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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. They rarely, if ever, mention Kareem's SIX championships, or his SIX Most Valuable Player awards, or the fact that he played for 20 seasons, and quite brilliantly save the last one or two (when he was in his 40s). They don't like to discuss the fact that he is the all-time leading scorer in the history of the pro game. That's only kind of like the all-time home run record in baseball prior to the steroids era.
But the media didn't like Kareem. And in fairness Kareem oft times didn't go out of his way to be liked by them. But it doesn't change what he accomplished as a basketball player. But in the end, they didn't like him, and he's now an afterthought, if he's even mentioned at all. And that's the way it will stay.
Within a few years following Kobe's retirement, the same fate will befall him. Because the dishonest media that spent 10 years pummeling the world with "Michael Jordan is God, and no dissent will be tolerated" decided early on that the brash young kid who had the GALL to suggest he'd like to go down as the greatest to ever play (a trait that is normally admired in great athletes) was not going to disrupt the "narrative" they had so carefully crafted for so long. No sir.
Look no further than their current absurd coverage of LeBron. Nobody is denying that he is a great player now. But according to some of the things I've read from his media acolytes, it's "OK" if he doesn't win in Cleveland. He's done enough. No wonder he left Miami, he didn't have enough "help" there. They went to four finals in a row, and won two in a row, both absurdly difficult achievements, and he was playing next to three guys who will likely be with him in the HOF one day. But he "didn't have enough help". I'll leave it to one's imagination what they would be saying about Kobe if he was 2-3 in the NBA Finals.
When Kobe was playing some of the greatest basketball ever "witnessed", but couldn't drag Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton across the finish line, he was a BUM. A Joke. A Loser who shot too much. It was all his fault.
The "narrative" on Kobe is already set in stone. If he wins another championship or three before he's done, it will matter not to the charlatans that dole out the "information" to the masses.
He is already an afterthought in their "narrative", and nothing is going to change that. |
Yep
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Illusions Johnson wrote: | I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order. |
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. |
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
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Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. |
A. I saw every game Magic ever played and many, many of Birds.
B. Your argument is fictional narrative derived from a POV that favors a certain World POV. Any argument that Kobe doesn't have that something special that allows teams to win is absurd.
C. I'll only give you one stat- 5. That's the number of rings Kobe has and the same that Magic has and two more than Bird has. And neither Magic or Bird ever won with rosters less full of talent than any of Kobe's 5 rings.
D. You want to talk about "it" then talk about pressure. No wing player in the history of the game has ever put so much pressure on the opposing team as Kobe. Pressure causes teams to wilt, fold and ultimately be dominated. Pressure is when you triple team a player off ball 30 feet from the basket. You've never seen that happen to ANYONE on the face of the planet except for Kobe. Not MJ, not Bird, not Magic, not any of the great big men and not LBJ.
E. So yeah, I've heard all of the generational arguments about how it's only the young Laker fans who think Kobe is better than Magic or Bird. Well, I saw them as much as anyone and I'll hold to my opinion.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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ZenMaster4President
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Joined: 26 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Black Salt wrote: | Shaq and Kobe's two Finals losses changed everything for them.
What separates Jordan from everyone else, that not many people talk about enough is 6-0. two 3-peats. 6 Finals MVPs. The reason why Joe Montana always has the upper hand over the Elways, Unitas' and brady's, is 4-0 in the Super Bowl, 3 mvps and 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
Imagine if Shaq had gone 6-0 in the finals. He would have won championships with 3 different teams and more than likely have 5 Finals MVPs.
Had Kobe gone 7-0 in the finals, 2 3-peats, 4 out of 5 titles. He would be a 3 time Finals MVP, would have beaten the Celtics twice and would have pushed the Lakers to the top spot in titles.
In Shaq and Kobe's two finals losses each, their teams were the favorite. So you cant say it was a Lebron in 2007 thing or AI in 2001.
I have said many times, had Shaq won all 6 of his finals appearances, I felt he would be #1 all time at the center position. No worse than two with Kareem being #1.
Kobe, would have undoubtedly be #2 AT WORST and in the top 5 had he gone 7-0. |
What kind of backwards logic is that?
How is 6 - 6 better than, say, 6 - 8?
6 - 6 means you got to the finals 2 LESS times while winning the same amount. % means jack in that scenario. Saying "Jordan never lost in the finals" is not that impressive when in reality it means "Jordan never loast in the finals, but lost a BUNCH of times in conference finals FAILING to get to the finals". |
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Illusions Johnson
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Once Jordan hit his absolute prime, the only thing that prevented him from winning every championship from 91 to the end of the decade was his decision to retire, twice.
