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FreakofNature
Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 9187
Location: Maui ...
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 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Kareem
MJ
Kobe(WIP) moving up?
Magic
Wilt
Hakeem
Bird
Shaq
Oscar
Russell
West
Bron (WIP) moving up?
Baylor
Duncan |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | 2nd best SG of all time for sure, but as it stands now and him likely not finishing with a 6th title or another MVP, it will be a tough case to make for Bryant when his career is over that he is even top 5, let alone top 2. He's somewhere in the 6-10 range for me, which is still outstanding.
I do think if you're going to knock Kobe on anything vs the greats, is that he won less MVP's and that he came up short with some great Shaq teams early on in his career. If Shaq/Kobe "got it" a bit sooner, he probably has 6-7 rings right now.
Of course then there's the argument that Kobe played on some crappy teams in 2004-2007, which of course were prime years he maybe could have a title or two on. Tough to say. Still, I'd say unless something insane happens and Kobe wins another title, it'd be tough for me to rank him in the top 5 as of now. |
In a previous thread a while back, I scoured the first 200 pages of search results for greatest of all time lists. On average, he was ranked about 6-7 on non-Laker fan sites around 80% of the time.
So your post lines up quite nicely with those findings. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17105
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| faze wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | xxsicrokerxx wrote: | | sandeezy wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | In order:
KAJ
WILT
LBJ (yeah, blasphemy)
MJ
Kobe (better shooter than MJ, but not as committed on D later in career)
Magic
Russell (hey, he was surrounded by HOF)
Shaq (should be #1, but poor motor/poor work ethic robbed him)
The BIG O (averaged a triple double over a 400+ game stretch)
Mr. Spock, er, Duncan |
One of the worst top 10 lists I've ever seen in my life. |
Clearly he is trolling, no one can be so.... Wait can't insult anyone. Have a happy day. |
Not trolling at all. I am probably the biggest Kobe fan here. In the 5 decades that I've been watching basketball, LeBron, Wilt and Shaq rank highly on my list because they are/were physical outliers - they did things at their sizes that human beings cannot do on a basketball court.
Ceteris paribus, if you put those guys on any team those teams will overperform because LBJ/Wilt/Shaq are unguardable and force all 5 defenders to react to them.
I have Wilt and LBJ as 2 & 3 on the list. The ONLY reason Shaq isn't #1 on the list is his piss-poor work ethic. Magic was a physical outlier, as well, but he wasn't the amazing athlete that the other 3 were/are.
It isn't a bash on Kobe - Kobe is the greatest "normal" player I've ever seen. But LBJ is a 6'9" 275# behemoth who can lock down 6'0" PGs, 7'0" Cs, handle like Frazier, run like Wilkins, rebound like Moses Malone and go to the hole like Zeke. He SHOULDN'T even exist, much less be that good. |
lol, you are going completely overboard. Yes, Lebron is a physical freak but lets not act like he is unguardable. In fact, he is pretty "easy" to guard. Look at the Spurs in the finals last year... they backed off of him about 8 feet and were daring him to shoot wide open 3 pointers all series and the only time he was able to punish them for it was game 7. He doesn't utilize any sort of midrange game so he basically either drives in for a layup or pulls up for a 20 footer. He is still a good scorer because of his natural talent and skillset but not nearly as prolific of a scorer as you probably think he is. His defense is extremely overrated as well from a man-to-man perspective... and "Heat" fans (the few that are left) have been saying this alot recently. He's an elite team defender, but doesn't have the fundamentals to be an elite man defender. Once again, he is still a good defender but you are overrating him.
It all comes down to effectiveness. Yes, Lebron is the most versatile player of all-time to a certain extent but he is not the most effective player ever.
The fact that you have MJ 4th in your all-time list just goes to show that you are trying to be edgy, and pretty much invalidates all of your opinions. How can anyone take you seriously? |
Take off the purple and gold shades. Neither Kobe's nor MJ's greatness is somehow diminished by acknowledging LeBron's superiority.
