I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order.
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Small Forwards
0 Nick Young SF 29 6-7 210 USC (Starter)
11 Wes Johnson SF 27 6' 7", 215
7 Xavier Henry SF 23 6' 6", 220 lbs
Power Forwards
4 Ryan Kelly PF 23 6-11 230 Duke
30 Julius Randle PF 19 6-9 250 Kentucky
00 Ed Davis PF 25 6-10 225 North Carolina
00 Carlos Boozer PF 33 6-9 266 Duke (Starter)
Centers
50 Robert Sacre C 25 7-0 260 Gonzaga
27 Jordan Hill PF/C 26 6-10 235 Arizona (Starter) _________________ "Bobbin' and weavin' and let the good get even"
The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. They rarely, if ever, mention Kareem's SIX championships, or his SIX Most Valuable Player awards, or the fact that he played for 20 seasons, and quite brilliantly save the last one or two (when he was in his 40s). They don't like to discuss the fact that he is the all-time leading scorer in the history of the pro game. That's only kind of like the all-time home run record in baseball prior to the steroids era.
But the media didn't like Kareem. And in fairness Kareem oft times didn't go out of his way to be liked by them. But it doesn't change what he accomplished as a basketball player. But in the end, they didn't like him, and he's now an afterthought, if he's even mentioned at all. And that's the way it will stay.
Within a few years following Kobe's retirement, the same fate will befall him. Because the dishonest media that spent 10 years pummeling the world with "Michael Jordan is God, and no dissent will be tolerated" decided early on that the brash young kid who had the GALL to suggest he'd like to go down as the greatest to ever play (a trait that is normally admired in great athletes) was not going to disrupt the "narrative" they had so carefully crafted for so long. No sir.
Look no further than their current absurd coverage of LeBron. Nobody is denying that he is a great player now. But according to some of the things I've read from his media acolytes, it's "OK" if he doesn't win in Cleveland. He's done enough. No wonder he left Miami, he didn't have enough "help" there. They went to four finals in a row, and won two in a row, both absurdly difficult achievements, and he was playing next to three guys who will likely be with him in the HOF one day. But he "didn't have enough help". I'll leave it to one's imagination what they would be saying about Kobe if he was 2-3 in the NBA Finals.
When Kobe was playing some of the greatest basketball ever "witnessed", but couldn't drag Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton across the finish line, he was a BUM. A Joke. A Loser who shot too much. It was all his fault.
The "narrative" on Kobe is already set in stone. If he wins another championship or three before he's done, it will matter not to the charlatans that dole out the "information" to the masses.
He is already an afterthought in their "narrative", and nothing is going to change that.
It seems like you're implying that the media treats LeBron with kid gloves while being heavy-handed with Kobe and, while I agree that Kobe hasn't always received fair coverage, no player has received as much negative coverage as LeBron over the last five years.
I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order.
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats.
I feel the same way, but in reverse. I think if you did a startup draft using all players, both Magic and Bird would go ahead of Kobe, assuming it's relative to the era they played.
That said, Kobe is still an all time great and would be one of the first ten players taken.
The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. t.
I'd say Magic passed Kareem by the second ring together. Magic even out rebounded Kareem that year. And that's not a knock on Kareem. He was still a great player, but by the second ring he was 34 years old and beginning the downslide of his career.
Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 3286 Location: Low Post Rate
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject:
He'll rank as one of the twelve the luckiest players in NBA history. _________________ "We got a new universe coming and he's going to control all our universes. We're going to put our universes together" - Metta World Peace
The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. They rarely, if ever, mention Kareem's SIX championships, or his SIX Most Valuable Player awards, or the fact that he played for 20 seasons, and quite brilliantly save the last one or two (when he was in his 40s). They don't like to discuss the fact that he is the all-time leading scorer in the history of the pro game. That's only kind of like the all-time home run record in baseball prior to the steroids era.
But the media didn't like Kareem. And in fairness Kareem oft times didn't go out of his way to be liked by them. But it doesn't change what he accomplished as a basketball player. But in the end, they didn't like him, and he's now an afterthought, if he's even mentioned at all. And that's the way it will stay.
Within a few years following Kobe's retirement, the same fate will befall him. Because the dishonest media that spent 10 years pummeling the world with "Michael Jordan is God, and no dissent will be tolerated" decided early on that the brash young kid who had the GALL to suggest he'd like to go down as the greatest to ever play (a trait that is normally admired in great athletes) was not going to disrupt the "narrative" they had so carefully crafted for so long. No sir.