I think, more than Colorado, there's a perception that Kobe cares about winning, but only on his terms. That he and Shaq couldn't get along and win more championships together, Phil's book, etc., have given his critics the perception that he's not necessarily a team player, that he doesn't make teammates better like Magic or Bird or Jordan or LeBron. |
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CabinCreek44
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Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 3855
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| ppineda wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: |
As an aside, Kareem was also the MVP of the 1985 Finals at age 38. That won't ever happen again. |
Duncan was 20 seconds away from winning the Finals MVP last season. I think he was 38 then. So, it could still happen. |
He was 37 then, and they didn't win.  |
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CabinCreek44
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Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 3855
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Illusions Johnson wrote: | Once Jordan hit his absolute prime, the only thing that prevented him from winning every championship from 91 to the end of the decade was his decision to retire, twice.
I think, more than Colorado, there's a perception that Kobe cares about winning, but only on his terms. That he and Shaq couldn't get along and win more championships together, Phil's book, etc., have given his critics the perception that he's not necessarily a team player, that he doesn't make teammates better like Magic or Bird or Jordan or LeBron. |
This is something the media likes to go on about as well, but Jordan did play in the 1995 playoffs, and his team was defeated 4-2 by the Orlando Magic. He was on the floor and his team lost. A lot of people seem to forget that, willfully in some cases I'm afraid, certainly in the media's case.
There is no telling how Jordan's career would have gone had he played that season and a half. But one thing's for sure, that would have been another season and a half of NBA miles on his body. There's no way to know how that may or may not have affected his play from 96-98. |
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DrWolf
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Posts: 539
Location: At the basketball court next to yours, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Doesnt change his legacy, at least in my opinion, still one of the best to play the game
_________________
Indianapolis Colts
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1978-2020
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2020 WORLD CHAMPION LAKERS!
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Illusions Johnson wrote: | I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order. |
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. |
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
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Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. |
A. I saw every game Magic ever played and many, many of Birds.
B. Your argument is fictional narrative derived from a POV that favors a certain World POV. Any argument that Kobe doesn't have that something special that allows teams to win is absurd.
C. I'll only give you one stat- 5. That's the number of rings Kobe has and the same that Magic has and two more than Bird has. And neither Magic or Bird ever won with rosters less full of talent than any of Kobe's 5 rings.
D. You want to talk about "it" then talk about pressure. No wing player in the history of the game has ever put so much pressure on the opposing team as Kobe. Pressure causes teams to wilt, fold and ultimately be dominated. Pressure is when you triple team a player off ball 30 feet from the basket. You've never seen that happen to ANYONE on the face of the planet except for Kobe. Not MJ, not Bird, not Magic, not any of the great big men and not LBJ.
E. So yeah, I've heard all of the generational arguments about how it's only the young Laker fans who think Kobe is better than Magic or Bird. Well, I saw them as much as anyone and I'll hold to my opinion. |
A couple of years ago, someone put together a poll of bball people (current & former players, coaches, execs, etc) and asked them to come up with a rating
MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, KAJ, Wilt followed by TD, Kobe, Shaq
Again, experienced bball people voting on this - not some overly emotional fanboys
and this list pretty much jives with polls conducted by CBSsports, ESPN, Foxsports, etc
Consistently almost exactly the same
Followed up by:
Last year, ESPN had one of their panels going where they had 4 guys in the studio and another 6 guys in the little remote screens they put up there. Several ex-coaches (I think JVG was one of them), current & former players, etc. They had a wide ranging discussion with 2 sections that pertained to Kobe.
1) "is Kobe as good as MJ" - no one (not a single 1) thought he was. One comment was "Kobe had his shot, and he came closer then any other guard, but he isn't as good as MJ." More telling was the general reaction to that - all 10 of those guys either agreed verbally or shook their heads in agreement with that assessment.
2) "Does Kobe rank in the top 5" - there were a couple of people that said yes, but the other 7-8 all said no. Then someone made a comment of "Kobe doesn't have that extra little effect on a team that Magic & Bird & MJ had where he could make the whole team better. Kobe's a great, great player - but he's just not in the same league with those guys". Every single one of the 10 people on that panel agreed with that specific comment
In your heart you obviously believe what you've said. The more experienced, knowledgeable, and less emotional bball people don't agree with you. That includes real bball people, not the "biased media" smokescreen LG'rs like to place the blame on. I'm sure you'll be able to pull up a quote or 3 (or 8) from bball people that do agree with you, but when you poll 200 of them in an unbiased pool it pretty much ends up with Kobe consistently in the 7/8/9 ranking - and will probably go down in history like that.
Worse yet for your messiah obsession, the simple nature of this kind of ranking says that sooner or later there will be another transcendent player who'll come along. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20...but, whenever that player comes along, all the "best individual skills" guys are going to get shuffled down that list. 30 or 50 years from now, Kobe might be out of the top 10 altogether, while Bird might be pushed down 8th and Magic might be 4th or something like that.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ZenMaster4President wrote: | | Black Salt wrote: | Shaq and Kobe's two Finals losses changed everything for them.
