Wade called Kobe : " The second best player of all time"
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:06 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.


Top 5 like players
Kobe
MJ
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
KG

Top 10 like players
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar
Shaq
Malone K.
LBJ
Elgin

Top 15 like players
Elgin
Malone M.
'Nique
Isiah
J. Kidd


Just off the top of my head.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.


Top 5 like players
Kobe
MJ
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
KG

Top 10 like players
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar
Shaq
Malone K.
LBJ
Elgin

Top 15 like players
Elgin
Malone M.
'Nique
Isiah
J. Kidd


Just off the top of my head.


I have Russell, Oscar, LBJ in the top-5 like players, and def not KG. KG is probably an all-time top 50 player, but certainly not top 5.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:13 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Have any of you seen a player getting double- or sometimes triple-teamed BEYOND the three point line time and time again in the crucial times? That's ladies n gentlemen the fear imposed by a player named kobe. There has not been a player, not even MJ, that was feared by a whole team when it mattered most. The famed unbelievable .4 shot by Fisher for example, is one of the many great examples of the fear kobe has created beyond the line. Fisher was free to roam free enough because of the attention on Kobe. .

At this stage of his career, "small" thing like this separates Kobe from his GOATers. Statistics? Lmao.


Fisher wasn't even wide open on the .4 shot though. He was tightly guarded by Manu Ginobili.

I get the point you're making, let's just not overstate it.

Kobe wasn't always double or triple teamed in crucial times. In fact, for most of his game-winners, he was in single coverage.

Doesn't make him any less clutch though.
Fisher was tightly guarded by manu. Yes sir. But what made the pass to him possible? No one was guarding the inbounder because the supposedly defender was busy helping his teammate guarding and trying to deny kobe the ball. As for kobe not only double or triple teamed beyond the arch, you are right. But no one player in the nba until now has the attention kobe has got so far. Respect and fear at the same time.


Yeah, I agree. Kobe was double teamed on that particular play off the ball, but what I don't agree with is the notion that Derek was allowed to roam free. He still had to GET free from his defender.

I just thought it was overstating it when you say Derek was roaming free as if no one was around him. They had at least single coverage on every inbound player and double coverage on Kobe. This is a pretty standard tactic for any team with a go to clutch perimeter player on their squad on an inbounds play. When it wasn't an inbounds play, Kobe got to go 1 on 1 for pretty much all of his game winners. (Pistons, Suns, Portland, etc).
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som3on3_10
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

And people forget that in the 2013 All Star game, Kobe just dominated LBJ on both ends of the court.


Buddy, it was an all-star game. Stop it.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:25 am    Post subject:

som3on3_10 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

And people forget that in the 2013 All Star game, Kobe just dominated LBJ on both ends of the court.


Buddy, it was an all-star game. Stop it.



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theunknownknight
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject:

My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:35 am    Post subject:

theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:49 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:58 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.


If you take Pippen off then that list is no longer that list.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:01 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.


If you take Pippen off then that list is no longer that list.


Ha!
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:04 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.


Not sure if I ever said that... As you know I'm a huge fan of Clifford Brown, and it depends on what phase of Miles' career you are talking about.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:08 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.


Sports are simply not as subjective as art to justify a list that off the wall. We do have stats.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:
I see what your saying, but Dr. J had the Mitts.


Now this is true. I had forgotten, but in the late 70s or early 80s, GQ put a life sized photo of Dr. J.'s hand in the centerfold. It was like 13 inches from wrist to fingertip.


LakerLand247 wrote:
"shoulda won 10 rings"???. In this modern era of basketball? You seriously think Shaq should have finished his career with 10 rings? Dr. Cavs, this isn't NBA 2k.


Shaq played in 6 Finals, winning 4. He wasn't ready to win vs. Olajuwon, but:

His 1st three years with the Lakers he was never in shape - that 97-98 team won 61 games with Shaq missing 25 starts. If he's in shape, that team wins 70 games and gets HCA throughout. Do they beat the Jazz and/or Bulls with HCA and Shaq in shape? I certainly give them a puncher's chance.

In 02-03, he came to camp at 370# and NEVER got into shape, robbing us of a 4-peat.

He should've won in 03-04 but played his worst Finals ever (some claim he threw the series to get back at Buss for not extending him).

That Heat team with he and Wade should've won at least one more, but he went totally to seed after 05-06.

After that, he's in his mid-to-late 30s . . . Kareem and Parish won at those ages, but it is a stretch.

OK - he should've won 8.

And FWIW, son - I've never played NBA2K, but I have bought it for my son . . . and my grandson.
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Wilkes52
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject:

I don't think Kobe's top five, maybe not even top ten all-time.

NBA players with only one league MVP award - or fewer - don't have the resume to contend seriously for all-time GOAT status, and perhaps not for top ten status all-time as well.

Without multiple MVP status, a player had competition in their own era of equivalent - or greater - power. Only players who have more than one league MVP contend for all-time GOAT status, and that's who's in the top five.

So it's an elimination status for many greats, including:

Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson

These are all excellent, remarkable, HOF-worthy, NBA top 50, championship winners of the highest honors in the game. They might even represent personal faves, or players you personally would choose over any other for an ultimate "what-if" dream team face-off.

But a top five all-time guy earned his second league MVP; if he didn't, his game was lacking something.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject:

Wilkes52 wrote:
I don't think Kobe's top five, maybe not even top ten all-time.

NBA players with only one league MVP award - or fewer - don't have the resume to contend seriously for all-time GOAT status, and perhaps not for top ten status all-time as well.