I didn't *start* watching hoops in 1990 - or 1980 - and the perspective of watching hoops over different eras allows one to examine impact.
MJ was SPECTACULAR! Kobe is SPECTACULAR!
LBJ doesn't have the "killer instinct" that those guys had . . . and so what? He took a team that featured Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow and Larry Hughes to the NBA Finals.
LBJ has a shaky jumper . . . so did Jordan, until he was 30.
LBJ needed a "super team" to win . . . Jordan had Pippen (HOF)/Rodman (HOF)/Kukoc (SMOY)/Grant (All-D) . . . Kobe had Shaq (HOF)/Gasol (likely HOF)/Odom (SMOY) . . . both had Phil.
Kareem is #1 because he dominated over 5 eras and won championships in 3 eras (I count pre-cap Showtime and post-cap Showtime as different eras).
Wilt is #2 because they had to CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME TO STOP HIM. Think about that.
I have LBJ at #3 over MJ and Kobe - you may not agree, but if you think it is indefensible, you're wearing homer glasses.
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KLS
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mettaElbow wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | mettaElbow wrote: | | doesnt mean anything, most wouldnt rate kobe as 2nd of all time or over mj for very valid reasons, 2nd sg i agree |
Yeah it don't matter when your peers and opponents say about you. Their opinions don't matter at all that makes perfect sense.  |
wade is trying to short lbj, thats it, and plus this comment is so random, if ever a player says something abt kobe u post this forum will explode |
Don't know why Wade makes such a comment. He and LBJ should be still friend on the side despite LBJ moving on. Saying anything like this will only give more fire to the King. Why would Wade want to do that? Seriously, I think Kobe is within the top 10. He is just good at scoring, he is also all NBA defensive team. That says a lot about his heart. You look at guys like Melo, Harden etc. They can score. But they don't have the heart to defend to win a championship. The only knock on Kobe is that he is a scorer. He may not play strong team ball and make others better because he is so darn good with scoring himself. |
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Sccit
Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 886
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Truth Teller wrote: | Couple of things I'm noticing. First and foremost is how delusional Kobe fans are. Every single advanced statistic on Earth will tell you that, not only does Kobe not belong in any discussion for GOAT(LMAO), but he doesn't belong in a top 10 discussion. This is not trolling, it's reality - and it is proven by the numbers. Look at his PER, win shares, defensive rating, on/off, what have you... he just doesn't stack up to the true legends of the game. Add onto that, that by all accounts, he is a team cancer. Phil Jackson, his own coach, alluded to it in his books. And before you say "Jordan was, too" well... Jordan is arguably the GOAT, which Kobe definitely is not and definitely has no argument whatsoever for it based in reality. Lakers have one of the most storied franchises in the NBA, yet no free agents wanted to come. Why do you think that is? It's because of Kobe. Both Dwight Howard AND Pau Gasol left for less money to play elsewhere, too. There's just way too many things that tell you Kobe Bryant being a supposed legend is a farce. And as more and more advanced stats come out, his legend will only continue to diminish.
Second, can anyone really take a top 10 or top 5 list with Russell ahead of Wilt Chamberlain seriously? I mean, Wilt Chamberlain ate Bill Russell for dinner on a regular basis. You don't even need to be old as dirt to realize this, just do some research. If you're going to say a player who was a near liability on one end of the court is even comparable to a player who was the most dominant force in the game, on both ends, well... then... I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, he's got 11 rings. He got them coattailing superior teammates. Kind of like Kobe. Neither of them belong in any top 10 all-time great lists.
1) Wilt
2) Jordan
3) Kareem
4) Duncan
5) LeBron
6) Hakeem
7) Bird
8) Magic
9) Shaq
10) David Robinson |
Which pretty much proves that statistics are for nerds and fantasy basketball, not for analyzing a players value .. Fall back, young'n |
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Nightwalker
Star Player
Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 2739
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| FreakofNature wrote: | Kareem
MJ
Kobe(WIP) moving up?
