Dwight Howard can't even recruit his old teamates : Houston is not a hot destination for free agents.
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Telleris
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
Telleris wrote:
Drifts wrote:
I am wondering how Morey is putting moneyball in place in his recruiting system... basically, he's been running after big name free agents just like the other teams.


In basketball, there are artificial salary restrictions on two types of players, stars and rookies

So the best value players are, stars and rookies

Finding gems in the rough has become a lot harder because everyone else has advanced on that front (it's similar to how for several years the Spurs had a huge competitive advantage on unknown euros in the draft, but the chances of a Ginobili or Parker slipping today is next to none)

Baseball is a whole different story, with no cap, no floor and some of the most absurd salary structures in all of sports.

The other side of that is that it's a soft cap, so when you blow the cap, you probably want to do it in as grandiose a fashion as possible, once you hit the luxury tax, there's really no wiggle room anymore since you're locked into only the mmle which is received for old or scrub, neither which is ever going to make a team a 1st seed from a 4th seed.

While Morey has become a lightning rod, it's more a case of what you could call the Boston school, of which there are 4 gms in the league, Ainge (obviously), Morey, Hinkie (Philly) and Mcdonough (Phoenix), they all basically act the same way.


I am still looking for how Morey is looking at it from his point of view... he's gone after Harden, Howard, Lebron (I think), Melo, Bosh... all basically big name guys, who command max salaries.

of the 4 you've mentioned, Phoenix fits the mold, perhaps Boston too after the departure of the big 3. But Philly's been tanking, and Morey's been overspending.


Philly is just a case of a GM (he was in Houston for 8 years) given full liberty to go full tank mode, a lot of owners aren't cool with 3 or 4 years of 10-20 win seasons, but not there.

The thing that holds teams back with tanking is bad management and high draft picks often go hand in hand, look at what Cleveland and Orlando surrounded Lebron and Dwight with, getting the #1 pick worked, but the management was still awful.

The offers are just the nature of the salary structure, to give an example, if they were running the Knicks and had that OKC roster in 2011, they would have gone out and spent a bonanza on free agents while Durant/WB/Harden/Ibaka were all on rookie deals (keep this in mind, the 4 of them cost less than $20m combined for 2 seasons), then maxed them and ran a huge payroll, that's what Hinkie will try to do if his picks work out.

It's more about how you break the cap as that method maximizes your talent level as the moment you pay a Durant $17m, you lose $10m from your cap space. So as long as your owner is cool with the tax, you're better off paying a $10m player $12m than not having them at all. Just imagine that OKC team paying $40m for additional talent on top of having those 4, and that's the dream in Philly (in the hands of any team willing to spend huge, that OKC team could have become the greatest team of all time). Will they get picks as good as OKC? highly unlikely, but even if only a couple work out, they could build one hell of a team before those rookies get their money, but that method requires an owner willing to win 50-60 games in 3 years and most aren't (that scenario btw is why team tank is team tank).


Last edited by Telleris on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:16 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Last year was a fun year that ended in disappointment. As a fan of the team, I enjoyed the regular season and was VERY disappointed in the playoffs. I did not expect Houston to contend for a title last season but I expected us to get out of round 1.


We have a horrible coach and Harden did not perform like a franchise player in the postseason, where it mattered most. Howard did IMO.


Do you expect Houston to contend for a title this year? Do you think going forward, that Houston can be a true contender with Harden and Dwight as the cornerstones of the franchise?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:14 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:


To look at all of his options.


And he didn't think that Howard+Harden+Parsons+Beverley+T.Jones+ good role players+genius gm+great owner was better than a lottery team in the East with an owner who insulted him, an horrible management, young "pieces" not ready to contend, an injury prone PG as main player...


Quote:
Melo went where he could make the most money. End of story.


No end . I have proven that you were dead last in Melo's mind ; he discarded you at the first ballot, even if you had Howard+Harden+Parsons+Beveley+T.Jones+role players+ genius gm+ great owner...



Quote:
Dallas gave Nelson a player option for year 2, which our GM does not like to do.



