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ronnyjeremy
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 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless?
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ronnyjeremy
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
Well I am a guy and many agree with me.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
Well I am a guy and many agree with me. |
A lot don't. Plus a ton of women, who are the target of the comment, do not.
I'm going to side with those who are actually affected by that kind of backwards ass thinking. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
Well I am a guy and many agree with me. |
A lot don't. Plus a ton of women, who are the target of the comment, do not.
I'm going to side with those who are actually affected by that kind of backwards ass thinking. |
Stephen A Smith to Women: ‘Don’t Do Anything to Provoke’ Men Into Beating You
It's a matter of interpretation. He said a woman should not put themselves in a situation that would provoke a man to hit her, she has that onus. He also said a man should not hit a woman even if provoked. Isn't that saying it's a mans responsibility to be a man? He added if a man put his hands on a female member of his family he'd go postal.
I read him saying it's not soley a mans responsibility, women also have a responsibility. That's all he saying.
You left room for a man to hit a woman | Quote: | There's only one thing that justifies responding with physicality - someone physically attacking you.
Anything outside of that doesn't count, no matter how much one feels, "provoked" |
With this I disagree when it comes to striking a woman. I feel if a woman attacks you it's a man's position to hold her until she calms down. As I said I've been in a situation that I had to hold on for dear life.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
Well I am a guy and many agree with me. |
A lot don't. Plus a ton of women, who are the target of the comment, do not.
I'm going to side with those who are actually affected by that kind of backwards ass thinking. |
It's a matter of interpretation. He said a woman should not put themselves in a situation that would provoke a man to hit her, she has that onus. He also said a man should not hit a woman even if provoked. Isn't that saying it's a mans responsibility to be a man? He added if a man put his hands on a female member of his family he'd go postal.
I read him saying it's not soley a mans responsibility, women also have a responsibility. That's all he saying.
You left room for a man to hit a woman | Quote: | There's only one thing that justifies responding with physicality - someone physically attacking you.
Anything outside of that doesn't count, no matter how much one feels, "provoked" |
With this I disagree when it comes to striking a woman. I feel if a woman attacks you it's a man's position to hold her until she calms down. As I said I've been in a situation that I had to hold on for dear life. |
What if Stephen A said, " I've always told my female family members to be classy and to treat others how they want to be treated and to try to avoid situations or individuals that put them in danger. A man that is good for you would never be violent to you regardless of the circumstances so distance yourself from men who even hint at aggression or violence."
Would anyone be offended by that? I don't think so. Unfortunately there are men and women out there who do stay with people who are violent toward them, and in some cases the violence is even mutual.
There is a following that says Stephen A said nothing wrong but I'm noticing a lot of those agreements are from people who think women are crazy and bring this on themselves sometimes. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
Well I am a guy and many agree with me. |
A lot don't. Plus a ton of women, who are the target of the comment, do not.
I'm going to side with those who are actually affected by that kind of backwards ass thinking. |
It's a matter of interpretation. He said a woman should not put themselves in a situation that would provoke a man to hit her, she has that onus. |
It's not a matter of interpretation at all. You yourself, while explaining AS's words say that it can the fault of the woman if she gets beaten for merely provoking a man.
| jodeke wrote: | He also said a man should not hit a woman even if provoked. Isn't that saying it's a mans responsibility to be a man? He added if a man put his hands on a female member of his family he'd go postal.
I read him saying it's not soley a mans responsibility, women also have a responsibility. That's all he saying.
You left room for a man to hit a woman | Quote: | There's only one thing that justifies responding with physicality - someone physically attacking you.
Anything outside of that doesn't count, no matter how much one feels, "provoked" |
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Talk about "interpretation". I was referencing the archaic and screwed up notion that a woman is responsible for her beating if she "provokes" a man expressed in a generic way for emphasis.
Not to mention the fact that you are ignoring that I also stated that I agree with the idea that even if attacked physically by a woman, a man should avoid striking her back - but I can see why you ignored that key piece of information in your reply.
