Mike Brown should have tried to bring in the Princeton Offense slowly.. should just have incorporated a few sets here and there, before unveiling the full repertoire.
what worked for Phil was that he brought in Tex with him in Chicago, then slowly put the triangle in place - Jordan was still pretty much running the offense when the tri didn't work. during his time with the Lakers. he had Tex and his original staff, plus Ron Harper to do it. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:49 am Post subject:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
Running Princeton now is an even worse idea than it was in 2012. The mental picture of guys like Nick Young or Wes Johnson trying to navigate Weave Screens and Dribble-Ats while Ed Davis & Jordan Hill make high post reads is pretty funny.
I'd rather we ran the triangle and dispelled any myths about that.
Then, in time, we should move the low IQ players and bring in higher IQ guys.
If it's a choice between running a team-oriented, passing/reading/motion system or keeping Nick Young or Wes Johnson or Jordan Hill around, I'm going with the system.
If certain players can't hang, move them for players that can.
Having multiple low IQ players playing major roles makes winning/contending extraordinarily more difficult.
I agree with running a system, I just don't think Princeton is it. Steve Nash...arguably one of the Top 2 greatest offensive players of his generation and as high IQ as they come...complained about how intricate and pedantic Princeton was. You have a ton of reads to make, on the ball and off of it, spacing is minimized by positioning players on the wings rather than in the corners, and it's not particularly flexible. If a player misses a read (which will happen quite a bit due to the complexity of those reads), you're likely going to end up in a situation where you haven't created a shot and there's 7 seconds left on the shot clock. This is true of the Triangle as well, which is why it was only successful so long as you had one of the 2 greatest isolation players in NBA history on the team. Other than that, it was disastrous everywhere it was used. On our last title team, over 20% of our shots were generated out of isolation, one of the highest numbers in the league that year.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
I like that you brought up Atlanta, who also lost their best player in Al Horford. Granted they played in the east and still posted a mediocre record. On offense, they passed and moved the ball very well. A little too reliant on 3 point shooting, but they played very unselfish basketball. _________________ There can be only One.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject:
LuciusAllen wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
B_P wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Running Princeton now is an even worse idea than it was in 2012. The mental picture of guys like Nick Young or Wes Johnson trying to navigate Weave Screens and Dribble-Ats while Ed Davis & Jordan Hill make high post reads is pretty funny.
I'd rather we ran the triangle and dispelled any myths about that.
Then, in time, we should move the low IQ players and bring in higher IQ guys.
If it's a choice between running a team-oriented, passing/reading/motion system or keeping Nick Young or Wes Johnson or Jordan Hill around, I'm going with the system.
If certain players can't hang, move them for players that can.
Having multiple low IQ players playing major roles makes winning/contending extraordinarily more difficult.
I agree with running a system, I just don't think Princeton is it. Steve Nash...arguably one of the Top 2 greatest offensive players of his generation and as high IQ as they come...complained about how intricate and pedantic Princeton was. You have a ton of reads to make, on the ball and off of it, spacing is minimized by positioning players on the wings rather than in the corners, and it's not particularly flexible. If a player misses a read (which will happen quite a bit due to the complexity of those reads), you're likely going to end up in a situation where you haven't created a shot and there's 7 seconds left on the shot clock. This is true of the Triangle as well, which is why it was only successful so long as you had one of the 2 greatest isolation players in NBA history on the team. Other than that, it was disastrous everywhere it was used. On our last title team, over 20% of our shots were generated out of isolation, one of the highest numbers in the league that year.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Spoken like a coach
Based on your write-up, I agree that the Princeton seems ill-fitted to this roster.
Complicating matters is that our best post player, by far, is Kobe, but Kelly is our only capable 3-point shooting big.
Hopefully Byron will be flexible in his schemes, given the fact that very few of these players will be on the team in three years.
I have a problem when professional basketball players can't learn simple fundamentals to run an offense. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say...
Jordan probably couldn't have played in Pop's system either.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say.
