? Will all these young players improve next to Lebron?
Wiggins is all about potential and potential makes some people giddy. They always assume it will be pan out 150% (hence the post that Wiggins is a sure bet to make 10-12 all-star teams -- I would love to take the other side of that bet).
I know some people will always want to think their guesses to these questions are undeniably right.
But if that was true, we wouldn't be seeing a billion debates on all this stuff. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star |
Um, do you realize that only 15 guys in NBA history have made a dozen all-star teams?
You're projecting Wiggins to be at the upper part of the all-time Top 50 team. That's Jerry West/Michael Jordan/Karl Malone/Moses Malone terrain. |
All you have to do to be an all star is to be popular. It has little to do with playing ability. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Last edited by venturalakersfan on Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mike@LG wrote: | Just thinking.
Wizards lose Ariza.
Miami lost LeBron.
Milwaukee is too young.
Pacers lost Stephenson.
Bulls need a healthy Derrick Rose.
So, that just means Cleveland and Toronto..
And this is BEFORE the Kevin Love trade.
Just saying, even though Cleveland is a young team, I don't necessarily think that Kevin Love takes them over the hump. If Varejao starts playing like himself and Bennett stays in shape... the Cavs can still keep Wiggins and be 1 frontcourt player away. |
I think Indiana is still in the mix in the East. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
eureca Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 15798
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | @ESPNSteinLine
Cavs FINALLY announce signing of Andrew Wiggins to FINALLY start 30-day clock before he can be legally traded to Wolves in a Kevin Love deal |
Quote: | @ESPNSteinLine
ESPN sources say that, as things stand, Minnesota likes the Cavs' Wiggins-led offer better than anything else on the table for Kevin Love |
Quote: | @ESPNSteinLine
But fact Cleveland now must wait 30 days before Wiggins can be legally dealt does put Cavs at risk for someone else trumping their offer |
Quote: | @ESPNSteinLine
Only Cavs, of teams in Love hunt, can offer potential superstar in Wiggins' class. But Flip Saunders, as we know, is a big Klay Thompson fan |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
venturalakersfan wrote: | activeverb wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star |
Um, do you realize that only 15 guys in NBA history have made a dozen all-star teams?
You're projecting Wiggins to be at the upper part of the all-time Top 50 team. That's Jerry West/Michael Jordan/Karl Malone/Moses Malone terrain. |
All you have to do to be an all star is to be popular. It has little to do with playing ability. |
So there have only been 15 very popular players in NBA history? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38751
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bulls are on the clock now....they have 30 days to make a better offer. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
focus Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2012 Posts: 2526
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
postandpivot Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 36822
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KBH wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | KBH wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
Lakers did this in 1996.
I'm starting to think Kevin Love is overrated.
Kyrie Irving is All-Star caliber.
Varejao is a better defender and equal rebounder to Kevin Love.
Bennett can provide (albeit streaky) 3-point range.
Wiggins can be a 3 and D player for LeBron while being an elite finisher.
I don't see what the problem is. |
Vlade Divac was good, but not on Love's level. You're comparing a top 10-12 player (and some people would argue he's top 5-8) in the league to a fringe all-star. Oh, and the Lakers happened to be signing this guy named Shaq you may have heard of that played the same position as Vlade. This comparison fails just by looking at the bare facts.
Yes, Kyrie Irving is all-star caliber. No debate there.
Varejao has played in 31, 25, 25 and 65 games the last four seasons and has three other seasons in which he played less than 60 games. How is banking on him a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
The same Anthony Bennett who put together one of the worst rookie seasons for a number 1 pick ever? Yes, I know he played a bit better as the season went on, but once again, how is banking on this guy a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
Yes, Wiggins can potentially be a three and D player. But is he ready to be the third best player on a title team? He's 19. And to bring this back to your comparison with Kobe, Kobe wasn't ready at that age, much less at the time he was drafted. The Lakers had enough talent to be a playoff team even before getting Shaq. This is a team that won the lottery where Wiggins will have to be a big contributor for them to be a contender in the east, much less for a ring.
The problem is that the Cavs, as they stand, may be good enough to win the East because the conference is a wasteland. They can't beat any of the West's top four teams as presently constituted. Adding a top-10 player to the team changes the dynamic completely. | slow down there. love look as good as he does because of the era he's playing in. i have to keep saying this.
do you really want the names of the centers vlade had to go up against? lets even throw in the other PF bigs? too much legendary talent. but love at pf, is going up against no legends at all. unless we assume all offense blake will become a legend one day.