And the key thing to remember here. SAS didn't talk about women HITTING men. He talked about PROVOKING them, which ranges through all kinds of non-violent behavior.
| jodeke wrote: | | With this I disagree when it comes to striking a woman. I feel if a woman attacks you it's a man's position to hold her until she calms down. As I said I've been in a situation that I had to hold on for dear life. |
That's very unfortunate, because that is a horrible attitude. Regardless of gender, the "They hit me first" is a lame excuse for furthering violence. In the case of a man hitting a woman, it's outright cowardly and despicable.
If you're a "tough" enough man to beat a women up, then you are "tough" enough to end the altercation without beating her up. If not, you may be an adult male, but you aren't a Man. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ronnyjeremy wrote: | | He's leaving his radio show based in NY, not first take. |
So he'll still be on First Take with Skip Bayless? |
yes |
LINK
That doesn't make sense, he ranted on FirstTake. To be honest I don't think he said anything out of bounds. |
Easy thing for a guy to say. |
Well I am a guy and many agree with me. |
A lot don't. Plus a ton of women, who are the target of the comment, do not.
I'm going to side with those who are actually affected by that kind of backwards ass thinking. |
It's a matter of interpretation. He said a woman should not put themselves in a situation that would provoke a man to hit her, she has that onus. He also said a man should not hit a woman even if provoked. Isn't that saying it's a mans responsibility to be a man? He added if a man put his hands on a female member of his family he'd go postal.
I read him saying it's not soley a mans responsibility, women also have a responsibility. That's all he saying.
You left room for a man to hit a woman | Quote: | There's only one thing that justifies responding with physicality - someone physically attacking you.
Anything outside of that doesn't count, no matter how much one feels, "provoked" |
With this I disagree when it comes to striking a woman. I feel if a woman attacks you it's a man's position to hold her until she calms down. As I said I've been in a situation that I had to hold on for dear life. |
What if Stephen A said, " I've always told my female family members to be classy and to treat others how they want to be treated and to try to avoid situations or individuals that put them in danger. A man that is good for you would never be violent to you regardless of the circumstances so distance yourself from men who even hint at aggression or violence."
Would anyone be offended by that? I don't think so. Unfortunately there are men and women out there who do stay with people who are violent toward them, and in some cases the violence is even mutual.
There is a following that says Stephen A said nothing wrong but I'm noticing a lot of those agreements are from people who think women are crazy and bring this on themselves sometimes. |
Isn't the bold in essence what he said?
I'm not of the school that says women are crazy but some do provoke dangerous men and put themselves in harms way. Tha's what SAS's rant is saying they shouldn't do and they have a responsibility not to.
Do you think women are blameless?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: |
I'm not of the school that says women are crazy |
Hmmmm:
| jodeke wrote: |
Island women are very feisty. They will attack. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote:
| Quote: |
Talk about "interpretation". I was referencing the archaic and screwed up notion that a woman is responsible for her beating if she "provokes" a man expressed in a generic way for emphasis.
Not to mention the fact that you are ignoring that I also stated that I agree with the idea that even if attacked physically by a woman, a man should avoid striking her back - but I can see why you ignored that key piece of information in your reply.
And the key thing to remember here. SAS didn't talk about women HITTING men. He talked about PROVOKING them, which ranges through all kinds of non-violent behavior. |
I never said a woman was responsible for getting hit if she provokes a man, neither did SAS. His position a woman should not put herself in that position. He said even if provoked a man should not hit a woman.
I didn't see the post that said that will you point me to it please?
Yes the key word was provoke. He said even if provoked a man has no right to hit a woman.
| Quote: | That's very unfortunate, because that is a horrible attitude. Regardless of gender, the "They hit me first" is a lame excuse for furthering violence. In the case of a man hitting a woman, it's outright cowardly and despicable.
