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DALAKERSRULE
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Joined: 16 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | -Showtime- wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | -Showtime- wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | I wouldn't be so quick to critique Houston's recruitment results so strongly. Ahem, they've added Ariza.
I wish the Lakers had been able to add a free agent of that quality. Apparently, Kobe Bryant, Mitch and Jim couldn't recruit anyone better than Carlos Boozer (from waivers no less), even with juicy room for big salaries.
Los Angeles is far worse off than Houston right now in that regard, and in most other ways too. At least the Rockets have a real chance to reach the playoffs again, and to win a playoff series. |
Ariza, while a good addition won't perform anywhere as well without a point guard like Wall feeding him the ball. Harden plays pseudo point guard but mostly hogs the ball and Isos, while Beverley has very little playmaking talent.
They may have chance to win the playoffs but getting trounced in the first round and eliminated even with both Harden and Howard does not bode well for them. In the grand scheme of things, a first round exit isn't that much different and may hurt a rebuilding process. The Rockets still aren't even close to contenders so it doesn't really matter. |
Wrong.
Rebuilding is a series of steps. The Rockets have added two players (Harden, Howard) in their rebuild that are better than anyone the Lakers have accumulated in four years. They're two steps ahead of the Lakers, if not three steps ahead with Ariza's addition. Who do we have to show for four years of a crap rebuild ? Nash ? Sacre ? Booz ? Perhaps Randle projects to a starter, but wow, I'd prefer Houston's lineup to ours - for today and for rebuilding - by a long way. No, the Lakers are in a stall, not a rebuild. |
...and when does Howard's contract run out?
Will the Rocket have won a championship by then or have to blow up the team and start from scratch again? A similar but more short lived situation happened when we had Kobe, Gasol and Howard a year ago.
4 years ago we had Bynum, Gasol, Kobe, Odom and Metta. That team wasn't exactly blown up at that point. We then got Howard and Nash but Howard left and Nash got hurt.
Rebuilding may be a process but there are major steps backwards teams can take. If the aim is ultimately to gun for a championship, the Rockets having 2 stars and a first round exit then losing 3 contributing players and draft picks for 1 player and a couple of rooks isn't exactly going in the right direction. Howard is getting older and 1 more year of his contract is up without being on a contender. |
I take it you recognize these "steps backwards", such as the Lakers' most recent significant moves, having essentially:
- sent Phil Jackson packing
- employed five - and relieved four - nondescript head coaches in three seasons
- swapped a viable Gasol for Boozer
- overpaid Kobe as the highest valued player in the league for the third straight season now (and for one more following)
- filling out the 2014/15 roster with castoffs, again
- failing to acquire any of the league's top free agents despite having gobs of cap space
As long as we're agreeing about the risks of backsliding while rebuilding, it's fair to shine the light on the home team. Again, I'd prefer Houston's situtation top-to-bottom than our own, but I'm not a Rockets fan unfortunately. Stuck with Jim Buss' version of the Lakers, but not blind about it. |
dude, you are acting as if the Lakers haven't won a Championship in Decades, it was ONLY 4 years a go that we won...... how long a go was it that the Rockets won anything ?? I am sure they are more desperate than the Lakers to win a ship
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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"I am sure they are more desperate than the Lakers to win a ship"
On this, we agree. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | "I am sure they are more desperate than the Lakers to win a ship"
On this, we agree. |
They want a clipper? |
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ILoveLA WeLoveIT
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Joined: 04 Aug 2014
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| DALAKERSRULE wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | -Showtime- wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | -Showtime- wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | I wouldn't be so quick to critique Houston's recruitment results so strongly. Ahem, they've added Ariza.
I wish the Lakers had been able to add a free agent of that quality. Apparently, Kobe Bryant, Mitch and Jim couldn't recruit anyone better than Carlos Boozer (from waivers no less), even with juicy room for big salaries.
Los Angeles is far worse off than Houston right now in that regard, and in most other ways too. At least the Rockets have a real chance to reach the playoffs again, and to win a playoff series. |
Ariza, while a good addition won't perform anywhere as well without a point guard like Wall feeding him the ball. Harden plays pseudo point guard but mostly hogs the ball and Isos, while Beverley has very little playmaking talent.