love is pretty good. but he is not great. he's a #2 guy. and more like a 2B guy to be honest. _________________ LAL4K3RS wrote: He(Kobe) is the white haired kung fu master that you realize is older than dirt but can still kick your arse when in a sitting position drinking a nice herbal tea. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
postandpivot wrote: | KBH wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | KBH wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | KBH wrote: | CandyCanes wrote: | Wow. Giving up Wiggins for Love sounds insane. |
How is giving up an unproven rookie for arguably the best PF in the league insane? The only reason for the Cavs not to pull the trigger on that move is that they possibly have enough assets to get Love and still keep Wiggins-which would be borderline highway robbery. |
Because it is quite likely that Wiggins will be a 10-12 time all-star while Love as probably 4-5 more quality years like that. You rarely see this type of move. And it's not JUST Wiggins. The Cavs have to make salaries work, lots of other talent is going out. Already Wiggins is as good DeMar DeRozan, I promise you on that. How much better can he get? Don't know, but he'll be a very good player for a long time.
The main benefit is that they would be closer to the top 2 in the East playoffs than the 7th/8th seed. However, to really justify this they would need Love to stay on for 5 years at least and Lebron the same. Lebron/Love/Irving playing together for 5 years likely yields a few deep playoff runs with a possibility of a title or two, depending on other factors. It's a good move for CLE, IF Lebron stays on beyond these 2 years and Love re-signs for 4 more years. Those are IF's not certain things. If the Lakers were in the same boat, I'd pass on dealing Wiggins for Love to be honest. |
It's also very unlikely that Wiggins will ever be as good as Lebron, who you already have. When you have the best player in the NBA at the age of 29 on your team, it's all about maximizing the time you have him, not about waiting for a 19 year old to develop. If you can do both and get Love without giving up Wiggins, great. But Wiggins won't be a championship-ready player for another 2-4 years, by which point Lebron will likely be past his prime. You can't possibly sacrifice what Lebron is for what Wiggins MIGHT be. Also, Love is only 25 years old. I think it's crazy to say he only has 4-5 all-star years left. We probably disagree on this, but I think a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with good role players (which they are already gathering) is enough to blitz the east and win some rings, too. |
Lakers did this in 1996.
I'm starting to think Kevin Love is overrated.
Kyrie Irving is All-Star caliber.
Varejao is a better defender and equal rebounder to Kevin Love.
Bennett can provide (albeit streaky) 3-point range.
Wiggins can be a 3 and D player for LeBron while being an elite finisher.
I don't see what the problem is. |
Vlade Divac was good, but not on Love's level. You're comparing a top 10-12 player (and some people would argue he's top 5-8) in the league to a fringe all-star. Oh, and the Lakers happened to be signing this guy named Shaq you may have heard of that played the same position as Vlade. This comparison fails just by looking at the bare facts.
Yes, Kyrie Irving is all-star caliber. No debate there.
Varejao has played in 31, 25, 25 and 65 games the last four seasons and has three other seasons in which he played less than 60 games. How is banking on him a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
The same Anthony Bennett who put together one of the worst rookie seasons for a number 1 pick ever? Yes, I know he played a bit better as the season went on, but once again, how is banking on this guy a reason to not get Love in any way, shape or form?
Yes, Wiggins can potentially be a three and D player. But is he ready to be the third best player on a title team? He's 19. And to bring this back to your comparison with Kobe, Kobe wasn't ready at that age, much less at the time he was drafted. The Lakers had enough talent to be a playoff team even before getting Shaq. This is a team that won the lottery where Wiggins will have to be a big contributor for them to be a contender in the east, much less for a ring.
The problem is that the Cavs, as they stand, may be good enough to win the East because the conference is a wasteland. They can't beat any of the West's top four teams as presently constituted. Adding a top-10 player to the team changes the dynamic completely. | slow down there. love look as good as he does because of the era he's playing in. i have to keep saying this.
do you really want the names of the centers vlade had to go up against? lets even throw in the other PF bigs? too much legendary talent. but love at pf, is going up against no legends at all. unless we assume all offense blake will become a legend one day.
love is pretty good. but he is not great. he's a #2 guy. and more like a 2B guy to be honest. |
I'm not going to play the "what-if" and "era" game because it doesn't matter. Even if you want to say Love is better because of the time he plays in, the fact is we can't transport 1996 Vlade 18 years into the future, thus, making your point irrelevant. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
improper Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Jan 2014 Posts: 146
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mike@LG wrote: | Wiggins is ready to be a 3rd option player right now.
Understand the concerns of Varejao, but he's one of the toughest interior defenders and rebounders out there. He's had plenty of time to recover and is key to LeBron's success.
I also think Kevin Love is overrated. All this talk of PER for shot selection that's perimeter based, limited defensive capabilities, and pure rebounding.
The rest of the East got weaker too. Toronto is the team to watch, but if things get that bad, why not have LeBron play PF then? |
I totally disagree that Wiggins is ready to be a third option right now. He's nowhere near ready. The kid can barely dribble without turning the ball over. As currently constructed, he's a theoretical three and D guy. I say theoretical because he shot the three horribly during Summer League, and while his form is nice he doesn't get a lot of rotation on the ball.