What separates Jordan from everyone else, that not many people talk about enough is 6-0. two 3-peats. 6 Finals MVPs. The reason why Joe Montana always has the upper hand over the Elways, Unitas' and brady's, is 4-0 in the Super Bowl, 3 mvps and 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
Imagine if Shaq had gone 6-0 in the finals. He would have won championships with 3 different teams and more than likely have 5 Finals MVPs.
Had Kobe gone 7-0 in the finals, 2 3-peats, 4 out of 5 titles. He would be a 3 time Finals MVP, would have beaten the Celtics twice and would have pushed the Lakers to the top spot in titles.
In Shaq and Kobe's two finals losses each, their teams were the favorite. So you cant say it was a Lebron in 2007 thing or AI in 2001.
I have said many times, had Shaq won all 6 of his finals appearances, I felt he would be #1 all time at the center position. No worse than two with Kareem being #1.
Kobe, would have undoubtedly be #2 AT WORST and in the top 5 had he gone 7-0. |
What kind of backwards logic is that?
How is 6 - 6 better than, say, 6 - 8?
6 - 6 means you got to the finals 2 LESS times while winning the same amount. % means jack in that scenario. Saying "Jordan never lost in the finals" is not that impressive when in reality it means "Jordan never loast in the finals, but lost a BUNCH of times in conference finals FAILING to get to the finals". |
Winning percentage in the finals is just a funky way for people to squish a square peg in a round hole. You're absolutely right, it means absolutely jack.
Not in a million years would going 1-1 in the finals (100%) ever be better than going 8-9 (89%).
I'll never understand how some people justify in their minds, that losing in the first round is BETTER than losing in the NBA finals. |
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44TheLogo
Star Player
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Illusions Johnson wrote: | I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order. |
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. |
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
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Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. |
A. I saw every game Magic ever played and many, many of Birds.
B. Your argument is fictional narrative derived from a POV that favors a certain World POV. Any argument that Kobe doesn't have that something special that allows teams to win is absurd.
C. I'll only give you one stat- 5. That's the number of rings Kobe has and the same that Magic has and two more than Bird has. And neither Magic or Bird ever won with rosters less full of talent than any of Kobe's 5 rings.
D. You want to talk about "it" then talk about pressure. No wing player in the history of the game has ever put so much pressure on the opposing team as Kobe. Pressure causes teams to wilt, fold and ultimately be dominated. Pressure is when you triple team a player off ball 30 feet from the basket. You've never seen that happen to ANYONE on the face of the planet except for Kobe. Not MJ, not Bird, not Magic, not any of the great big men and not LBJ.
E. So yeah, I've heard all of the generational arguments about how it's only the young Laker fans who think Kobe is better than Magic or Bird. Well, I saw them as much as anyone and I'll hold to my opinion. |
A couple of years ago, someone put together a poll of bball people (current & former players, coaches, execs, etc) and asked them to come up with a rating
MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, KAJ, Wilt followed by TD, Kobe, Shaq
Again, experienced bball people voting on this - not some overly emotional fanboys
and this list pretty much jives with polls conducted by CBSsports, ESPN, Foxsports, etc
Consistently almost exactly the same
Followed up by:
Last year, ESPN had one of their panels going where they had 4 guys in the studio and another 6 guys in the little remote screens they put up there. Several ex-coaches (I think JVG was one of them), current & former players, etc. They had a wide ranging discussion with 2 sections that pertained to Kobe.
1) "is Kobe as good as MJ" - no one (not a single 1) thought he was. One comment was "Kobe had his shot, and he came closer then any other guard, but he isn't as good as MJ." More telling was the general reaction to that - all 10 of those guys either agreed verbally or shook their heads in agreement with that assessment.
2) "Does Kobe rank in the top 5" - there were a couple of people that said yes, but the other 7-8 all said no. Then someone made a comment of "Kobe doesn't have that extra little effect on a team that Magic & Bird & MJ had where he could make the whole team better. Kobe's a great, great player - but he's just not in the same league with those guys". Every single one of the 10 people on that panel agreed with that specific comment
In your heart you obviously believe what you've said. The more experienced, knowledgeable, and less emotional bball people don't agree with you. That includes real bball people, not the "biased media" smokescreen LG'rs like to place the blame on. I'm sure you'll be able to pull up a quote or 3 (or 8) from bball people that do agree with you, but when you poll 200 of them in an unbiased pool it pretty much ends up with Kobe consistently in the 7/8/9 ranking - and will probably go down in history like that.
Worse yet for your messiah obsession, the simple nature of this kind of ranking says that sooner or later there will be another transcendent player who'll come along. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20...but, whenever that player comes along, all the "best individual skills" guys are going to get shuffled down that list. 30 or 50 years from now, Kobe might be out of the top 10 altogether, while Bird might be pushed down 8th and Magic might be 4th or something like that. |
dang man wow a polling of 10 people must be foolproof.
everyone has biases towards their own generation.