That's not the point. The two systems aren't 1:1, but they are predicated on ball movement and player movement. The distribution of shots is irrelevant. The point is that Kobe has played and has had enormous success in a ball movement/player movement system. He is also the only superstar that I can think of to adjust his game multiple times to fit in every system he's played in, and to success on top of that. Princeton, Triangle with Pau, MDA-Ball, Olympics, Rudy T, Kobe Johnson, Triangle with Shaq, Mike Brown's "system".
To suggest that one of the highest IQ players to ever play the game, one that has adjusted his game numerous times to success like no one ever has, would suddenly not fit in a system that is similar to the one he's been to 7 finals in, that's just funny to me. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say...
Jordan probably couldn't have played in Pop's system either.
The triangle was just ran that way. That doesn't mean it was run perfectly. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say.
That's not the point. The two systems aren't 1:1, but they are predicated on ball movement and player movement. The distribution of shots is irrelevant. The point is that Kobe has played and has had enormous success in a ball movement/player movement system. He is also the only superstar that I can think of to adjust his game multiple times to fit in every system he's played in, and to success on top of that. Princeton, Triangle with Pau, MDA-Ball, Olympics, Rudy T, Kobe Johnson, Triangle with Shaq, Mike Brown's "system".
To suggest that one of the highest IQ players to ever play the game, one that has adjusted his game numerous times to success like no one ever has, would suddenly not fit in a system that is similar to the one he's been to 7 finals in, that's just funny to me.
Where are the post-ups and iso's in Pop's system? There's virtually nothing in common between the two. Phil liked milking the clock and reversing the ball because it created better angles into the post. It had nothing to do with sharing.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
Team USA play is irrelevant, I suppose. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say...
Jordan probably couldn't have played in Pop's system either.
The triangle was just ran that way. That doesn't mean it was run perfectly.
No it was never the true triangle Tex outlined in his book.
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say.
That's not the point. The two systems aren't 1:1, but they are predicated on ball movement and player movement. The distribution of shots is irrelevant. The point is that Kobe has played and has had enormous success in a ball movement/player movement system. He is also the only superstar that I can think of to adjust his game multiple times to fit in every system he's played in, and to success on top of that. Princeton, Triangle with Pau, MDA-Ball, Olympics, Rudy T, Kobe Johnson, Triangle with Shaq, Mike Brown's "system".
To suggest that one of the highest IQ players to ever play the game, one that has adjusted his game numerous times to success like no one ever has, would suddenly not fit in a system that is similar to the one he's been to 7 finals in, that's just funny to me.
Where are the post-ups and iso's in Pop's system? There's virtually nothing in common between the two. Phil liked milking the clock and reversing the ball because it created better angles into the post. It had nothing to do with sharing.
Duncan got post ups. Parker and Ginobli both got ISOs. There was definitely room in that system for both the iso and post up. They took advantage of matchups and the skills of their star players. It's a mistake to think they didn't. It's also a mistake to think that system wouldn't also adjust to Kobe's strengths, much like it has Duncan, Ginobli and Parker. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Who other than Ryan Kelly on this team do you think could actually fit in to what SA does (ok maybe Lin)? While their system may not be as complicated it's every bit as strict and unforgiving on bad shots and overdribbling. We should just embrace who we are: iso's and post-ups.
Uhh...Kobe Bryant.
OMG...the greatest bad shot taker (and maker) in the history of the league. You're aware they actually demand ball movement in SA, right?
You're saying that like Kobe hasn't played nearly his entire career in the triangle. Kinda amazing that someone who has watched Kobe his entire career would question whether he could play in a ball movement system or not.
Let me guess, Kobe's a cancer that doesn't adjust his game for anybody. He just wants to take all the shots in the world(!) and never pass the ball.
The triangle was anything but an egalitarian system. 2 players hoarded all the shots and everyone else was left with scraps. If you can't see the difference between that and the Spurs extreme offense where everyone is essentially reduced to a role player I don't know what to say.