If you're a "tough" enough man to beat a women up, then you are "tough" enough to end the altercation without beating her up. If not, you may be an adult male, but you aren't a Man. |
I agree a man should never hit a woman. What did you mean when you said | Quote: | There's only one thing that justifies responding with physicality - someone physically attacking you.
Anything outside of that doesn't count, no matter how much one feels, "provoked" |
Does that give a man the right to hit a woman if she hits him first?
I agree with the latter as I said I've held on for dear life. Why are you ignoring that?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: |
I'm not of the school that says women are crazy |
Hmmmm:
| jodeke wrote: |
Island women are very feisty. They will attack. |
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Why did you ignore my recant to ChefLinda?
| Quote: | I didn't consider my post one that stereotyped. I'll rephrase to, "the island woman I knew."
I understand how you'd take the statement as all encompassing, it wasn't meant to be |
Feisty doesn't mean crazy. Hmmmmmm
I didn't see the post that said that will you point me to it please? I'm still waiting. Not saying you didn't post it, saying I didn't see it. Point it out please.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote:
| Quote: | | It's not a matter of interpretation at all. You yourself, while explaining AS's words say that it can the fault of the woman if she gets beaten for merely provoking a man. |
Something I don't recall saying. When you point to the other will you also point that out please.
This is what I saidl | Quote: |
It's a matter of interpretation. He said a woman should not put themselves in a situation that would provoke a man to hit her, she has that onus. |
Meaning she has the onus not to put herself in harms way,
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: |
What if Stephen A said, " I've always told my female family members to be classy and to treat others how they want to be treated and to try to avoid situations or individuals that put them in danger. A man that is good for you would never be violent to you regardless of the circumstances so distance yourself from men who even hint at aggression or violence."
Would anyone be offended by that? I don't think so. Unfortunately there are men and women out there who do stay with people who are violent toward them, and in some cases the violence is even mutual.
There is a following that says Stephen A said nothing wrong but I'm noticing a lot of those agreements are from people who think women are crazy and bring this on themselves sometimes. |
Isn't the bold in essence what he said?
I'm not of the school that says women are crazy but some do provoke dangerous men and put themselves in harms way. Tha's what SAS's rant is saying they shouldn't do and they have a responsibility not to.
Do you think women are blameless? |
Is it in essence what he said? I don't think that it is. Saying that you provoked something is to say that you caused it. It is blaming the victim. If that wasn't what he meant or what he was trying to do, then he chose his words poorly. Unfortunately, I think he said exactly what he meant.
I have no interest in determining the woman's level of blame for the events that ended in her being knocked out in an elevator. If she has a mouth or she slapped him or whatever, he could have just left. Why is he with this woman? As far as her "responsibility " is concerned, The only thing I wish to criticize is the fact that she is still with him after this happened. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: |
What if Stephen A said, " I've always told my female family members to be classy and to treat others how they want to be treated and to try to avoid situations or individuals that put them in danger. A man that is good for you would never be violent to you regardless of the circumstances so distance yourself from men who even hint at aggression or violence."
Would anyone be offended by that? I don't think so. Unfortunately there are men and women out there who do stay with people who are violent toward them, and in some cases the violence is even mutual.
There is a following that says Stephen A said nothing wrong but I'm noticing a lot of those agreements are from people who think women are crazy and bring this on themselves sometimes. |
Isn't the bold in essence what he said?
I'm not of the school that says women are crazy but some do provoke dangerous men and put themselves in harms way. Tha's what SAS's rant is saying they shouldn't do and they have a responsibility not to.
Do you think women are blameless? |
Is it in essence what he said? I don't think that it is. Saying that you provoked something is to say that you caused it. It is blaming the victim. If that wasn't what he meant or what he was trying to do, then he chose his words poorly. Unfortunately, I think he said exactly what he meant.