And regarding the Bill Simmons excerpt, why is inclusive genius any better than individual genius? In sport, it's all about wins. If you win more with your individualistic genius then you are better than someone who won less with their inclusive genius. To put more weight on what "kind" of genius it is reveals your own biases. Would you say Steve Nash is better than Kobe Bryant? No! But he is the poster boy for inclusivity and bringing his teammates up. Not to mention the fact that this narrative of Kobe or MJ being individualistic geniuses is just that, a narrative. They both made their teammates better as well.
Last edited by 44TheLogo on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shove-orange
Rookie
Joined: 19 Jul 2014
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Considering nobody including the most diehard of fans would put money on this team winning the finals this year and very few people see this team making the playoffs if Kobe were to come back from injury and win it all with this team he will be the undisputed 2nd best player all time. Jordan is Jordan and will always be #1 but Kobe if this were the case would have that same status as #2 in my opinion. |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: |
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A couple of years ago, someone put together a poll of bball people (current & former players, coaches, execs, etc) and asked them to come up with a rating
MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, KAJ, Wilt followed by TD, Kobe, Shaq
Again, experienced bball people voting on this - not some overly emotional fanboys
and this list pretty much jives with polls conducted by CBSsports, ESPN, Foxsports, etc
Consistently almost exactly the same
Followed up by:
Last year, ESPN had one of their panels going where they had 4 guys in the studio and another 6 guys in the little remote screens they put up there. Several ex-coaches (I think JVG was one of them), current & former players, etc. They had a wide ranging discussion with 2 sections that pertained to Kobe.
1) "is Kobe as good as MJ" - no one (not a single 1) thought he was. One comment was "Kobe had his shot, and he came closer then any other guard, but he isn't as good as MJ." More telling was the general reaction to that - all 10 of those guys either agreed verbally or shook their heads in agreement with that assessment.
2) "Does Kobe rank in the top 5" - there were a couple of people that said yes, but the other 7-8 all said no. Then someone made a comment of "Kobe doesn't have that extra little effect on a team that Magic & Bird & MJ had where he could make the whole team better. Kobe's a great, great player - but he's just not in the same league with those guys". Every single one of the 10 people on that panel agreed with that specific comment
In your heart you obviously believe what you've said. The more experienced, knowledgeable, and less emotional bball people don't agree with you. That includes real bball people, not the "biased media" smokescreen LG'rs like to place the blame on. I'm sure you'll be able to pull up a quote or 3 (or 8) from bball people that do agree with you, but when you poll 200 of them in an unbiased pool it pretty much ends up with Kobe consistently in the 7/8/9 ranking - and will probably go down in history like that.
Worse yet for your messiah obsession, the simple nature of this kind of ranking says that sooner or later there will be another transcendent player who'll come along. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20...but, whenever that player comes along, all the "best individual skills" guys are going to get shuffled down that list. 30 or 50 years from now, Kobe might be out of the top 10 altogether, while Bird might be pushed down 8th and Magic might be 4th or something like that. |
dang man wow a polling of 10 people must be foolproof.
everyone has biases towards their own generation.
And regarding the Bill Simmons excerpt, why is inclusive genius any better than individual genius? In sport, it's all about wins. If you win more with your individualistic genius then you are better than someone who won less with their inclusive genius. To put more weight on what "kind" of genius it is reveals your own biases. Would you say Steve Nash is better than Kobe Bryant? No! But he is the poster boy for inclusivity and bringing his teammates up. Not to mention the fact that this narrative of Kobe or MJ being individualistic geniuses is just that, a narrative. They both made their teammates better as well. |
I guess reading comprehension isn't a real strong point for you?
There are 2 different data points there
1) a poll conducted of 100's of bball people (and which correlates with other polls conducted by other sources, as I noted)
2) a ESPN show a year later conducted with 10 additional bball people.
I will give you points for a valiant but futile attempt to discredit multiple data points with a very emotional & entirely inaccurate attempt at deflection though.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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Fo11ower91
Rookie
Joined: 19 Jul 2014
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think we will even make the playoffs let alone win Kobe ring this season. Why even bother talking about it. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: |
Kareem was still the guy getting the ball when the games were tight in the final minutes, right up thru 1986. If we're talking numbers, Magic was like the 3rd leading scorer on those teams. . |
If we're talking "numbers," "numbers" is a plural word, so it isn't just scoring average. |
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Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. They rarely, if ever, mention Kareem's SIX championships, or his SIX Most Valuable Player awards, or the fact that he played for 20 seasons, and quite brilliantly save the last one or two (when he was in his 40s). They don't like to discuss the fact that he is the all-time leading scorer in the history of the pro game. That's only kind of like the all-time home run record in baseball prior to the steroids era.