They may have chance to win the playoffs but getting trounced in the first round and eliminated even with both Harden and Howard does not bode well for them. In the grand scheme of things, a first round exit isn't that much different and may hurt a rebuilding process. The Rockets still aren't even close to contenders so it doesn't really matter. |
Wrong.
Rebuilding is a series of steps. The Rockets have added two players (Harden, Howard) in their rebuild that are better than anyone the Lakers have accumulated in four years. They're two steps ahead of the Lakers, if not three steps ahead with Ariza's addition. Who do we have to show for four years of a crap rebuild ? Nash ? Sacre ? Booz ? Perhaps Randle projects to a starter, but wow, I'd prefer Houston's lineup to ours - for today and for rebuilding - by a long way. No, the Lakers are in a stall, not a rebuild. |
...and when does Howard's contract run out?
Will the Rocket have won a championship by then or have to blow up the team and start from scratch again? A similar but more short lived situation happened when we had Kobe, Gasol and Howard a year ago.
4 years ago we had Bynum, Gasol, Kobe, Odom and Metta. That team wasn't exactly blown up at that point. We then got Howard and Nash but Howard left and Nash got hurt.
Rebuilding may be a process but there are major steps backwards teams can take. If the aim is ultimately to gun for a championship, the Rockets having 2 stars and a first round exit then losing 3 contributing players and draft picks for 1 player and a couple of rooks isn't exactly going in the right direction. Howard is getting older and 1 more year of his contract is up without being on a contender. |
I take it you recognize these "steps backwards", such as the Lakers' most recent significant moves, having essentially:
- sent Phil Jackson packing
- employed five - and relieved four - nondescript head coaches in three seasons
- swapped a viable Gasol for Boozer
- overpaid Kobe as the highest valued player in the league for the third straight season now (and for one more following)
- filling out the 2014/15 roster with castoffs, again
- failing to acquire any of the league's top free agents despite having gobs of cap space
As long as we're agreeing about the risks of backsliding while rebuilding, it's fair to shine the light on the home team. Again, I'd prefer Houston's situtation top-to-bottom than our own, but I'm not a Rockets fan unfortunately. Stuck with Jim Buss' version of the Lakers, but not blind about it. |
dude, you are acting as if the Lakers haven't won a Championship in Decades, it was ONLY 4 years a go that we won...... how long a go was it that the Rockets won anything ?? I am sure they are more desperate than the Lakers to win a ship |
Welcome to the new era of Jim Buss. Yes, i also take solace to the fact that we did win a 'ship 4 years ago.. Just dreading the next few years or so because it looks like we're set up for mediocrity. All we need is that new face of the franchise star to kick things off because right now, there's not a single player on our roster who is worthy of Kobe passing the torch on to. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la.
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70sdude
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la. |
Let's not mince words then. Results matter most, no ?
I sure can't say the Lakers have reduced ticket prices. Can you ?
Four years of gradual product decline is on us.
The Lakers have not obtained anything close to a "first step rebuild" quality free agent this Summer. Boozer ? That's a bench player.
No, the Laker made their choices as you noted and they must suffer legitimate fan disgust. There's been no effective movement made in three Summers now towards accumulation of a talent level that most of us reasonable Laker fans expect of them.
The front office has failed miserably this Summer to take meaningful steps to bridge the credibility gap that they have created: between their giving media lip service to us that a rebuilding effort is afoot and actually delivering something close to a measurably, meaningful change. There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
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The_Dynasty24
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Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 2840
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la. |
Let's not mince words then. Results matter most, no ?
I sure can't say the Lakers have reduced ticket prices. Can you ?
Four years of gradual product decline is on us.
The Lakers have not obtained anything close to a "first step rebuild" quality free agent this Summer. Boozer ? That's a bench player.
No, the Laker made their choices as you noted and they must suffer legitimate fan disgust. There's been no effective movement made in three Summers now towards accumulation of a talent level that most of us reasonable Laker fans expect of them.