I have no interest in determining the woman's level of blame for the events that ended in her being knocked out in an elevator. If she has a mouth or she slapped him or whatever, he could have just left. Why is he with this woman? As far as her "responsibility " is concerned, The only thing I wish to criticize is the fact that she is still with him after this happened. |
He didn't say that. He said ‘Don’t Do Anything to Provoke’ Men Into Beating You
I don't think he chose his word poorly, it's a matter of interpretation. I interpret him saying women shouldn't do things to provoke men to violence, It's loud and clear in the video heading. Stephen A Smith to Women: ‘Don’t Do Anything to Provoke’ Men Into Beating You
I think you're only equating his rant to Rice and not considering he's talking to women in general. He even exampled women in his family.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Jodeke, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. You are obviously from a generation that was taught to think a certain way about this issue and no amount of facts will change your mind. Right now all you are doing is playing a semantic word game.
There is nothing to interpret. When you or Stephen A say "Don't do anything to provoke men into beating you" it implies that if a woman just didn't do anything to provoke a man, he wouldn't beat her. This is placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions rather than on the man who apparently can choose to beat her or not depending on if her behavior "pleases" him or "annoys" him. Ugh.
Therefore this line of reasoning leads to a logical conclusion that Stephen A is "blaming the victim" whether those words were uttered or not, or intended or not.
Any person is capable of provoking another person's anger. But how the other person responds to their own anger is completely up to them.
People with anger issues will often use ANY reason to blow their top and lose it. It is impossible for the the people related to them to "just say the right thing" or "avoid saying the wrong thing" "or just stay out of their way" or "just don't provoke them." People with anger issues are going to blow eventually. It's up to them to get help and figure out another way to deal with their anger rather than resorting to physical violence.
Therefore when a "man" (in this case Stephen A) with no particular expertise in the psychology of violence offers up his just-don't-provoke-your-man advice, it seems uniformed and shallow at best, and offensive and dangerous at worst. |
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Nordvader
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Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 1662
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Deborah Capaldi, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Oregon Social Learning Center
"Prevention and treatment should focus on managing conflict and aggression for both young men AND WOMEN," Capaldi says. Each needs to understand the role both play while still putting a "special responsibility" on the man, who can inflict greater injury.
“Women engage in aggression,” she said, “and we’re not doing them any favors by denying they have any part in it.”
Miriam K. Ehrensaft, PHD
Cognitive Behavioral Therapist
The researchers emphasize they are not blaming women. "We are not saying anybody is at fault," says psychologist Miriam Ehrensaft of Columbia University. "But new data is emerging that says women are also involved in aggression. If we do not tell women that, we put them at risk."
Adults shouldn't be getting into fist fights. Violence is violence and it is unacceptable to attack someone regardless of whether it's men or women.
Hitting anyone is wrong and we should just leave it at that. |
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Don Draper
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Location: LA --> Bay Area
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: |
There is nothing to interpret. When you or Stephen A say "Don't do anything to provoke men into beating you" it implies that if a woman just didn't do anything to provoke a man, he wouldn't beat her. This is placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions rather than on the man who apparently can choose to beat her or not depending on if her behavior "pleases" him or "annoys" him. Ugh.
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The only other time I've heard an opinion similar to SAS is from Bill Burr...and he's a comedian.
SAS paints himself as a regal/authoritative commentator but like Bayless he's a professional troll. Just so happens this time he went a little too overboard and people noticed. But he'll be back again sooner than you know it, blathering on about inane things because people like listening to it. He's a lot like Anne Coulter. |
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ChefLinda
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Nordvader wrote: | Deborah Capaldi, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Oregon Social Learning Center
"Prevention and treatment should focus on managing conflict and aggression for both young men AND WOMEN," Capaldi says. Each needs to understand the role both play while still putting a "special responsibility" on the man, who can inflict greater injury.
“Women engage in aggression,” she said, “and we’re not doing them any favors by denying they have any part in it.”