That's the reason why your genius gm is overrated. He has no flexibility,
and it will cost Houston good role players , and years of your best players' prime. By the way, maybe there is a reason why I understand him : he wants a third star because he believes the other two are not good enough to take the team to the promised land. He wants a star which is a real leader ...





Quote:
forgot about Dirk. He has been adamant from jump that he was not leaving Dallas and took a huge discount to help the team get better. How is this a bash on Howard?



I'm not bashing Howard for every single failure of your genius gm, who overreacted at Parsons signing with Dallas, making himself a laughinstock of the league for trying to get a player who had already committed to Dallas, and getting rebuffed.

By the way 8 mln in Dallas>>> than max in Houston .
Did he chose the money, since you are telling us that every player that gave you the middle finger , did it for the money ?



Quote:
I'm not debating our supposed shortcomings as a franchise. I'm refuting your comments about players deciding not to come to Houston because of Howard, as opposed to them just getting the biggest check available.




If Noah ( who is not Lebron) can deliver players who get a paycut to play with him, why Howard can't



Quote:
We didn't offer either the full max that they could make with their old team. The same goes for Bosh. The guaranteed contracts on our books would not allow that.


Please stop, you are making a fool of youself.

Do you really believe that if Lebron had committed to Houston and asked for a max slot ( or very close to the max), your genius gm wouldn't have been able to dump some guaranteed contracts ?
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Telleris
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:14 am    Post subject:

Luke wrote:

I'm not bashing Howard for every single failure of your genius gm, who overreacted at Parsons signing with Dallas, making himself a laughinstock of the league for trying to get a player who had already committed to Dallas, and getting rebuffed.

By the way 8 mln in Dallas>>> than max in Houston .
Did he chose the money, since you are telling us that every player that gave you the middle finger , did it for the money ?


The Lakers offered Dirk a max as well....both offers were sort of tongue in cheek

https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/489131705325072384

I suppose that makes Mitch a laughing stock as well for offering money to a player already committed to Dallas, of course it's not true other than in your head, and both the offers were early in free agency anyhow.

If you're going to throw stones, you might not want to live in a glass house seems very apt here, so does that Mark Twain quote about keeping your mouth shut.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:35 am    Post subject:

AirShooter wrote:
Laker Lover wrote:
How long before Coward starts whining, pouting and blaming Hakeem?

Depends on how the 2014-2015 season goes. It's looking like another first round exit this year for them.

If that's the case, then 2015-2016 could be the final year of this contract in Houston, since 2016-2017 is an option year.

He probably learned his lesson from Orlando when he failed to opt out under pressure from management/media. And even then, he was agitating to get traded prior to having to exercise/decline his option year.

So if the Rockets flop with another first round exit in this coming 2014-2015 season, the next year of 2015-2016 could be Dwightmare with Morey trying to get trade value before Dwight leaves for nothing, or the Rockets brass pleading with him to opt in like Orlando did.

It all hinges on how the Rockets do this season and the off-season after. Is it another first round exit? Can they get a marquee free agent in the off-season after yet another first round exit, in order to convince Howard to give it another try? If not, Dwightmare can come as soon as next season. This will be the last one before the storm, before trade rumors start swirling if Morey thinks he needs to get value for Dwight before he opts out and leaves if he can't convince Dwight to opt in.

But regardless, I don't see him blaming Hakeem, who isn't even in the States much of the time with his overseas projects.


Coward is such an idiot. He could have made his legacy and fortune here in L.A. but fizzled under the bright lights. The dream that so many players have was laid on a silver platter for him.

He's gonna end up like Shaq, bouncing from team to team, bringing lots of hype and big smiles but ultimately leaving a bad taste in people's mouths.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:09 am    Post subject:

Nnamdi21 wrote:
rockets can be contenders soon if they change their philosophy which includes playing some type of Defense. but it needs to happen soon within the next few years. adding another legit player will also help next year.


Well, every player we have added this summer has a reputation for either defending or competing on the glass. Maybe they are making the attempt. Still need someone to coach defense though. Hell, a coach period.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject:

fansincemagic wrote:
I won't laugh at Houston for losing out on Bosh, technically Parsons and others but it isn't surprising. Morey operates his team like he's playing a video game, maybe Bosh didn't want to be shipped to say Boston for Rondo in a year.