Magic
Wilt
Hakeem
Bird
Shaq
Oscar
Russell
West
Bron (WIP) moving up?
Baylor
Duncan |
Pretty good list I would have Duncan ranked higher though. |
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Nightwalker
Star Player
Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 2739
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Truth Teller wrote: | Couple of things I'm noticing. First and foremost is how delusional Kobe fans are. Every single advanced statistic on Earth will tell you that, not only does Kobe not belong in any discussion for GOAT(LMAO), but he doesn't belong in a top 10 discussion. This is not trolling, it's reality - and it is proven by the numbers. Look at his PER, win shares, defensive rating, on/off, what have you... he just doesn't stack up to the true legends of the game. Add onto that, that by all accounts, he is a team cancer. Phil Jackson, his own coach, alluded to it in his books. And before you say "Jordan was, too" well... Jordan is arguably the GOAT, which Kobe definitely is not and definitely has no argument whatsoever for it based in reality. Lakers have one of the most storied franchises in the NBA, yet no free agents wanted to come. Why do you think that is? It's because of Kobe. Both Dwight Howard AND Pau Gasol left for less money to play elsewhere, too. There's just way too many things that tell you Kobe Bryant being a supposed legend is a farce. And as more and more advanced stats come out, his legend will only continue to diminish.
Second, can anyone really take a top 10 or top 5 list with Russell ahead of Wilt Chamberlain seriously? I mean, Wilt Chamberlain ate Bill Russell for dinner on a regular basis. You don't even need to be old as dirt to realize this, just do some research. If you're going to say a player who was a near liability on one end of the court is even comparable to a player who was the most dominant force in the game, on both ends, well... then... I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, he's got 11 rings. He got them coattailing superior teammates. Kind of like Kobe. Neither of them belong in any top 10 all-time great lists.
1) Wilt
2) Jordan
3) Kareem
4) Duncan
5) LeBron
6) Hakeem
7) Bird
8) Magic
9) Shaq
10) David Robinson |
Looks at post count and join date more than likely you're a troll that has no business talking basketball. Your list is awful btw one of the worst I've ever seen. |
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LakersInFour
Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 6725
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | 2nd best SG of all time for sure, but as it stands now and him likely not finishing with a 6th title or another MVP, it will be a tough case to make for Bryant when his career is over that he is even top 5, let alone top 2. He's somewhere in the 6-10 range for me, which is still outstanding.
I do think if you're going to knock Kobe on anything vs the greats, is that he won less MVP's and that he came up short with some great Shaq teams early on in his career. If Shaq/Kobe "got it" a bit sooner, he probably has 6-7 rings right now.
Of course then there's the argument that Kobe played on some crappy teams in 2004-2007, which of course were prime years he maybe could have a title or two on. Tough to say. Still, I'd say unless something insane happens and Kobe wins another title, it'd be tough for me to rank him in the top 5 as of now. |
Kobe isn't a likeable guy until you get to know something about him. That hurt him for MVP voting as much as anything. Kobe was the best player in the league for a stretch of about 7 years, and it wasn't even close. It was ludicrous that Steve Nash won back-to-back MVPs when Kobe was performing the way he was.
MVP voting is so political it's ridiculous, and it is entirely subjective.
I also think that Jordan wouldn't have been nearly as popular in today's Internet enabled social media spotlight, because everyone would have known what a jerk he is. It's pretty common knowledge among those who follow these things that his name might as well be Richard.