But the media didn't like Kareem. And in fairness Kareem oft times didn't go out of his way to be liked by them. But it doesn't change what he accomplished as a basketball player. But in the end, they didn't like him, and he's now an afterthought, if he's even mentioned at all. And that's the way it will stay.
Within a few years following Kobe's retirement, the same fate will befall him. Because the dishonest media that spent 10 years pummeling the world with "Michael Jordan is God, and no dissent will be tolerated" decided early on that the brash young kid who had the GALL to suggest he'd like to go down as the greatest to ever play (a trait that is normally admired in great athletes) was not going to disrupt the "narrative" they had so carefully crafted for so long. No sir.
Look no further than their current absurd coverage of LeBron. Nobody is denying that he is a great player now. But according to some of the things I've read from his media acolytes, it's "OK" if he doesn't win in Cleveland. He's done enough. No wonder he left Miami, he didn't have enough "help" there. They went to four finals in a row, and won two in a row, both absurdly difficult achievements, and he was playing next to three guys who will likely be with him in the HOF one day. But he "didn't have enough help". I'll leave it to one's imagination what they would be saying about Kobe if he was 2-3 in the NBA Finals.
When Kobe was playing some of the greatest basketball ever "witnessed", but couldn't drag Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton across the finish line, he was a BUM. A Joke. A Loser who shot too much. It was all his fault.
The "narrative" on Kobe is already set in stone. If he wins another championship or three before he's done, it will matter not to the charlatans that dole out the "information" to the masses.
He is already an afterthought in their "narrative", and nothing is going to change that. |
This is an incredibly accurate description of many American Sports Fans. ESPN will never tell them to rate Kobe any higher than they see fit and very many american sports fans will rate him accordingly. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, they only go by the eyeball test, and Kobe passes that one EASILY. For the worldwide audience, Kobe is top 3 without a doubt. The American audience, that looks to ESPN to determine it's ranking, is the only one where Kobe falls outside of the Top 3.
To be fair, most worldwide fans didn't start watching basketball enmasse until the 90's, so legends of a prior era don't get near the credit they deserve. But from '96 forward, Kobe finishes no lower than 2nd in worldwide rankings, and only 3rd for those who have a particular affinity for either Magic or Kareem directly below MJ.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Illusions Johnson wrote: | I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order. |
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. |
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
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Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. |
A. I saw every game Magic ever played and many, many of Birds.
B. Your argument is fictional narrative derived from a POV that favors a certain World POV. Any argument that Kobe doesn't have that something special that allows teams to win is absurd.
C. I'll only give you one stat- 5. That's the number of rings Kobe has and the same that Magic has and two more than Bird has. And neither Magic or Bird ever won with rosters less full of talent than any of Kobe's 5 rings.
D. You want to talk about "it" then talk about pressure. No wing player in the history of the game has ever put so much pressure on the opposing team as Kobe. Pressure causes teams to wilt, fold and ultimately be dominated. Pressure is when you triple team a player off ball 30 feet from the basket. You've never seen that happen to ANYONE on the face of the planet except for Kobe. Not MJ, not Bird, not Magic, not any of the great big men and not LBJ.
E. So yeah, I've heard all of the generational arguments about how it's only the young Laker fans who think Kobe is better than Magic or Bird. Well, I saw them as much as anyone and I'll hold to my opinion. |
A couple of years ago, someone put together a poll of bball people (current & former players, coaches, execs, etc) and asked them to come up with a rating
MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, KAJ, Wilt followed by TD, Kobe, Shaq
Again, experienced bball people voting on this - not some overly emotional fanboys
and this list pretty much jives with polls conducted by CBSsports, ESPN, Foxsports, etc
Consistently almost exactly the same
Followed up by:
Last year, ESPN had one of their panels going where they had 4 guys in the studio and another 6 guys in the little remote screens they put up there. Several ex-coaches (I think JVG was one of them), current & former players, etc. They had a wide ranging discussion with 2 sections that pertained to Kobe.
1) "is Kobe as good as MJ" - no one (not a single 1) thought he was. One comment was "Kobe had his shot, and he came closer then any other guard, but he isn't as good as MJ." More telling was the general reaction to that - all 10 of those guys either agreed verbally or shook their heads in agreement with that assessment.
2) "Does Kobe rank in the top 5" - there were a couple of people that said yes, but the other 7-8 all said no. Then someone made a comment of "Kobe doesn't have that extra little effect on a team that Magic & Bird & MJ had where he could make the whole team better. Kobe's a great, great player - but he's just not in the same league with those guys". Every single one of the 10 people on that panel agreed with that specific comment
In your heart you obviously believe what you've said. The more experienced, knowledgeable, and less emotional bball people don't agree with you. That includes real bball people, not the "biased media" smokescreen LG'rs like to place the blame on. I'm sure you'll be able to pull up a quote or 3 (or 8) from bball people that do agree with you, but when you poll 200 of them in an unbiased pool it pretty much ends up with Kobe consistently in the 7/8/9 ranking - and will probably go down in history like that.