Without multiple MVP status, a player had competition in their own era of equivalent - or greater - power. Only players who have more than one league MVP contend for all-time GOAT status, and that's who's in the top five.

So it's an elimination status for many greats, including:

Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson

These are all excellent, remarkable, HOF-worthy, NBA top 50, championship winners of the highest honors in the game. They might even represent personal faves, or players you personally would choose over any other for an ultimate "what-if" dream team face-off.

But a top five all-time guy earned his second league MVP; if he didn't, his game was lacking something.


I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Kobe's games lacked nothing. Certainly nothing that 2X MVP Nash lacked. If he had taken that bum of a team to 50 wins in 2005-2006, he would have been MVP.

So, you go ahead and look at the stat books and I'll look at the plays and you take your top 10 guy against Kobe and you'll lose everytime.
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LakersInFour
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


This might be the best list I've ever seen.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:25 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.


Not sure if I ever said that... As you know I'm a huge fan of Clifford Brown, and it depends on what phase of Miles' career you are talking about.



See that's just it. Miles wasn't a virtuoso and Clifford was technically the greatest of all time and the most coherent and had a seemingly limitless fount of musical ideas. And his sound was the biggest, fattest sounds around. Clifford and Miles play in a cutting contest and Clifford wins 10/10 times.
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LakersInFour
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject:

theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


Pippen is so underrated, but IMO, he was the MVP of those Bulls teams. You could swap out Jordan for another good but not necessarily HOF worthy player of that era (Drexler, Richmond, etc) and they would have been just as dominant, but you take Pippen away and they win nothing.
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Wilkes52
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject:

LakersInFour wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


This might be the best list I've ever seen.


It's close to being both the most Jordan-hating and Laker-centric I've read.
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greenfrog
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject:

Wilkes52 wrote:
LakersInFour wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


This might be the best list I've ever seen.


It's close to being both the most Jordan-hating and Laker-centric I've read.


Shaq a coattail rider is Laker-centric?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


This might be the worst list I've ever seen.


Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.


Not sure if I ever said that... As you know I'm a huge fan of Clifford Brown, and it depends on what phase of Miles' career you are talking about.


You guys are on drugs.

1 - Louis Armstrong
2 - Dizzy Gillespie
3 - Miles Davis
4 - Clifford Brown
5 - Freddie Hubbard

And if you're talking IMPACT - Wynton Marsalis moves all the way up to #3.
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epak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject:

Top 5:

Tupac
Biggie
JayZ
Eminem
NWA
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Wilkes52
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Wilkes52 wrote:
I don't think Kobe's top five, maybe not even top ten all-time.

NBA players with only one league MVP award - or fewer - don't have the resume to contend seriously for all-time GOAT status, and perhaps not for top ten status all-time as well.

Without multiple MVP status, a player had competition in their own era of equivalent - or greater - power. Only players who have more than one league MVP contend for all-time GOAT status, and that's who's in the top five.

So it's an elimination status for many greats, including:

Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson

These are all excellent, remarkable, HOF-worthy, NBA top 50, championship winners of the highest honors in the game. They might even represent personal faves, or players you personally would choose over any other for an ultimate "what-if" dream team face-off.

But a top five all-time guy earned his second league MVP; if he didn't, his game was lacking something.


I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Kobe's games lacked nothing. Certainly nothing that 2X MVP Nash lacked. If he had taken that bum of a team to 50 wins in 2005-2006, he would have been MVP.

So, you go ahead and look at the stat books and I'll look at the plays and you take your top 10 guy against Kobe and you'll lose everytime.


I didn't say Nash contends to be recognized as GOAT, so get smart about it. I know Nash won one more MVP than Kobe and they both played at the same time. That's the point. The GOAT wins more than one MVP. Bzzzzt - sorry.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject:

LakersInFour wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


Pippen is so underrated, but IMO, he was the MVP of those Bulls teams. You could swap out Jordan for another good but not necessarily HOF worthy player of that era (Drexler, Richmond, etc) and they would have been just as dominant, but you take Pippen away and they win nothing.


Worst. Logic. Ever. It doesn't even say anything meaningful.

What is the point in saying hey, if you swap out Jordan for Drexler that team would be better than Jordan's team if you swap Pippen for a bag of potato chips. Umm. Duh?

These discussions are so pointless.

"Hey guys, if this happened, this would have happened"
"No it wouldn't"
"Yes it would"
"No"
"Yes"
"No because if this happened then that then this then that then this then that. Bro"
"Do I know you?"
"No"
"Yes you do"
"Oh"
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theunknownknight
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Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
LakersInFour wrote:
theunknownknight wrote:
My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.


Pippen is so underrated, but IMO, he was the MVP of those Bulls teams. You could swap out Jordan for another good but not necessarily HOF worthy player of that era (Drexler, Richmond, etc) and they would have been just as dominant, but you take Pippen away and they win nothing.


Worst. Logic. Ever. It doesn't even say anything meaningful.

What is the point in saying hey, if you swap out Jordan for Drexler that team would be better than Jordan's team if you swap Pippen for a bag of potato chips. Umm. Duh?

These discussions are so pointless.

"Hey guys, if this happened, this would have happened"
"No it wouldn't"
"Yes it would"
"No"
"Yes"
"No because if this happened then that then this then that then this then that. Bro"
"Do I know you?"
"No"
"Yes you do"
"Oh"


Well, we have evidence.

Jordan played without Pippen and was a loser everytime. Not sometimes. Everytime. Losing seasons.

Pippen played without Jordan and made multiple conference finals. He was the cog in the machine.
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