Look no further than their current absurd coverage of LeBron. Nobody is denying that he is a great player now. But according to some of the things I've read from his media acolytes, it's "OK" if he doesn't win in Cleveland. He's done enough. No wonder he left Miami, he didn't have enough "help" there. They went to four finals in a row, and won two in a row, both absurdly difficult achievements, and he was playing next to three guys who will likely be with him in the HOF one day. But he "didn't have enough help". I'll leave it to one's imagination what they would be saying about Kobe if he was 2-3 in the NBA Finals.
When Kobe was playing some of the greatest basketball ever "witnessed", but couldn't drag Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton across the finish line, he was a BUM. A Joke. A Loser who shot too much. It was all his fault.
The "narrative" on Kobe is already set in stone. If he wins another championship or three before he's done, it will matter not to the charlatans that dole out the "information" to the masses.
He is already an afterthought in their "narrative", and nothing is going to change that.
imo, Colorado had something to do with this as well. the media doesn't like its superstars with that kind of 'colorado' incident in their past, whether it was true or not. Same thing happened to Roethlisberger in the NFL, he had a similar incident occur, which was never proven, the accusation was even retracted I believe. But now he's tagged with that incident and his skilled are marginalized by the media. As a result he's ranked lower then Tony freakin Romo of all people (who's never won anything), even though Big Ben has two superbowl wins, the same as Tom Brady and one more than Peyton Manning.
Skillwise, Kobe is up their with MJ, he is clearly better than James. But your absolutely right, the media don't want us to know that.
Last edited by Goldenwest on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4377 Location: Lake Nacimiento
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:14 pm Post subject:
Illusions Johnson wrote:
It seems like you're implying that the media treats LeBron with kid gloves while being heavy-handed with Kobe and, while I agree that Kobe hasn't always received fair coverage, no player has received as much negative coverage as LeBron over the last five years.
when kobe had the trial and all that going on he was levels higher then lebron ever was on the hate scale.. it's not even close, that was a brutal time as a laker fan with people constantly spewing all there hate and still do today.. imo that was the event that pretty much killed kobe ever being the goat in many peoples eyes, no matter what he did/does.. it's messed up but true.. i still hear people today call him a rapist pretty regularly...
me personally, kobe is my choice for greatest player of all time but i can still see the reality outside of my opinion...
i absolutely under no circumstance understand larry bird being ahead of kobe though, thats just silly.. the rest of the common top players i can understand arguments being made though...
I agree about the trial, but there are also some valid criticisms of Kobe that I think a lot of us take as some type of media agenda. I guarantee that the majority of members of the media would agree that he's one of the ten best players of all time.
LeBron, there are a lot of criticisms of him and his game that are fair, but there were a ton more that stemmed from anger after the Decision.
In terms of fans, they're going to like or dislike whoever they want for whatever reasons they want.
I had the unfortunate luck of having to live in Massachusetts many, many years ago and I, more than most, would like nothing better than for all of their teams and players to suck. That said, anyone who doesn't think Larry belongs in a conversation with Kobe either didn't watch him, isn't comparing them relative to their era or has a bias.
I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order.
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats.
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
---------------------
Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 1737 Location: San Francisco, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:43 am Post subject:
P.K. wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Illusions Johnson wrote:
I think some are downplaying what a feat it would be to win with this team. Anything is possible, but this isn't a team built to win now.
I have him as the third best Laker ever and I don't think a championship would change that, but if they win, it will probably be in a much more spectacular fashion than I can imagine and I might reconsider after actually experiencing it. Or it could be the opposite, where Kobe reduces his role and enables other players to do what we didn't know they were capable of.
As of now, I rate them:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
...and then fill it out with Duncan, Kobe, Shaquille and Hakeem in some order.
It still amazes me that people put Magic and Bird ahead of Kobe on any lists of all time greats.
People that saw Bird & Magic play a lot wouldn't be amazed by that at all. Both were transcendent players who's abilities raised their entire team to levels that haven't really been seen before or since.
A short section of an article that sums this up pretty well
"Bird and Magic went the other way — if they made their teammates better, it gave them a better chance to win. Like Jordan, they were basketball savants who possessed a supernatural feel for what should happen collectively on every play, as if they had already studied the play’s blueprint and come up with a plan of attack. Unlike Jordan, their genius was inclusive — just by playing with them day after day, their teammates started seeing the court like they did. Bird’s first Celtics coach, Bill Fitch, affectionately nicknamed Bird “Kodak,” explaining to a writer that Bird’s “mind is constantly taking pictures of the whole court.” You could have said that about Magic, too. That’s what made them such devastating passers; they always knew where every teammate would be.
And maybe it took a few years, but Bird and Magic parlayed that particular gift into something more meaningful. Bird learned how to fully harness “it” during the 1984-85 season; for Magic, “it” didn’t happen until two seasons later. And here’s what “it” is. Each guy could assess any basketball game — in the moment, on the fly — and determine exactly what his team needed."