Worse yet for your messiah obsession, the simple nature of this kind of ranking says that sooner or later there will be another transcendent player who'll come along. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20...but, whenever that player comes along, all the "best individual skills" guys are going to get shuffled down that list. 30 or 50 years from now, Kobe might be out of the top 10 altogether, while Bird might be pushed down 8th and Magic might be 4th or something like that. |
A. There was no need for the personal attack.
B. Did you say ESPN? I frankly don't care who shills for ESPN. And I don't care who they stack a panel with. There are enough people with equal qualifications who believe as I do to make the ESPN panel a collective "One opinion."
C. if John Wooden says that Kobe is the greatest basketeball player he has ever seen, and he wasn't shilling or rubbing elbows with the evil corporation, then, I feel I have enough backing for my opinion.
D. You never addressed the basketball part of my post. Did any of those guys ever talk about the pressure of such a relentless force? I doubt it. It's simple. ESPN created a narrative, those guys want to be part of the herd for all of the perks and then, narrative becomes truth. Problem is, I don't but it and many don't as well.
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. As to Bird and Magic, that's just not even relevant to the discussion. Those guys played one side of the ball.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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Illusions Johnson
Rookie
Joined: 15 Jul 2014
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| You know who also thinks ESPN is biased against their favorite team or favorite players? Fans of every other team or player. |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Illusions Johnson wrote: | I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order. |
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. |
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
---------------------
Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. |
A. I saw every game Magic ever played and many, many of Birds.
B. Your argument is fictional narrative derived from a POV that favors a certain World POV. Any argument that Kobe doesn't have that something special that allows teams to win is absurd.
C. I'll only give you one stat- 5. That's the number of rings Kobe has and the same that Magic has and two more than Bird has. And neither Magic or Bird ever won with rosters less full of talent than any of Kobe's 5 rings.
D. You want to talk about "it" then talk about pressure. No wing player in the history of the game has ever put so much pressure on the opposing team as Kobe. Pressure causes teams to wilt, fold and ultimately be dominated. Pressure is when you triple team a player off ball 30 feet from the basket. You've never seen that happen to ANYONE on the face of the planet except for Kobe. Not MJ, not Bird, not Magic, not any of the great big men and not LBJ.
E. So yeah, I've heard all of the generational arguments about how it's only the young Laker fans who think Kobe is better than Magic or Bird. Well, I saw them as much as anyone and I'll hold to my opinion. |
A couple of years ago, someone put together a poll of bball people (current & former players, coaches, execs, etc) and asked them to come up with a rating
MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, KAJ, Wilt followed by TD, Kobe, Shaq
Again, experienced bball people voting on this - not some overly emotional fanboys
and this list pretty much jives with polls conducted by CBSsports, ESPN, Foxsports, etc
Consistently almost exactly the same
Followed up by:
Last year, ESPN had one of their panels going where they had 4 guys in the studio and another 6 guys in the little remote screens they put up there. Several ex-coaches (I think JVG was one of them), current & former players, etc. They had a wide ranging discussion with 2 sections that pertained to Kobe.
1) "is Kobe as good as MJ" - no one (not a single 1) thought he was. One comment was "Kobe had his shot, and he came closer then any other guard, but he isn't as good as MJ." More telling was the general reaction to that - all 10 of those guys either agreed verbally or shook their heads in agreement with that assessment.
2) "Does Kobe rank in the top 5" - there were a couple of people that said yes, but the other 7-8 all said no. Then someone made a comment of "Kobe doesn't have that extra little effect on a team that Magic & Bird & MJ had where he could make the whole team better. Kobe's a great, great player - but he's just not in the same league with those guys". Every single one of the 10 people on that panel agreed with that specific comment
In your heart you obviously believe what you've said. The more experienced, knowledgeable, and less emotional bball people don't agree with you. That includes real bball people, not the "biased media" smokescreen LG'rs like to place the blame on. I'm sure you'll be able to pull up a quote or 3 (or 8) from bball people that do agree with you, but when you poll 200 of them in an unbiased pool it pretty much ends up with Kobe consistently in the 7/8/9 ranking - and will probably go down in history like that.
Worse yet for your messiah obsession, the simple nature of this kind of ranking says that sooner or later there will be another transcendent player who'll come along. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20...but, whenever that player comes along, all the "best individual skills" guys are going to get shuffled down that list. 30 or 50 years from now, Kobe might be out of the top 10 altogether, while Bird might be pushed down 8th and Magic might be 4th or something like that. |
A. There was no need for the personal attack.
B. Did you say ESPN? I frankly don't care who shills for ESPN. And I don't care who they stack a panel with. There are enough people with equal qualifications who believe as I do to make the ESPN panel a collective "One opinion."