_________________
"It’s like going to the Getty and standing in front of Van Gogh’s Irises while some schmuck next to you critiques individual brush strokes. Just shut up already. The more you talk, the more you embarrass yourself." |
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Rivershow
Star Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2011
Posts: 6731
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Truth Teller wrote: | Couple of things I'm noticing. First and foremost is how delusional Kobe fans are. Every single advanced statistic on Earth will tell you that, not only does Kobe not belong in any discussion for GOAT(LMAO), but he doesn't belong in a top 10 discussion. This is not trolling, it's reality - and it is proven by the numbers. Look at his PER, win shares, defensive rating, on/off, what have you... he just doesn't stack up to the true legends of the game. Add onto that, that by all accounts, he is a team cancer. Phil Jackson, his own coach, alluded to it in his books. And before you say "Jordan was, too" well... Jordan is arguably the GOAT, which Kobe definitely is not and definitely has no argument whatsoever for it based in reality. Lakers have one of the most storied franchises in the NBA, yet no free agents wanted to come. Why do you think that is? It's because of Kobe. Both Dwight Howard AND Pau Gasol left for less money to play elsewhere, too. There's just way too many things that tell you Kobe Bryant being a supposed legend is a farce. And as more and more advanced stats come out, his legend will only continue to diminish.
Second, can anyone really take a top 10 or top 5 list with Russell ahead of Wilt Chamberlain seriously? I mean, Wilt Chamberlain ate Bill Russell for dinner on a regular basis. You don't even need to be old as dirt to realize this, just do some research. If you're going to say a player who was a near liability on one end of the court is even comparable to a player who was the most dominant force in the game, on both ends, well... then... I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, he's got 11 rings. He got them coattailing superior teammates. Kind of like Kobe. Neither of them belong in any top 10 all-time great lists.
1) Wilt
2) Jordan
3) Kareem
4) Duncan
5) LeBron
6) Hakeem
7) Bird
8) Magic
9) Shaq
10) David Robinson |
Damn you joined just to hate on Kobe. Smh lol. And btw that list is really bad. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17105
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersInFour wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | 2nd best SG of all time for sure, but as it stands now and him likely not finishing with a 6th title or another MVP, it will be a tough case to make for Bryant when his career is over that he is even top 5, let alone top 2. He's somewhere in the 6-10 range for me, which is still outstanding.
I do think if you're going to knock Kobe on anything vs the greats, is that he won less MVP's and that he came up short with some great Shaq teams early on in his career. If Shaq/Kobe "got it" a bit sooner, he probably has 6-7 rings right now.
Of course then there's the argument that Kobe played on some crappy teams in 2004-2007, which of course were prime years he maybe could have a title or two on. Tough to say. Still, I'd say unless something insane happens and Kobe wins another title, it'd be tough for me to rank him in the top 5 as of now. |
Kobe isn't a likeable guy until you get to know something about him. That hurt him for MVP voting as much as anything. Kobe was the best player in the league for a stretch of about 7 years, and it wasn't even close. It was ludicrous that Steve Nash won back-to-back MVPs when Kobe was performing the way he was.
MVP voting is so political it's ridiculous, and it is entirely subjective.
I also think that Jordan wouldn't have been nearly as popular in today's Internet enabled social media spotlight, because everyone would have known what a jerk he is. It's pretty common knowledge among those who follow these things that his name might as well be Richard. |
I think what killed Kobe on the MVP run was Eagle, Colorado.
There were plenty in the media who convicted Kobe before he was even arraigned - particularly at ESPN - and from 2004 until the 2008 Finals, there was open contempt towards Kobe from the national media.
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2WayBaller
Rookie
Joined: 22 Jul 2014
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | I love Kobe but he isn't 2nd greatest player of all time. Top 5 though for sure. |
Are we sure about that? Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq and Duncan all have very good resumes (along with a few others). |
Mr. Triple Double, Big O, Oscar Robertson should be on that list too |
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Jeggs
Star Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | In order:
KAJ
WILT
LBJ (yeah, blasphemy)
MJ
Kobe (better shooter than MJ, but not as committed on D later in career)
Magic
Russell (hey, he was surrounded by HOF)
Shaq (should be #1, but poor motor/poor work ethic robbed him)
The BIG O (averaged a triple double over a 400+ game stretch)
Mr. Spock, er, Duncan |
That is absolutely absurd. If you like physical freaks then how come Dr. J isn't on your list? He was as freaky as they get, or did you forget?