---------------------
Kobe was a spectacular individual skills player, possibly 2nd or 3rd all time. But basketball is a team game, and Bird had "IT" that Magic had and Jordan had. When they were playing, they took their teams to levels not seen before or since either.
Kobe doesn't have it - sure as hell, 20 people here will start up with a bunch of examples or stats they think prove this wrong, and there's no doubt they'll truly believe that. If they yell loud enough, they'll convince themselves even more.
The reason most bball people continue to rate the top 6 higher then Kobe is because they generally understand what they were seeing - guys with transcendent games who completely transformed the game. Best "basketball" players of all times, not best individual skills players of all time.
And this is why you see Kobe generally rated 7/8/9th in a group with Shaq & TD -- 1 notch below those top guys in a group with all the other great individual skills players.
It has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, and everything to do what they did on the court.
Some things I genuinely want answered when reading this.
1 - Why is era-relevance a thing? To me, if Larry Bird played today he wouldn't be close to considered a 'legend'. Even back then when he was on top he only won 3 rings, I don't understand how he's so transcendent and amazing when he only won 3 rings during a time when there were only 3 teams capable of winning a championship.
2 - Why does being a 'transcendent' or 'innovative' player make you one of the best ever? We're talking about basketball players, I never got the argument that 'because X player was first of his kind he's the best'! That's so illogical to me, just because someone started something doesn't' mean they are the best and should be considered better than those that do it better. Certainly give them credit for being the ones to start something but don't say they are the best at it just because they started it.
3 - The argument that Jordan made his teammates so much better is a bit hard for me to understand. You're talking about a team that when Jordan didn't play a single game still got to game 7 of the ECF without him. How much better did he actually make them when they can damn near get to the finals without him? Same with Larry and Magic, you take them off of their teams and their teams are still #1 and #2 in the league. I'm not really sure how you can quantify their ability to make their teammates better when they have the best teams in the league even without them.
1 - Why is era-relevance a thing? To me, if Larry Bird played today he wouldn't be close to considered a 'legend'. Even back then when he was on top he only won 3 rings, I don't understand how he's so transcendent and amazing when he only won 3 rings during a time when there were only 3 teams capable of winning a championship.
Bird (and Magic) would still be great in the modern era. He was a clutch player, who elevated his game when it mattered the most. He won 3 MVPs in 6 years not only for his scoring but his all around game. It's tough to compare across eras but it's hard to imagine that his game wouldn't still translate. The guy led the league in three pointers (twice), in free throw percentage (4 times), in minutes (twice), in PER (twice). He was also a perennial top 10 player in points, rebounds and three point percentage, while having a career 6.3 assist average as a forward, being top ten in steals twice, and making three all-defensive teams. If Kevin Love can put up the kind of numbers that he can post, Larry Bird could absolutely still dominate. Same goes with Magic.
Kobe is certainly great, not going to argue otherwise. He's much more in the Jordan mold, though not quite on par with MJ. Magic and Bird would still be great today, just in a very different way from those two. Me personally, I prefer the Magic and Bird route. Doesn't make it any better or worse though. In the end the results are what matters, and all four guys had a ton of success. I don't think you can discount Bird as only wining three titles though, that was an era of great teams. The Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, and then later the Pistons were all powerhouse teams. In the end I think when you talk top ten players (and Kobe is certainly in that group) you can make arguments for all of them.
It seems like you're implying that the media treats LeBron with kid gloves while being heavy-handed with Kobe and, while I agree that Kobe hasn't always received fair coverage, no player has received as much negative coverage as LeBron over the last five years.
I'm not implying it, I'm coming right out with it.
The media was hard on LeBron around the time of "the decision", but that's way in the rear-view mirror now. Their coverage of him today is the most fawning we've seen since the days of MJ, and frankly I'm not sure MJ ever even had it this good with the media. They have completely jumped the shark on LeBron now, and I don't see that trend reversing.
But my primary point is their very purposeful attempts to minimize the incredible career and achievements of Kobe Bryant.
The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. t.
I'd say Magic passed Kareem by the second ring together. Magic even out rebounded Kareem that year. And that's not a knock on Kareem. He was still a great player, but by the second ring he was 34 years old and beginning the downslide of his career.
Kareem was still the guy getting the ball when the games were tight in the final minutes, right up thru 1986. If we're talking numbers, Magic was like the 3rd leading scorer on those teams. And certainly he could have been scoring more had it been required of him, just as Kareem could have rebounded more. But it also bears noting that Kareem is 12 years older than Magic and had a lot of hard NBA miles on his body by the time Earv showed up as a young pup.
After the beat-down they suffered to Houston in the 86 playoffs, Riley sat down with Kareem, and the torch was rightfully passed.
As an aside, Kareem was also the MVP of the 1985 Finals at age 38. That won't ever happen again.