C. if John Wooden says that Kobe is the greatest basketeball player he has ever seen, and he wasn't shilling or rubbing elbows with the evil corporation, then, I feel I have enough backing for my opinion.
D. You never addressed the basketball part of my post. Did any of those guys ever talk about the pressure of such a relentless force? I doubt it. It's simple. ESPN created a narrative, those guys want to be part of the herd for all of the perks and then, narrative becomes truth. Problem is, I don't but it and many don't as well.
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. As to Bird and Magic, that's just not even relevant to the discussion. Those guys played one side of the ball. |
To be fair, no one has officially reported or authenticated that John Wooden said what he purported to have said about Kobe. It's not published anywhere, or documented, it's just some person say he heard him say those things.
If I understand the situation correctly, there is no recording, there is no documentation or authentication of the claim, just some comedian said that John Wooden said what he allegedly said he said over eggs and tater tots or something. |
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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | To be fair, no one has officially reported or authenticated that John Wooden said what he purported to have said about Kobe. It's not published anywhere, or documented, it's just some person say he heard him say those things.
If I understand the situation correctly, there is no recording, there is no documentation or authentication of the claim, just some comedian said that John Wooden said what he allegedly said he said over eggs and tater tots or something. |
That's correct. |
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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: |
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. |
Well, that settles it. |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Illusions Johnson wrote: | I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order. |
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. |
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
---------------------
Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. |
A. I saw every game Magic ever played and many, many of Birds.
B. Your argument is fictional narrative derived from a POV that favors a certain World POV. Any argument that Kobe doesn't have that something special that allows teams to win is absurd.
C. I'll only give you one stat- 5. That's the number of rings Kobe has and the same that Magic has and two more than Bird has. And neither Magic or Bird ever won with rosters less full of talent than any of Kobe's 5 rings.
D. You want to talk about "it" then talk about pressure. No wing player in the history of the game has ever put so much pressure on the opposing team as Kobe. Pressure causes teams to wilt, fold and ultimately be dominated. Pressure is when you triple team a player off ball 30 feet from the basket. You've never seen that happen to ANYONE on the face of the planet except for Kobe. Not MJ, not Bird, not Magic, not any of the great big men and not LBJ.
E. So yeah, I've heard all of the generational arguments about how it's only the young Laker fans who think Kobe is better than Magic or Bird. Well, I saw them as much as anyone and I'll hold to my opinion. |
A couple of years ago, someone put together a poll of bball people (current & former players, coaches, execs, etc) and asked them to come up with a rating
MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, KAJ, Wilt followed by TD, Kobe, Shaq
Again, experienced bball people voting on this - not some overly emotional fanboys
and this list pretty much jives with polls conducted by CBSsports, ESPN, Foxsports, etc
Consistently almost exactly the same
Followed up by:
Last year, ESPN had one of their panels going where they had 4 guys in the studio and another 6 guys in the little remote screens they put up there. Several ex-coaches (I think JVG was one of them), current & former players, etc. They had a wide ranging discussion with 2 sections that pertained to Kobe.
1) "is Kobe as good as MJ" - no one (not a single 1) thought he was. One comment was "Kobe had his shot, and he came closer then any other guard, but he isn't as good as MJ." More telling was the general reaction to that - all 10 of those guys either agreed verbally or shook their heads in agreement with that assessment.
2) "Does Kobe rank in the top 5" - there were a couple of people that said yes, but the other 7-8 all said no. Then someone made a comment of "Kobe doesn't have that extra little effect on a team that Magic & Bird & MJ had where he could make the whole team better. Kobe's a great, great player - but he's just not in the same league with those guys". Every single one of the 10 people on that panel agreed with that specific comment
In your heart you obviously believe what you've said. The more experienced, knowledgeable, and less emotional bball people don't agree with you. That includes real bball people, not the "biased media" smokescreen LG'rs like to place the blame on. I'm sure you'll be able to pull up a quote or 3 (or 8) from bball people that do agree with you, but when you poll 200 of them in an unbiased pool it pretty much ends up with Kobe consistently in the 7/8/9 ranking - and will probably go down in history like that.
Worse yet for your messiah obsession, the simple nature of this kind of ranking says that sooner or later there will be another transcendent player who'll come along. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20...but, whenever that player comes along, all the "best individual skills" guys are going to get shuffled down that list. 30 or 50 years from now, Kobe might be out of the top 10 altogether, while Bird might be pushed down 8th and Magic might be 4th or something like that. |
A. There was no need for the personal attack.
B. Did you say ESPN? I frankly don't care who shills for ESPN. And I don't care who they stack a panel with. There are enough people with equal qualifications who believe as I do to make the ESPN panel a collective "One opinion."
C. if John Wooden says that Kobe is the greatest basketeball player he has ever seen, and he wasn't shilling or rubbing elbows with the evil corporation, then, I feel I have enough backing for my opinion.