That's not the point. The two systems aren't 1:1, but they are predicated on ball movement and player movement. The distribution of shots is irrelevant. The point is that Kobe has played and has had enormous success in a ball movement/player movement system. He is also the only superstar that I can think of to adjust his game multiple times to fit in every system he's played in, and to success on top of that. Princeton, Triangle with Pau, MDA-Ball, Olympics, Rudy T, Kobe Johnson, Triangle with Shaq, Mike Brown's "system".
To suggest that one of the highest IQ players to ever play the game, one that has adjusted his game numerous times to success like no one ever has, would suddenly not fit in a system that is similar to the one he's been to 7 finals in, that's just funny to me.
Where are the post-ups and iso's in Pop's system? There's virtually nothing in common between the two. Phil liked milking the clock and reversing the ball because it created better angles into the post. It had nothing to do with sharing.
Duncan got post ups. Parker and Ginobli both got ISOs. There was definitely room in that system for both the iso and post up. They took advantage of matchups and the skills of their star players. It's a mistake to think they didn't. It's also a mistake to think that system wouldn't also adjust to Kobe's strengths, much like it has Duncan, Ginobli and Parker.
There's always going to be an iso or post-up attempt here or there when the shot clock is down or the offense has stalled. They don't run those things as a first or even second option is the point. I know it's heresy but there are more similarities between MDA's offense and Pop's than Pop's and the triangle and Kobe hated that because it took the ball out of his hands.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject:
Funny, I thought they initiated the play with a pass into the post first, then let the motion run.
Or...
A PnR situation with ball movement once the first and second options are negated.
Phil Jackson allowed the triangle offense to be ran through the stars He has said it publicly, repeatedly, that within the triangle offense, if you can't make a decision within 3 seconds, get rid of the ball.
It's not called Pass Screen Cut for just any reason.
The difference is, he allowed the stars to isolate within the offense to feed their egos and keep them happy.
That's the difference. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject:
Quote:
No it was never the true triangle Tex outlined in his book.
Oh yes, it is a true triangle. They ran the sets and the spacing. They just took advantage of the isolation and pick and roll sets within it. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Running Princeton now is an even worse idea than it was in 2012. The mental picture of guys like Nick Young or Wes Johnson trying to navigate Weave Screens and Dribble-Ats while Ed Davis & Jordan Hill make high post reads is pretty funny.
I'd rather we ran the triangle and dispelled any myths about that.
Then, in time, we should move the low IQ players and bring in higher IQ guys.
If it's a choice between running a team-oriented, passing/reading/motion system or keeping Nick Young or Wes Johnson or Jordan Hill around, I'm going with the system.
If certain players can't hang, move them for players that can.
Having multiple low IQ players playing major roles makes winning/contending extraordinarily more difficult.
I agree with running a system, I just don't think Princeton is it. Steve Nash...arguably one of the Top 2 greatest offensive players of his generation and as high IQ as they come...complained about how intricate and pedantic Princeton was. You have a ton of reads to make, on the ball and off of it, spacing is minimized by positioning players on the wings rather than in the corners, and it's not particularly flexible. If a player misses a read (which will happen quite a bit due to the complexity of those reads), you're likely going to end up in a situation where you haven't created a shot and there's 7 seconds left on the shot clock. This is true of the Triangle as well, which is why it was only successful so long as you had one of the 2 greatest isolation players in NBA history on the team. Other than that, it was disastrous everywhere it was used. On our last title team, over 20% of our shots were generated out of isolation, one of the highest numbers in the league that year.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Spoken like a coach
Based on your write-up, I agree that the Princeton seems ill-fitted to this roster.
Complicating matters is that our best post player, by far, is Kobe, but Kelly is our only capable 3-point shooting big.
Hopefully Byron will be flexible in his schemes, given the fact that very few of these players will be on the team in three years.
I have a problem when professional basketball players can't learn simple fundamentals to run an offense.
I agree -- but don't you think that there are quite a few players on this roster who will not adapt quickly to a more complex motion-based offense? That's why we suddenly have a phrase such as "3 and D player". Teams don't trust their personnel to learn all the fundamentals -- they just trust them to master a few of them.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject:
LuciusAllen wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
LuciusAllen wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
B_P wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Running Princeton now is an even worse idea than it was in 2012. The mental picture of guys like Nick Young or Wes Johnson trying to navigate Weave Screens and Dribble-Ats while Ed Davis & Jordan Hill make high post reads is pretty funny.