Miriam K. Ehrensaft, PHD
Cognitive Behavioral Therapist
The researchers emphasize they are not blaming women. "We are not saying anybody is at fault," says psychologist Miriam Ehrensaft of Columbia University. "But new data is emerging that says women are also involved in aggression. If we do not tell women that, we put them at risk."
Adults shouldn't be getting into fist fights. Violence is violence and it is unacceptable to attack someone regardless of whether it's men or women.
Hitting anyone is wrong and we should just leave it at that. |
I agree, anger issues apply to everyone. Everyone should be taught conflict resolution and how to manage their emotions without resorting to physical violence.
However, that's not what Stephen A said. If he had said couples need to get counseling to deal with anger and aggression in a relationship, I doubt anyone would have been offended. |
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ChefLinda
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Don Draper wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: |
There is nothing to interpret. When you or Stephen A say "Don't do anything to provoke men into beating you" it implies that if a woman just didn't do anything to provoke a man, he wouldn't beat her. This is placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions rather than on the man who apparently can choose to beat her or not depending on if her behavior "pleases" him or "annoys" him. Ugh.
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The only other time I've heard an opinion similar to SAS is from Bill Burr...and he's a comedian.
SAS paints himself as a regal/authoritative commentator but like Bayless he's a professional troll. Just so happens this time he went a little too overboard and people noticed. But he'll be back again sooner than you know it, blathering on about inane things because people like listening to it. He's a lot like Anne Coulter. |
Yeah, I don't really give a crap about him. But I do think there are young men (and young women) reading this forum who could benefit from seeing all sides of an issue presented so they can make informed decisions for themselves. In that sense, letting misinformation stand only adds to the problem. I don't really expect SAS will change his schtick. |
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ringfinger
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Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | Jodeke, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. You are obviously from a generation that was taught to think a certain way about this issue and no amount of facts will change your mind. Right now all you are doing is playing a semantic word game.
There is nothing to interpret. When you or Stephen A say "Don't do anything to provoke men into beating you" it implies that if a woman just didn't do anything to provoke a man, he wouldn't beat her. This is placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions rather than on the man who apparently can choose to beat her or not depending on if her behavior "pleases" him or "annoys" him. Ugh.
Therefore this line of reasoning leads to a logical conclusion that Stephen A is "blaming the victim" whether those words were uttered or not, or intended or not.
Any person is capable of provoking another person's anger. But how the other person responds to their own anger is completely up to them.
People with anger issues will often use ANY reason to blow their top and lose it. It is impossible for the the people related to them to "just say the right thing" or "avoid saying the wrong thing" "or just stay out of their way" or "just don't provoke them." People with anger issues are going to blow eventually. It's up to them to get help and figure out another way to deal with their anger rather than resorting to physical violence.
Therefore when a "man" (in this case Stephen A) with no particular expertise in the psychology of violence offers up his just-don't-provoke-your-man advice, it seems uniformed and shallow at best, and offensive and dangerous at worst. |
Frankly, this is not how I interpreted the comments by SAS. And I think there is a lot of misinterpretation going on with respect to these comments.
The point is, you shouldn't provoke someone, anyone. You have the legal right to however, but just because you have the legal right (or even philosophical right) to do something, doesn't mean someone else isn't going to cross the line in retaliation.
If someone cuts me off and I pull up next to them and tell them "Hey! You cut me off back there man, I want an apology, now!" I should be (and am legally) allowed to say that and should be able to without retaliation. But the reality is, when I choose to do that, I run the risk that I'm saying that to some psycho who has a gun. So that's why I don't. If I do say something and the guy shoots me, we'd be having the same discussion about how the onus is on the guy to redirect his anger but that doesn't pull the bullet out of my arm.
People like to pretend that because they are legally or even morally allowed to do things (say mean things, wear something skimpy, go to bars/clubs, whatever) that then, there will be no repercussions to that behavior. And philosophically, there shouldn't be.