The front office has failed miserably this Summer to take meaningful steps to bridge the credibility gap that they have created: between their giving media lip service to us that a rebuilding effort is afoot and actually delivering something close to a measurably, meaningful change. There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
Does it really? |
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Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23912
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la. |
Let's not mince words then. Results matter most, no ?
I sure can't say the Lakers have reduced ticket prices. Can you ?
Four years of gradual product decline is on us.
The Lakers have not obtained anything close to a "first step rebuild" quality free agent this Summer. Boozer ? That's a bench player.
No, the Laker made their choices as you noted and they must suffer legitimate fan disgust. There's been no effective movement made in three Summers now towards accumulation of a talent level that most of us reasonable Laker fans expect of them.
The front office has failed miserably this Summer to take meaningful steps to bridge the credibility gap that they have created: between their giving media lip service to us that a rebuilding effort is afoot and actually delivering something close to a measurably, meaningful change. There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
That's an unfair interpretation. They have not been rebuilding for four years. It's 2014 now and in 2013 they were one of the strong favorites to win it all. Going all in for that season set them back a few years, especially since Dwight chose to go elsewhere. They tried hard to get a big free agent this summer and it looked pretty likely they were going to get one. I don't know what people are expecting. |
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-Showtime-
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Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 324
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
That's hard to believe. 27 wins is not a very high benchmark. So you're predicting less than 27 wins next year then? |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144464
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: |
I take it you recognize these "steps backwards", such as the Lakers' most recent significant moves, having essentially:
- sent Phil Jackson packing
- employed five - and relieved four - nondescript head coaches in three seasons
- swapped a viable Gasol for Boozer
- overpaid Kobe as the highest valued player in the league for the third straight season now (and for one more following)
- filling out the 2014/15 roster with castoffs, again
- failing to acquire any of the league's top free agents despite having gobs of cap space
As long as we're agreeing about the risks of backsliding while rebuilding, it's fair to shine the light on the home team. Again, I'd prefer Houston's situtation top-to-bottom than our own, but I'm not a Rockets fan unfortunately. Stuck with Jim Buss' version of the Lakers, but not blind about it. |
For the record Phil retired when he had medical issues, the Lakers never sent him packing.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144464
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la. |
Let's not mince words then. Results matter most, no ?
I sure can't say the Lakers have reduced ticket prices. Can you ?
Four years of gradual product decline is on us.
The Lakers have not obtained anything close to a "first step rebuild" quality free agent this Summer. Boozer ? That's a bench player.
No, the Laker made their choices as you noted and they must suffer legitimate fan disgust. There's been no effective movement made in three Summers now towards accumulation of a talent level that most of us reasonable Laker fans expect of them.
The front office has failed miserably this Summer to take meaningful steps to bridge the credibility gap that they have created: between their giving media lip service to us that a rebuilding effort is afoot and actually delivering something close to a measurably, meaningful change. There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
So you would prefer that the Lakers overpay for guys who don't deserve it? Imagine where reckless FA signings like that would get them. Maybe make them the West Coast Knicks? You think you would prefer that?
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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jonnybravo
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30698
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la. |
Let's not mince words then. Results matter most, no ?
I sure can't say the Lakers have reduced ticket prices. Can you ?
Four years of gradual product decline is on us.
The Lakers have not obtained anything close to a "first step rebuild" quality free agent this Summer. Boozer ? That's a bench player.
No, the Laker made their choices as you noted and they must suffer legitimate fan disgust. There's been no effective movement made in three Summers now towards accumulation of a talent level that most of us reasonable Laker fans expect of them.
The front office has failed miserably this Summer to take meaningful steps to bridge the credibility gap that they have created: between their giving media lip service to us that a rebuilding effort is afoot and actually delivering something close to a measurably, meaningful change. There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
That's an unfair interpretation. They have not been rebuilding for four years. It's 2014 now and in 2013 they were one of the strong favorites to win it all. Going all in for that season set them back a few years, especially since Dwight chose to go elsewhere. They tried hard to get a big free agent this summer and it looked pretty likely they were going to get one. I don't know what people are expecting. |
People expecting to contend while building for the future as well.