D. You never addressed the basketball part of my post. Did any of those guys ever talk about the pressure of such a relentless force? I doubt it. It's simple. ESPN created a narrative, those guys want to be part of the herd for all of the perks and then, narrative becomes truth. Problem is, I don't but it and many don't as well.
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. As to Bird and Magic, that's just not even relevant to the discussion. Those guys played one side of the ball. |
1. there was no personal attack at all.
2. You take the same approach repeatedly - if something doesn't agree with your opinion, discount them as biased or something like that. Multiple polls, from multiple different sources, all consistently saying the same thing makes any attempt by you to discount it as "ESPN" bias is beyond ridiculous.
3. John Wooden is one person..admittedly he was something for a bball genius. Back in 1965. And you are asserting he said that, when in actuality it was 3rd hand - as in someone else, sometime after the fact, is quoted as saying John Wooden said that. 3rd hand information isn't even allowed in a court of law because it's so completely unreliable. Find a video clip of Wooden saying that, then I'll believe it. In the meantime, Wooden was FAMOUS for a team first & team skills mindset. Magic, Bird, and TD ALL fit Wooden's concept of a great bball player better. Until you can produce a video or sound clip of John Wooden actually saying that, I call bullbleep.
4. All those other analysts, coaches, high-powered execs and people from other sports networks are going to be swayed by an imaginary ESPN bias? Not a chance in hell, but you are welcome to keep believing that since it fits in well with the rest of the persecuted messiah narrative you're in love with.
5. Could not care less, nor could I associate any specific validity to any poster on a Lakers centric forum to be impartial wrt skills & legacy of a Laker player. The bias there is so obvious as to be laughable.
6. wrt Bird & Magic playing only 1 side of the ball - that's laughable also, and kind of like the kettle saying the pot is black. They weren't world class defenders, but they were pretty good. By comparison, for a short period of his career Kobe was all defense (about 10 years ago) - but for better then half his career he's taken over 1/2 the games in any season off from a D standpoint and has been something of a defensive liability with both non-effort and continued attempst to blitz passing lanes for steals. Weighing one against the other, someone might be able to say the comparo between those sets of data (magic&bird vs Kobe) can be a tie...or tilts the other way even. It's been a long long time since Kobe was a defensive stopper for more then 1 game out of 5 or 6, but people here talk like it's still 2001. (yeah, yeah, yeah...we'll hear from everyone about how he has to use all his energy on offense to carry LAL for the last 10 years. Again, this is me, me, me vs team - which just goes further to make the case).
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Last edited by P.K. on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: |
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. |
Well, that settles it. |
Frankly, PnP knows more about basketball than almost anyone here.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: |
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. |
Well, that settles it. |
Frankly, PnP knows more about basketball than almost anyone here. |
Your first statement makes your second statement suspect. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: |
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. |
Well, that settles it. |
Frankly, PnP knows more about basketball than almost anyone here. |
Your first statement makes your second statement suspect. |
PnP is the god of those who think the refs are conspiring against them; the media has in for them; the way things are now is easier than the way it was in the past.
PnP is a guy who writes unreadably long posts filled with inaccurate "facts" and stats that he has literally made up.
To fight against PnP is to spit into the wind; it is to argue against conspiracy theories; it is to argue against the idea that the media is all of one mind and against you; it is to argue against the idea that your team or your guy would have won 99.9999% of the time except for those who cheated him.
It is to argue the Superego against the Id. Because PnP is the Id.
And now, for no particular reason, and in no way relating to any LG poser, I will quote Mark Twain, because we can all agree he was a great writer: “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: |
E. PnP has, on numerous occasions shown why Kobe is better than MJ. |
Well, that settles it. |
Frankly, PnP knows more about basketball than almost anyone here. |
Your first statement makes your second statement suspect. |
PnP is the god of those who think the refs are conspiring against them; the media has in for them; the way things are now is easier than the way it was in the past.
PnP is a guy who writes unreadably long posts filled with inaccurate "facts" and stats that he has literally made up.
To fight against PnP is to spit into the wind; it is to argue against conspiracy theories; it is to argue against the idea that the media is all of one mind and against you; it is to argue against the idea that your team or your guy would have won 99.9999% of the time except for those who cheated him.
It is to argue the Superego against the Id. Because PnP is the Id.
And now, for no particular reason, and in no way relating to any LG poser, I will quote Mark Twain, because we can all agree he was a great writer: “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” |
To be fair, you are not impartial on the matter being a member of the third estate.
In any case, I am not amazed but certainly irritated that PnP seems to be a legitimate punching bag here.
As to Mark Twain. He was very good, but he was not great. Great is Morrison or Faulkner for example. It seems that your disclaimer immediately after your comments on PnP is hollow and disingenious. But hey, that's just me.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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