I think it's very surprising that we lost out on Bosh because NO ONE thought Riley would give him a full 5 year max deal. No one. The GM still blew it by making trades before he had him locked in though. He also blew it losing Parsons for nothing.

I'm not surprised on the rest of the free agents. They all took more $$ elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
of the 4 you've mentioned, Phoenix fits the mold, perhaps Boston too after the departure of the big 3. But Philly's been tanking, and Morey's been overspending.


Who did Morey overspend on? The only two big contracts on the books belong to Harden and Howard, two clear max players. He let Parson's walk instead of spending. He underspent on Lin and Asik as he only payed them $5M per (LA and NO are picking up 15M of those 25M contracts). Now if you want to argue he overspent to dump Lin the I can see that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:20 am    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
Do you expect Houston to contend for a title this year?


I have to see how we fill out the rest of the roster. With the roster as is, I feel the exact same way I felt last season. The only teams I don't think we can beat to get out of the West are SA and OKC.

LandsbergerRules wrote:
Do you think going forward, that Houston can be a true contender with Harden and Dwight as the cornerstones of the franchise?


Yes. They still need a quality supporting cast though and a coach wouldn't hurt. Just like last year, we are weak at the PG and PF spots and have no bench. So either a young player needs to step up or Morey needs to use his remaining assets (Lin TE, MLE and the smaller exception) to shore up those areas.
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Drifts
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Drifts wrote:
of the 4 you've mentioned, Phoenix fits the mold, perhaps Boston too after the departure of the big 3. But Philly's been tanking, and Morey's been overspending.


Who did Morey overspend on? The only two big contracts on the books belong to Harden and Howard, two clear max players. He let Parson's walk instead of spending. He underspent on Lin and Asik as he only payed them $5M per (LA and NO are picking up 15M of those 25M contracts). Now if you want to argue he overspent to dump Lin the I can see that.


I mean, he went after big name players. the only reason he only has 2 big contracts is the fact that Melo and Bosh chose not to leave for Houston.
and if Houston had cap room, it's reasonable to say they'd have tried signing both Melo and Bosh, or even went after Lebron.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
fansincemagic wrote:
I won't laugh at Houston for losing out on Bosh, technically Parsons and others but it isn't surprising. Morey operates his team like he's playing a video game, maybe Bosh didn't want to be shipped to say Boston for Rondo in a year.


I think it's very surprising that we lost out on Bosh because NO ONE thought Riley would give him a full 5 year max deal. No one. The GM still blew it by making trades before he had him locked in though. He also blew it losing Parsons for nothing.

I'm not surprised on the rest of the free agents. They all took more $$ elsewhere.


I think quite a few people thought that Bosh would be offered a max deal if Lebron left. The real question was would Bosh want to stay without Lebron or go back to his home state.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
fansincemagic wrote:
I won't laugh at Houston for losing out on Bosh, technically Parsons and others but it isn't surprising. Morey operates his team like he's playing a video game, maybe Bosh didn't want to be shipped to say Boston for Rondo in a year.


I think it's very surprising that we lost out on Bosh because NO ONE thought Riley would give him a full 5 year max deal. No one. The GM still blew it by making trades before he had him locked in though. He also blew it losing Parsons for nothing.

I'm not surprised on the rest of the free agents. They all took more $$ elsewhere.


I think quite a few people thought that Bosh would be offered a max deal if Lebron left. The real question was would Bosh want to stay without Lebron or go back to his home state.

True, I'm not surprised about Bosh at all. I think we can all guess who put it out there that Bosh to Houston was locked if Lebron left. In either case, I felt he wanted to stay in Miami because he liked the city and he didn't want to play in TX if all things were equal.

I never thought Lebron would considered Houston. I've said this since Dwight first came to LA, Dwight and Lebron won't happen. Dwight doesn't get along with Wade/Lebron for some reason. Wade openly threw shade at him on two different occasions.