Not utterly irrational at all. Nope. |
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improper
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Joined: 07 Jan 2014
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: |
I take it you recognize these "steps backwards", such as the Lakers' most recent significant moves, having essentially:
- sent Phil Jackson packing
- employed five - and relieved four - nondescript head coaches in three seasons
- swapped a viable Gasol for Boozer
- overpaid Kobe as the highest valued player in the league for the third straight season now (and for one more following)
- filling out the 2014/15 roster with castoffs, again
- failing to acquire any of the league's top free agents despite having gobs of cap space
As long as we're agreeing about the risks of backsliding while rebuilding, it's fair to shine the light on the home team. Again, I'd prefer Houston's situtation top-to-bottom than our own, but I'm not a Rockets fan unfortunately. Stuck with Jim Buss' version of the Lakers, but not blind about it. |
For the record Phil retired when he had medical issues, the Lakers never sent him packing. |
True, but they also actively chose not to bring him back when he probably would have agreed to it. If I recall, Phil was planning to get back to them on Monday and they went ahead and hired D'Antoni before he had a chance to decide, then told Phil they thought D'Antoni was a better fit.  |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Phil's plan was to finish out the season and then move into the FO. Dr. Buss would have none of that, though Jim and Mitch were willing.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Phil's plan was to finish out the season and then move into the FO. Dr. Buss would have none of that, though Jim and Mitch were willing. |
His plans were to coach the team, gain Dwight's trust and try his best to re-sign him. What an awful person to have in the FO. You know a guy that your best asset at the time actually wants around. Factor Kobe has also complained about Phil not being around and Pau as well, for the life of me I don't understand why you would see Phil being a Laker in 2012 as a bad thing.
I'm not sure where you got that Mitch and Jim were willing. There's been no confirmation any of them were pushing for Phil to comeback. They all had jumped on the successful D'Antoni bandwagon which would have made us PHX 2.0 |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Phil indicated jim seemed willing, Kobe indicated jim bringing up phil as an option. The problem for phil is that he didn't want to coach at all, and was apparently only willing to do it for that year. Not sure how people expect he would have gotten Howard's trust either. Howard expected him to make Kobe be his pippen, and to give him primacy over gasol down low. And even if he could smooth that, there's the whole fun and no pressure thing howard wanted. I suspect phil wouldn't have enjoyed Howard at all, and I suspect howard leaves even if he likes phil.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Phil clearly cast doubt on the story that Dr Buss made the call to go with MDA. Don't see where Phil thinks Jim was ever on board with bringing him back.
That said, I'm not saying it would have worked out all peachy and perfect had Phil been brought in. Just saying I disagree that Mitch and Jim were on board with Phil and it was Dr Buss who forced the MDA card. Seemed to me it was clear Mitch and Jim wanted no part of a Jackson reunion. The picture VLF is painting - not what I saw. To me it seemed they flirted with the idea and then quickly realized they wanted no part of it and loved what MDA could potentially do for the team with Nash. |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| And yet we have seen nothing that indicated Phil was actually willing to come back and coach. Willing to think about it? Arguable. Willing to actually do it? Nothing suggests that he was. |
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-Showtime-
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Joined: 12 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:08 am Post subject: |
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"Sessions: Harden's confidence grows"
"
Scoop: Bottom line, you are on this team and a lot of players aren't, but in your mind, who is the best basketball player alive right now?
Harden: Myself.
Scoop: That's what I was about to say, "including you." You made that sound like it was an easy answer.
Harden: It is. Myself
"
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11370572/james-harden-confidence-growing-sessions |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Phil's plan was to finish out the season and then move into the FO. Dr. Buss would have none of that, though Jim and Mitch were willing. |
His plans were to coach the team, gain Dwight's trust and try his best to re-sign him. What an awful person to have in the FO. You know a guy that your best asset at the time actually wants around. Factor Kobe has also complained about Phil not being around and Pau as well, for the life of me I don't understand why you would see Phil being a Laker in 2012 as a bad thing.