I'd rather we ran the triangle and dispelled any myths about that.
Then, in time, we should move the low IQ players and bring in higher IQ guys.
If it's a choice between running a team-oriented, passing/reading/motion system or keeping Nick Young or Wes Johnson or Jordan Hill around, I'm going with the system.
If certain players can't hang, move them for players that can.
Having multiple low IQ players playing major roles makes winning/contending extraordinarily more difficult.
I agree with running a system, I just don't think Princeton is it. Steve Nash...arguably one of the Top 2 greatest offensive players of his generation and as high IQ as they come...complained about how intricate and pedantic Princeton was. You have a ton of reads to make, on the ball and off of it, spacing is minimized by positioning players on the wings rather than in the corners, and it's not particularly flexible. If a player misses a read (which will happen quite a bit due to the complexity of those reads), you're likely going to end up in a situation where you haven't created a shot and there's 7 seconds left on the shot clock. This is true of the Triangle as well, which is why it was only successful so long as you had one of the 2 greatest isolation players in NBA history on the team. Other than that, it was disastrous everywhere it was used. On our last title team, over 20% of our shots were generated out of isolation, one of the highest numbers in the league that year.
If we want system, basketball, San Antonio is the team to copy. Popovich has essentially taken D'Antoni's spacing principles, added weak side motion, and emphasized ball movement with his players. Atlanta used these same principles last year and made the playoffs with a woefully undermanned squad. SA's personnel is as high IQ as there is in the league, with guys like Parker, Duncan, Diaw, & Manu, and their system isn't nearly as complicated as the Triangle or Princeton. There's a reason that very few coaches run those offenses at any level anymore.
Spoken like a coach
Based on your write-up, I agree that the Princeton seems ill-fitted to this roster.
Complicating matters is that our best post player, by far, is Kobe, but Kelly is our only capable 3-point shooting big.
Hopefully Byron will be flexible in his schemes, given the fact that very few of these players will be on the team in three years.
I have a problem when professional basketball players can't learn simple fundamentals to run an offense.
I agree -- but don't you think that there are quite a few players on this roster who will not adapt quickly to a more complex motion-based offense? That's why we suddenly have a phrase such as "3 and D player". Teams don't trust their personnel to learn all the fundamentals -- they just trust them to master a few of them.
3 and D players still moved within the triangle offense.
The Princeton is a huge stretch for Nick Young who doesn't work as well off-the-ball, but if he does, the benefits are huge. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 28 May 2003 Posts: 8598 Location: (physically) West Seattle (heart) Venice Beach
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
Spurs Miami highlights.
Things aren't always what they seem. LOTS of drive and pick, post ups, iso.
I'm totally fine with drive-and-kicks, post-ups and isos.
It's impossible to run a motion/pass/cut/read offense 100% of the time.
I just want a balanced offense. Lil of this. Lil of that.
Let's give the D several looks...
- Let's see Kobe iso in the post. That's high %.
- Let's have Lin do some drive-and-kicks.
- Let's iso Randle in the mid-post and let him attack.
- We should run plenty of Kobe/Boozer or Kobe/Randle P/Rs.
- With Kelly, we have good pick-and-pop options as well.
All of that is totally legit NBA stuff that we should run.
But I think, ultimately, down the line, as a basic "operating system," we should be running a motion/cut/read/pass offense that features a lot of weak-side action.
I just don't want a "stand around and watch Kobe pump-fake" offense.
Or some 3-point happy jack-fest.
Gotta create a culture of teamwork - ball-movement and player-movement.
If you can't see/make the correct cuts and reads, then you can't play in our system.
If we're going to re-build this thing, let's do it with high IQ guys. _________________ Everything. Changes.
the triangle's like the old CRT TV... while it can still do its job, it's gone past its time. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
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