But the point isn't to point the finger and place the blame on the victim or the perpetrator. The comments by SAS aren't directly or indirectly placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions. The comments are essentially saying hey, be more aware of your surroundings. Be more aware of what you're saying, what you do, who you're with, where you are and how those things can play a role, however slight, in negative consequences regardless of whatever it is right or wrong. |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote:
| Quote: | | It's not a matter of interpretation at all. You yourself, while explaining AS's words say that it can the fault of the woman if she gets beaten for merely provoking a man. |
Something I don't recall saying. When you point to the other will you also point that out please.
This is what I saidl | Quote: |
It's a matter of interpretation. He said a woman should not put themselves in a situation that would provoke a man to hit her, she has that onus. |
Meaning she has the onus not to put herself in harms way, |
It's plainly evident that you don't understand what the terms "onus" and "provoke" actually mean, particularly in the context of this discussion. You attempt to dance around semantics like Fred Astaire, but in reality you're Michael Scott.
Clearly you are stuck in the antiquated thinking of past generations, so there's little that is productive in engaging you in this fdiscussion. But as ChefLinda stated, while your line of thought can't be altered, perhaps there are some younger members here who could benefit from some more reasonable input on the matter. |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Jodeke, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. You are obviously from a generation that was taught to think a certain way about this issue and no amount of facts will change your mind. Right now all you are doing is playing a semantic word game.
There is nothing to interpret. When you or Stephen A say "Don't do anything to provoke men into beating you" it implies that if a woman just didn't do anything to provoke a man, he wouldn't beat her. This is placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions rather than on the man who apparently can choose to beat her or not depending on if her behavior "pleases" him or "annoys" him. Ugh.
Therefore this line of reasoning leads to a logical conclusion that Stephen A is "blaming the victim" whether those words were uttered or not, or intended or not.
Any person is capable of provoking another person's anger. But how the other person responds to their own anger is completely up to them.
People with anger issues will often use ANY reason to blow their top and lose it. It is impossible for the the people related to them to "just say the right thing" or "avoid saying the wrong thing" "or just stay out of their way" or "just don't provoke them." People with anger issues are going to blow eventually. It's up to them to get help and figure out another way to deal with their anger rather than resorting to physical violence.
Therefore when a "man" (in this case Stephen A) with no particular expertise in the psychology of violence offers up his just-don't-provoke-your-man advice, it seems uniformed and shallow at best, and offensive and dangerous at worst. |
Frankly, this is not how I interpreted the comments by SAS. And I think there is a lot of misinterpretation going on with respect to these comments.
The point is, you shouldn't provoke someone, anyone. You have the legal right to however, but just because you have the legal right (or even philosophical right) to do something, doesn't mean someone else isn't going to cross the line in retaliation.
If someone cuts me off and I pull up next to them and tell them "Hey! You cut me off back there man, I want an apology, now!" I should be (and am legally) allowed to say that and should be able to without retaliation. But the reality is, when I choose to do that, I run the risk that I'm saying that to some psycho who has a gun. So that's why I don't. If I do say something and the guy shoots me, we'd be having the same discussion about how the onus is on the guy to redirect his anger but that doesn't pull the bullet out of my arm.
People like to pretend that because they are legally or even morally allowed to do things (say mean things, wear something skimpy, go to bars/clubs, whatever) that then, there will be no repercussions to that behavior. And philosophically, there shouldn't be.
But the point isn't to point the finger and place the blame on the victim or the perpetrator. The comments by SAS aren't directly or indirectly placing the cause of the beating on the woman's actions. The comments are essentially saying hey, be more aware of your surroundings. Be more aware of what you're saying, what you do, who you're with, where you are and how those things can play a role, however slight, in negative consequences regardless of whatever it is right or wrong. |
Another inane attempt to place the burden on the victim.
Of course people should try to be aware of their surroundings and situations. But this notion that if they don't, the consequences are their own doing is ridiculous. |
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