I'm not sure where you got that Mitch and Jim were willing. There's been no confirmation any of them were pushing for Phil to comeback. They all had jumped on the successful D'Antoni bandwagon which would have made us PHX 2.0 |
There was talk then that Jim expected Phil to be hired when he left Phil. Dr. Buss didn't trust Phil, he wouldn't hire him to work in the FO. Jim tried bringing in Phil as a consultant but Phil wanted to be able to make decisons.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Phil clearly cast doubt on the story that Dr Buss made the call to go with MDA. Don't see where Phil thinks Jim was ever on board with bringing him back.
That said, I'm not saying it would have worked out all peachy and perfect had Phil been brought in. Just saying I disagree that Mitch and Jim were on board with Phil and it was Dr Buss who forced the MDA card. Seemed to me it was clear Mitch and Jim wanted no part of a Jackson reunion. The picture VLF is painting - not what I saw. To me it seemed they flirted with the idea and then quickly realized they wanted no part of it and loved what MDA could potentially do for the team with Nash. |
Phil said that he was sure it was Dr. Buss who made the decision and then later cast doubt on that. Typical Phil, playing whatever angle he can find.
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rwongega
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70sdude
Star Player
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | I love how it is that the Lakers, who by all accounts could have signed guys like Ariza, Isaiah Thomas, and Stevenson, but chose not to at their asking price, are portrayed as not being able to recruit any of them. Ariza and Thomas in particular wanted to come to la. |
Let's not mince words then. Results matter most, no ?
I sure can't say the Lakers have reduced ticket prices. Can you ?
Four years of gradual product decline is on us.
The Lakers have not obtained anything close to a "first step rebuild" quality free agent this Summer. Boozer ? That's a bench player.
No, the Laker made their choices as you noted and they must suffer legitimate fan disgust. There's been no effective movement made in three Summers now towards accumulation of a talent level that most of us reasonable Laker fans expect of them.
The front office has failed miserably this Summer to take meaningful steps to bridge the credibility gap that they have created: between their giving media lip service to us that a rebuilding effort is afoot and actually delivering something close to a measurably, meaningful change. There's been no accumulation of improved talent over four seasons, and in fact, the roster looks worse than last year. |
That's an unfair interpretation. They have not been rebuilding for four years. It's 2014 now and in 2013 they were one of the strong favorites to win it all. Going all in for that season set them back a few years, especially since Dwight chose to go elsewhere. They tried hard to get a big free agent this summer and it looked pretty likely they were going to get one. I don't know what people are expecting. |
Yes, they were set back by going all-in on an instant retooling but that's the failure of the rebuild, isn't it ? The difference between rebuilding and not rebuilding is visible in the results. The Kobe/Pau/Metta/Fish team failed fairly miserably to the Mavs in the 2011 conference semi's. The signs were up for needed rebuild; the tossing of Lamar and the trade of Fish for a Lamar replacement were the death knell of the club's near term chances. The rebuild move was afoot instantly to re-tool to make more championship runs with Kobe, but three straight years following those first attempts have been baaaaad.. That's a failed rebuilding since their last title. |
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Phillycheese
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: |
As far as Ariza is concerned, this is as false as false can be. The Rockets have a big-man that requires double-teams on most nights, which gets other players open shots. |
But as we saw last year, Dwight never really swung the ball out much. He'd take his time, the the double team comes from the blind side, and turnover. Lin and Pasons gave them 29 pts. Ariza gets them back 10, so who is going to get back the rest? Canaan and a rookie? Houston will not be better unless they turn those draft picks into another all star player. I think they should trade for Josh Smith. |
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Phillycheese
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: |
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i understand the Dwight haterade, but give him props, he showed up for the Rockets in the playoffs. Harden, not at all until the last game. Once the ref stops blowing the whistle, Harden's 17 shots a game suddenly balloons to 22 and he is no longer an efficient player. Plus , he couldn't even bring himself to trying on defense in the playoffs.
Harden should improve this year but not enuff to offset Lin and Asik. Houston needs to add some better players. |
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