Melo barely considering Houston is another story. Melo had the Lakers, Bulls and Knicks over Houston. Houston has a healthy superstar in Dwight and a star player in Harden. Solid PG, PF, and Parsons coming off the bench. Dwight wined and dined him and he still barely considered them. No state taxes compared to NY or Chicago. He either doesn't care much for Dwight, or it is the city.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Drifts wrote:
of the 4 you've mentioned, Phoenix fits the mold, perhaps Boston too after the departure of the big 3. But Philly's been tanking, and Morey's been overspending.


Who did Morey overspend on? The only two big contracts on the books belong to Harden and Howard, two clear max players. He let Parson's walk instead of spending. He underspent on Lin and Asik as he only payed them $5M per (LA and NO are picking up 15M of those 25M contracts). Now if you want to argue he overspent to dump Lin the I can see that.


I mean, he went after big name players. the only reason he only has 2 big contracts is the fact that Melo and Bosh chose not to leave for Houston.
and if Houston had cap room, it's reasonable to say they'd have tried signing both Melo and Bosh, or even went after Lebron.


So you mean he has been targeting max type guys as opposed to overspending. That I agree with. I'm not so sure if it's the right strategy, as opposed to just getting good players to surround around your two max guys.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject:

Telleris wrote:


The Lakers offered Dirk a max as well....both offers were sort of tongue in cheek

https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/489131705325072384

I suppose that makes Mitch a laughing stock as well for offering money to a player already committed to Dallas, of course it's not true other than in your head, and both the offers were early in free agency anyhow.

If you're going to throw stones, you might not want to live in a glass house seems very apt here, so does that Mark Twain quote about keeping your mouth shut.


Do you think I have problems to admit that our organization right now is in bad shape ? I know we offered the max to Dirk, Bosh and Melo and Lebron, but the only one that considered us was Melo. I wouldn't have begged anyone to come here, because it would have been a waste of money in a rebuilding team ; and Lebron + Melo wasn't going to happen for 1000 reasons.

By the way, are you sure you want to be compared with the way Jim Buss is running things in LA?

You were supposed to be on the verge of greatness and all the narrative about how good was Morey was nauseating.

I heard rumors of Houston trying to get both Lebron and Melo, even dumping Harden ...


You were talking about building a dynasty....




And now..... where you are ?


You suddenly were in the position where Cuban trolled Morey giving an untradeble contract to Parsons ( the fact that Morey said it in an interview is very telling about what he was going to do with Parsons...); and Morey overreacted offering a max deal to Dirk, as if it could have created problems to Dallas

Then, you had no Parsons, no Bosh, no Dirk, no Lowry, no good bench players anymore; and even the Jim Buss' sorry Lakers stole a pick to you in the process


This offseason has been a disaster for the Rockets... but you have still some assets to use and the possibility to recover : let's see what happens ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject:

I don't believe we actually offered Dirk the max.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I don't believe we actually offered Dirk the max.


Nobody does. Bald faced lie by Dirk's agent to make him seem even more magnanimous. The Lakers historically go for home runs but they would never, EVER make that pitch to a 36 year old. As absurd as Kobe's 2 year 48 M was...even THAT isn't the max and that's to a league icon and their own face of the franchise for 18 years. They went on the record as denying it and it doesn't even pass the BS test.


Last edited by jonnybravo on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
It's only July. It appears that the team tried to sign Nelson, and they drafted PGs over the last two seasons. The guy who played backup C for us the majority of last year is the sand dude, since Asik was hurt/pouring for most of the year.


What. You do know how this sounds, right?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Drifts wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Drifts wrote:
of the 4 you've mentioned, Phoenix fits the mold, perhaps Boston too after the departure of the big 3. But Philly's been tanking, and Morey's been overspending.


Who did Morey overspend on? The only two big contracts on the books belong to Harden and Howard, two clear max players. He let Parson's walk instead of spending. He underspent on Lin and Asik as he only payed them $5M per (LA and NO are picking up 15M of those 25M contracts). Now if you want to argue he overspent to dump Lin the I can see that.