Not only that, but Kobe's instincts is 2nd to none. Magic was a freak...6'9 PG eyes behind head? Hello...I've seen tons of people do what Lebron and MJ do on a physical level...but I have never seen anyone pass like Magic does, and never seen anyone as skilled as Kobe. No way LBJ deserves to be that high on your list.
Any way, I would go with:
1. Kobe
2. Magic
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Big O |
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gumblin
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: |
I'm not impressed by GOAT analyses produced using the standard of "who'd dominate today ?." It doesn't measure all-time greatness well enough for me. Player greatness is very era-specific and as a result, all-time greatness relates to the level of era domination. Havlicek's work is very able to be judged as equal to - or greater than - that of Kobe Bryant. |
This.
When comparing different eras, things should be relative. Chances are athletes of previous eras won't be able to compete physically against today. But, it doesn't mean they aren't as good. All this talk about, "If Oscar played today", or "If Wilt played today", is nonsense.
The reason why Jordan was the greatest in the modern era (ever since I was born), was because he had no equal and it was clear as night and day. He was head and shoulders above everyone else and it wasn't even close. On top of that, his impact on basketball was immense. There's a reason why his shoes today are still best sellers. |
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PrairieAve
Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 4209
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Anti-Kobe agendas aren't new, but Magic at #8-- beneath Bird-- is not a list extrapolated from reality.
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I hate these top 10 lists. If we're honest, unless you've seen Wilt/Russell/Oscar etc. play, how can we really cast an objective view on them? My views on those guys are honestly shaped by what someone who saw them actually play views them.
It's a very flawed system to rank top 10 players, some of which include/exclude players we've never seen play besides a few career highlight clips.
That being said, in my loose top 10, I have Kobe, Magic, and KAJ as top 10 players who are Lakers. For current players, I have LBJ in the top 10, and Duncan hovering in the top 10 area. I don't see any current stars (KD, Anthony Davis, etc.) bumping into the top 10 absent unforseen developments. The top 12-15 players may be set for quite a while until the next great comes around.l
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17105
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jeggs wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | In order:
KAJ
WILT
LBJ (yeah, blasphemy)
MJ
Kobe (better shooter than MJ, but not as committed on D later in career)
Magic
Russell (hey, he was surrounded by HOF)
Shaq (should be #1, but poor motor/poor work ethic robbed him)
The BIG O (averaged a triple double over a 400+ game stretch)
Mr. Spock, er, Duncan |
That is absolutely absurd. If you like physical freaks then how come Dr. J isn't on your list? He was as freaky as they get, or did you forget? |
Dr. J was freakishly athletic - as was 'Nique, Hawk and other guys - but his body type was in a normal range for the league - 6'6" 210# was ordinary for a guy who was a SF in the 70s and early 80s.
Wilt was 7'1" 325# (he admitted to lying about playing at 275#) in an era of 6'8" 220# centers, was a national level track athlete and had Ruthian, never-to-be-approached-much-less-surpassed numbers.
LeBron is a 6'9" 275# SF who runs the point on offense and plays lockdown D. Yes, Pippen did that, too, but LeBron also scores 30 at will, while shooting 56% from the field and 41% from 3 and guarding the opposing team's toughest cover in the clutch, regardless of position.
Shaq . . . Shaq . . . Shaq . . . 7'1" 3??# . . . shoulda won 10 rings . . . I cannot say the guy was uncommitted. With his physical gifts, the guy was BORN in the top-10. He worked enough to climb to #8, but he should be #1 with a wide chasm between himself and #2. Handle, court vision, great footwork and touch in the post and physically unstoppable. If he got the same whistle that guys like Moses Malone or David Robinson got (not to mention wing guys like Jordan), he'd have crushed Wilt's numbers.
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17105
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: |
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One thing about these GOAT lists is that they always bring back a fresh appreciation for KAJ.