Wiggins is an athletic freak, obviously, but he doesn't have a lot of moves at the rim and, thus, struggled to finish in college. I don't see that changing for a couple of years as he adjusts to the heightened competition. Right now, his go-to move is a nice step-back jumper, but Wiggins just flat out lacks the handles and passing ability to be a 20ppg scorer from the wing in the NBA right now.
He would certainly get his fair share of open dunks off of slashes and transition opportunities playing next to LeBron, but anyone who thinks this kid is ready to be a key contributor on a title team hasn't seen him play. He's got a very high ceiling, but right now he is raw as all hell.
I also disagree that Kevin Love is overrated. He's one of the ten best players in the NBA. I didn't think he was top five until I tried to make a list of guys better than him and struggled to come up with four names. You can certainly make the "never been to the playoffs" argument, but Love's team last year was ridiculously better last year both offensively and defensively when he was on the court. He's just surrounded by garbage. It's amazing he shoots as well as he does when he's literally the only guy on the roster that other teams have to actually guard.
As far as Varejao goes, he's best served as a bench big who plays about twenty-five minutes a night. He's absolutely a great player, and one of the best big men passers in the league, but I'm of the firm belief that his high usage the past four years has been a key contributor to his constant injuries. He's never been all that hardy, but when you try to push him past premium role-player minutes, he breaks easily. My money would be on the Cavs either getting Dieng as a part of the Love deal or using Haywood's ten million non-guaranteed contract next year to trade for a guy like Larry Sanders, who would be perfect next to Love. That will allow them to utilize Varejao in a smaller role where he'll thrive and drive other teams nuts. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
The thing is IMO Love and Lebron are great on paper but in reality I'm not sure they will win rings.
I think there would be defensive issue there. Wiggins OTOH is still on the up and up, and has immense potential as a defender. He really could be LBJs Pippen type of right hand man who does all the dirty work. Meanwhile he has a great shot at improving and helping CLE beyond the Lebron comes home era ... Again to me if this were the Lakers I would not trade Wiggins. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
improper Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Jan 2014 Posts: 146
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
wolfpaclaker wrote: | The thing is IMO Love and Lebron are great on paper but in reality I'm not sure they will win rings.
I think there would be defensive issue there. Wiggins OTOH is still on the up and up, and has immense potential as a defender. He really could be LBJs Pippen type of right hand man who does all the dirty work. Meanwhile he has a great shot at improving and helping CLE beyond the Lebron comes home era ... Again to me if this were the Lakers I would not trade Wiggins. |
I would argue that Love is still on the up and up too. He's only twenty-five, just entering his prime, and he has a Nowitzki-esque game that should age well.
You are absolutely right that defense could be an issue, especially this year, as the Cavs lack a legitimate rim protector. I do think that Love's supposed lack of defensive ability is overstated. All indications are that he's at the very least a decent defender. Not great, but certainly not the sieve he's made out to be. If you want to see some truly awful defense, watch some Kyrie Irving or James Harden game film.
I was listening to the Lowe Post Podcast from yesterday and Lee Jenkins makes an excellent point. If you're the Cavs, you just signed the best player in the league. He's twenty-nine. Do you try to be good for as long as possible or really good for a shorter time frame? By trading for Love, you open the window as wide as possible to win a titles now.
It is a really tough call, though. It's never easy to give up on a prospect like Wiggins, but Love is already one of the best players in the league. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think foot speed would be issue for Love/James. Unlike Bosh, Love is not a great S/R defender or at moving his feet. Minnesota consistently was bad on D. This isn't KG coming out of Minnesota's bad teams. Part of the reason Minnesota is so bad is Love's defense. It's not an asset, it's a hinderence because he's slow footed. He's not quick enough to defend quicker front court players, and while he has a solid post base, he can't really defend low post C's. His main asset is his rebounding, but you have to play team and man D.
Then factor LBJ in Miami was playing a lot of PF and even C defensively. If you look at what Spo did, Lebron played all over the place. This was because could switch from PF to C and Bosh was also a pretty good perimeter defender for a guy his size. Miami's D more than their O was why they were stellar. On O, in the end it always just came down to LBJ or Wade creating in big moments and their shooters making open looks.
In CLE, I'd argue their defensive versatility and potential is far more with a James/Wiggins tandem, than James/Love. What CLE would be trying to do is have Love play the Bosh role. Which he can on O, but I don't think he can on D.
That said, it's not like I'd find it was stupid if this. They have one of the GOAT in prime. They've never won a ring. So if you can get closer to a ring today, you do it. I understand all of that. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|