I mean, he went after big name players. the only reason he only has 2 big contracts is the fact that Melo and Bosh chose not to leave for Houston.
and if Houston had cap room, it's reasonable to say they'd have tried signing both Melo and Bosh, or even went after Lebron.


So you mean he has been targeting max type guys as opposed to overspending. That I agree with. I'm not so sure if it's the right strategy, as opposed to just getting good players to surround around your two max guys.


which I thought was not how Morey's "moneyball" worked... practically, he's running the team in a more conventional way - go after the max type players.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject:

the rockets won't beat the clippers either.


it comes down to leadership, clutch play and coaching in close playoff series.


i take chris paul and doc rivers over houston with the rosters as they are.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject:

Parsons is going to be a big loss for them.


ariza is a better defender, but i think they will miss parson's shooting (more consistent) and play making abilities more. and he seemed to embrace a leadership type role along with harden and howard.


i think he was a really good fit with that team all around.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject:

SDLakersFan wrote:
Howard wasn't recruiting Jameer. They hate each other.

But damn @ that role players comment by Harden. Him and Dwight sharted on Parsons.


And this is what I loved about their whole season imploding continuing into free agency haha! My friend from Houston is STILL upset about losing to Kobe so many times when they were so so close, he knew to keep his trap shut about getting Coward as well. Last time we spoke he said nada about the Lakeshow's issues lol feels good to see him suffer like this...and they had a winning record! Even when we're down, feels good to be a Laker fan...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Drifts wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Drifts wrote:
of the 4 you've mentioned, Phoenix fits the mold, perhaps Boston too after the departure of the big 3. But Philly's been tanking, and Morey's been overspending.


Who did Morey overspend on? The only two big contracts on the books belong to Harden and Howard, two clear max players. He let Parson's walk instead of spending. He underspent on Lin and Asik as he only payed them $5M per (LA and NO are picking up 15M of those 25M contracts). Now if you want to argue he overspent to dump Lin the I can see that.


I mean, he went after big name players. the only reason he only has 2 big contracts is the fact that Melo and Bosh chose not to leave for Houston.
and if Houston had cap room, it's reasonable to say they'd have tried signing both Melo and Bosh, or even went after Lebron.


So you mean he has been targeting max type guys as opposed to overspending. That I agree with. I'm not so sure if it's the right strategy, as opposed to just getting good players to surround around your two max guys.


which I thought was not how Morey's "moneyball" worked... practically, he's running the team in a more conventional way - go after the max type players.


His system is all about value and how it relates to the cap. The max players are worth the value of max contracts. Certain players are not worth max deals (ie Parsons) but if you are already over the cap and it puts you into contender status then they are.

You also must remember that we have a star struck, big splash owner. He has always been that way (Drexler trade, Barkley trade, Pippen trade, Francis trade, Yao, T-Mac trade).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject:

LAkers 4 Life wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
It's only July. It appears that the team tried to sign Nelson, and they drafted PGs over the last two seasons. The guy who played backup C for us the majority of last year is the sand dude, since Asik was hurt/pouring for most of the year.


What. You do know how this sounds, right?


That has to be a typo right? But I can't think of what word would go there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
LAkers 4 Life wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
It's only July. It appears that the team tried to sign Nelson, and they drafted PGs over the last two seasons. The guy who played backup C for us the majority of last year is the sand dude, since Asik was hurt/pouring for most of the year.


What. You do know how this sounds, right?


That has to be a typo right? But I can't think of what word would go there.


I'm thinking he meant to say "same dude". I was just razzing Dreamshake. I don't think Dreamshake is that type of person.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject:

LAkers 4 Life wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
LAkers 4 Life wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
It's only July. It appears that the team tried to sign Nelson, and they drafted PGs over the last two seasons. The guy who played backup C for us the majority of last year is the sand dude, since Asik was hurt/pouring for most of the year.


What. You do know how this sounds, right?


That has to be a typo right? But I can't think of what word would go there.


I'm thinking he meant to say "same dude". I was just razzing Dreamshake. I don't think Dreamshake is that type of person.

No, he certainly is not. On the ol' qwerty, the 'n' is next to the 'm' and the 'd' is next to the 'e'.
Honest mistake.
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