Kareem played against:
Wilt Chamberlain
Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed
Bob Lanier
Walt Bellamy
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Pat Ewing
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
He dominated everyone - even as an old man, he held his own more often than not and was NBA Finals MVP at 38 years old!
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On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | One thing about these GOAT lists is that they always bring back a fresh appreciation for KAJ.
Kareem played against:
Wilt Chamberlain
Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed
Bob Lanier
Walt Bellamy
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Pat Ewing
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
He dominated everyone - even as an old man, he held his own more often than not and was NBA Finals MVP at 38 years old! |
Yup. KAJ is highly underrated in top 10 lists. Def one of the GOAT if not the GOAT.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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moonriver24
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Have any of you seen a player getting double- or sometimes triple-teamed BEYOND the three point line time and time again in the crucial times? That's ladies n gentlemen the fear imposed by a player named kobe. There has not been a player, not even MJ, that was feared by a whole team when it mattered most. The famed unbelievable .4 shot by Fisher for example, is one of the many great examples of the fear kobe has created beyond the line. Fisher was free to roam free enough because of the attention on Kobe. .
At this stage of his career, "small" thing like this separates Kobe from his GOATers. Statistics? Lmao.
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Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples |
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70sdude
Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 4567
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | Have any of you seen a player getting double- or sometimes triple-teamed BEYOND the three point line time and time again in the crucial times? That's ladies n gentlemen the fear imposed by a player named kobe. There has not been a player, not even MJ, that was feared by a whole team when it mattered most. The famed unbelievable .4 shot by Fisher for example, is one of the many great examples of the fear kobe has created beyond the line. Fisher was free to roam free enough because of the attention on Kobe. .
At this stage of his career, "small" thing like this separates Kobe from his GOATers. Statistics? Lmao. |
Way off. It wasn't a matter of fear; it was a matter of respect for intelligence and ability
MJ wasn't triple-teamed effectively after the 1990 season, nor as often as Kobe was handled that way, and it was for two reasons:
- MJ remained too good at driving the ball for anyone to open up the court with a triple-team tactic;
- Phil Jackson eventually taught him to defeat it by passing right over the top to Pippen, Harper, or Kukoc.
Kobe however was not respected to the same extent as Jordan. When Kobe was famously triple-teamed - often and effectively - in both the 2008 Finals by Boston and by Detroit in 2004 - the tactic worked. There are reasons. |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Kobe is definitely the second greatest SG of all time without a doubt, but he's not the second greatest player ever, not even close. He's definitely on the top 10 list and right now he's probably ranked higher than LeBron due to all of his accolades, etc, but eventually, LeBron will surpass him. It's not a matter of if anymore, it's a matter of when and it's closer than Lakers fans like to believe. Some can argue that LeBron already has, but to me, he still needs to win at least one more title to get the edge over Kobe in FMVP.
Kobe is the most skilled perimeter scorer that I've ever seen, but to me, LeBron is a more of a total package than him and is almost close to perfect as it can get when it comes to being able to do a lot of things at a high efficient level. You can put LeBron and Kobe on two mediocre teams, and LeBron's team will win more games, it's that simple. Magic is the only guy that i can say was a better teammate to play with than LeBron. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | Have any of you seen a player getting double- or sometimes triple-teamed BEYOND the three point line time and time again in the crucial times? That's ladies n gentlemen the fear imposed by a player named kobe. There has not been a player, not even MJ, that was feared by a whole team when it mattered most. The famed unbelievable .4 shot by Fisher for example, is one of the many great examples of the fear kobe has created beyond the line. Fisher was free to roam free enough because of the attention on Kobe. .