The script is already being written by the dishonest members of the media. The "Kareem-ization" of Kobe has already begun.
Kareem is an afterthought today when the media is telling the story. In their telling he was basically just a role player for Magic's Team, despite his being the best player on the team for the first 3 of "Magic's 5" championships. They rarely, if ever, mention Kareem's SIX championships, or his SIX Most Valuable Player awards, or the fact that he played for 20 seasons, and quite brilliantly save the last one or two (when he was in his 40s). They don't like to discuss the fact that he is the all-time leading scorer in the history of the pro game. That's only kind of like the all-time home run record in baseball prior to the steroids era.
But the media didn't like Kareem. And in fairness Kareem oft times didn't go out of his way to be liked by them. But it doesn't change what he accomplished as a basketball player. But in the end, they didn't like him, and he's now an afterthought, if he's even mentioned at all. And that's the way it will stay.
Within a few years following Kobe's retirement, the same fate will befall him. Because the dishonest media that spent 10 years pummeling the world with "Michael Jordan is God, and no dissent will be tolerated" decided early on that the brash young kid who had the GALL to suggest he'd like to go down as the greatest to ever play (a trait that is normally admired in great athletes) was not going to disrupt the "narrative" they had so carefully crafted for so long. No sir.
Look no further than their current absurd coverage of LeBron. Nobody is denying that he is a great player now. But according to some of the things I've read from his media acolytes, it's "OK" if he doesn't win in Cleveland. He's done enough. No wonder he left Miami, he didn't have enough "help" there. They went to four finals in a row, and won two in a row, both absurdly difficult achievements, and he was playing next to three guys who will likely be with him in the HOF one day. But he "didn't have enough help". I'll leave it to one's imagination what they would be saying about Kobe if he was 2-3 in the NBA Finals.
When Kobe was playing some of the greatest basketball ever "witnessed", but couldn't drag Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton across the finish line, he was a BUM. A Joke. A Loser who shot too much. It was all his fault.
The "narrative" on Kobe is already set in stone. If he wins another championship or three before he's done, it will matter not to the charlatans that dole out the "information" to the masses.
He is already an afterthought in their "narrative", and nothing is going to change that.
imo, Colorado had something to do with this as well. the media doesn't like its superstars with that kind of 'colorado' incident in their past, whether it was true or not. Same thing happened to Roethlisberger in the NFL, he had a similar incident occur, which was never proven, the accusation was even retracted I believe. But now he's tagged with that incident and his skilled are marginalized by the media. As a result he's ranked lower then Tony freakin Romo of all people (who's never won anything), even though Big Ben has two superbowl wins, the same as Tom Brady and one more than Peyton Manning.
Skillwise, Kobe is up their with MJ, he is clearly better than James. But your absolutely right, the media don't want us to know that.
Agreed, Colorado hurt him and understandably so. But the narrative had begun forming before that. The media already was already down on him prior to that. But once that happened it definitely got worse, no question.
1 - Why is era-relevance a thing? To me, if Larry Bird played today he wouldn't be close to considered a 'legend'. Even back then when he was on top he only won 3 rings, I don't understand how he's so transcendent and amazing when he only won 3 rings during a time when there were only 3 teams capable of winning a championship.
Bird (and Magic) would still be great in the modern era. He was a clutch player, who elevated his game when it mattered the most. He won 3 MVPs in 6 years not only for his scoring but his all around game. It's tough to compare across eras but it's hard to imagine that his game wouldn't still translate. The guy led the league in three pointers (twice), in free throw percentage (4 times), in minutes (twice), in PER (twice). He was also a perennial top 10 player in points, rebounds and three point percentage, while having a career 6.3 assist average as a forward, being top ten in steals twice, and making three all-defensive teams. If Kevin Love can put up the kind of numbers that he can post, Larry Bird could absolutely still dominate. Same goes with Magic.
Kobe is certainly great, not going to argue otherwise. He's much more in the Jordan mold, though not quite on par with MJ. Magic and Bird would still be great today, just in a very different way from those two. Me personally, I prefer the Magic and Bird route. Doesn't make it any better or worse though. In the end the results are what matters, and all four guys had a ton of success. I don't think you can discount Bird as only wining three titles though, that was an era of great teams. The Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, and then later the Pistons were all powerhouse teams. In the end I think when you talk top ten players (and Kobe is certainly in that group) you can make arguments for all of them.
Relative to the era they played in is important in the discussion because athletes, technology, training, science, etc., have all advanced considerably since their era (and considerably more since Wilt and Russell).
I agree that Magic and Bird would be great today. They'd also be different today because they'd have the same benefits of modern technology and training that today's players have. But we don't have an example of them in this current landscape, only in the past one and that has to be taken into account when comparing players across different eras.
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