At this stage of his career, "small" thing like this separates Kobe from his GOATers. Statistics? Lmao. |
And that would happen time and again even if he was off ball. THAT is crazy! And when you think of the players he has had, how many of them were never NBA material like Smush, how many of them were borderline material who were forced to be starters like Walton and Kwame, how many were major contributors to rings playing alongside Kobe but who washed up once they didn't have him to draw the attention and to lead them, Sasha, Farmar, Ariza, it just boggles the mind that people ignore stuff like this.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | Have any of you seen a player getting double- or sometimes triple-teamed BEYOND the three point line time and time again in the crucial times? That's ladies n gentlemen the fear imposed by a player named kobe. There has not been a player, not even MJ, that was feared by a whole team when it mattered most. The famed unbelievable .4 shot by Fisher for example, is one of the many great examples of the fear kobe has created beyond the line. Fisher was free to roam free enough because of the attention on Kobe. .
At this stage of his career, "small" thing like this separates Kobe from his GOATers. Statistics? Lmao. |
Way off. It wasn't a matter of fear; it was a matter of respect for intelligence and ability
MJ wasn't triple-teamed effectively after the 1990 season, nor as often as Kobe was handled that way, and it was for two reasons:
- MJ remained too good at driving the ball for anyone to open up the court with a triple-team tactic;
- Phil Jackson eventually taught him to defeat it by passing right over the top to Pippen, Harper, or Kukoc.
Kobe however was not respected to the same extent as Jordan. When Kobe was famously triple-teamed - often and effectively - in both the 2008 Finals by Boston and by Detroit in 2004 - the tactic worked. There are reasons. |
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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NomisR
Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: |
Take off the purple and gold shades. Neither Kobe's nor MJ's greatness is somehow diminished by acknowledging LeBron's superiority.
I didn't *start* watching hoops in 1990 - or 1980 - and the perspective of watching hoops over different eras allows one to examine impact.
MJ was SPECTACULAR! Kobe is SPECTACULAR!
LBJ doesn't have the "killer instinct" that those guys had . . . and so what? He took a team that featured Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow and Larry Hughes to the NBA Finals.
LBJ has a shaky jumper . . . so did Jordan, until he was 30.
LBJ needed a "super team" to win . . . Jordan had Pippen (HOF)/Rodman (HOF)/Kukoc (SMOY)/Grant (All-D) . . . Kobe had Shaq (HOF)/Gasol (likely HOF)/Odom (SMOY) . . . both had Phil.
Kareem is #1 because he dominated over 5 eras and won championships in 3 eras (I count pre-cap Showtime and post-cap Showtime as different eras).
Wilt is #2 because they had to CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME TO STOP HIM. Think about that.
I have LBJ at #3 over MJ and Kobe - you may not agree, but if you think it is indefensible, you're wearing homer glasses. |
Wouldn't Shaq be ranked just as high though since he also brought in a rule change allowing Zone defense? Also stronger baskets.. |
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jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30680
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | Have any of you seen a player getting double- or sometimes triple-teamed BEYOND the three point line time and time again in the crucial times? That's ladies n gentlemen the fear imposed by a player named kobe. There has not been a player, not even MJ, that was feared by a whole team when it mattered most. The famed unbelievable .4 shot by Fisher for example, is one of the many great examples of the fear kobe has created beyond the line. Fisher was free to roam free enough because of the attention on Kobe. .
At this stage of his career, "small" thing like this separates Kobe from his GOATers. Statistics? Lmao. |
Way off. It wasn't a matter of fear; it was a matter of respect for intelligence and ability
MJ wasn't triple-teamed effectively after the 1990 season, nor as often as Kobe was handled that way, and it was for two reasons:
- MJ remained too good at driving the ball for anyone to open up the court with a triple-team tactic;
- Phil Jackson eventually taught him to defeat it by passing right over the top to Pippen, Harper, or Kukoc.
Kobe however was not respected to the same extent as Jordan. When Kobe was famously triple-teamed - often and effectively - in both the 2008 Finals by Boston and by Detroit in 2004 - the tactic worked. There are reasons. |
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Lot easier to pass over the litany midgets at the 2 that was the standard in 1993. Real nice to play at a time when the second best wing player in the NBA was your teammate. 2/3 cross-match on defense during the 80's and 90's? What's DAT!? |
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