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Wade called Kobe : " The second best player of all time"
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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:52 am Post subject:

theunknownknight wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

My list:

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Pippen (driver of the Bulls - almost carried Bulls to title with a d-leaguer in Jordan's place - Pete Myers)
6. Bird (always beat Jordan)
7. Jordan (5 seasons without Pippen= losing season everytime)
8. Shaq - coattail rider - 6 different teams
9. Duncan - Carried by Poppovich
10. Malone

This is reality. Learn to deal with it.

Pippen is so underrated, but IMO, he was the MVP of those Bulls teams. You could swap out Jordan for another good but not necessarily HOF worthy player of that era (Drexler, Richmond, etc) and they would have been just as dominant, but you take Pippen away and they win nothing.

Worst. Logic. Ever. It doesn't even say anything meaningful.

What is the point in saying hey, if you swap out Jordan for Drexler that team would be better than Jordan's team if you swap Pippen for a bag of potato chips. Umm. Duh?

These discussions are so pointless.

"Hey guys, if this happened, this would have happened"
"No it wouldn't"
"Yes it would"
"No"
"Yes"
"No because if this happened then that then this then that then this then that. Bro"
"Do I know you?"
"No"
"Yes you do"
"Oh"

Well, we have evidence.

Jordan played without Pippen and was a loser everytime. Not sometimes. Everytime. Losing seasons.

Pippen played without Jordan and made multiple conference finals. He was the cog in the machine.

That isn't evidence of anything any more than the fact that Kobe has never made it past the second round without Derek Fisher.

webattorney
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:16 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.

Top 5 like players
Kobe
MJ
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
KG

Top 10 like players
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar
Shaq
Malone K.
LBJ
Elgin

Top 15 like players
Elgin
Malone M.
'Nique
Isiah
J. Kidd

Just off the top of my head.

I have Russell, Oscar, LBJ in the top-5 like players, and def not KG. KG is probably an all-time top 50 player, but certainly not top 5.

Agree.
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greenfrog
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:26 am Post subject:

webattorney wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.

I have Russell, Oscar, LBJ in the top-5 like players, and def not KG. KG is probably an all-time top 50 player, but certainly not top 5.

Agree.

Where's Jerry West?

KG and Hakeem being rated that high is really hard not to laugh at. Might as well put Patrick Ewing up there.

Wilkes52
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:53 am Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

Wilkes52 wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

This might be the worst list I've ever seen.

This might be the best list I've ever seen.

It's close to being both the most Jordan-hating and Laker-centric I've read.

Shaq a coattail rider is Laker-centric?

This part ...

1. Kobe
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt

... is Laker-centric, no ?

Chronicle
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:03 am Post subject:

Why does the top 4 being Lakers make it a bad list? Truth is, Lakers have always had the best players. There's a reason why we have so many championships. Now take your Laker hating to another forum _________________ Kobe

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:20 am Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:

Why does the top 4 being Lakers make it a bad list? Truth is, Lakers have always had the best players. There's a reason why we have so many championships.

Now take your Laker hating to another forum

I love how there only one explanation for a list where the top 4 players are NOT all Lakers and that explanation is that you must hate the Lakers.

Does your GOAT list have the first 100 players as Lakers or are you a Laker hater? Only two options.

noahp45
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Location: Oceanside Ca

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:54 am Post subject:

LakerLand247 wrote:

Dr. Laker wrote:

In order:

KAJ
WILT
LBJ (yeah, blasphemy)
MJ
Kobe (better shooter than MJ, but not as committed on D later in career)
Magic
Russell (hey, he was surrounded by HOF)
Shaq (should be #1, but poor motor/poor work ethic robbed him)
The BIG O (averaged a triple double over a 400+ game stretch)
Mr. Spock, er, Duncan

Lebronze ahead of MJ and Magic?! g.t.f.o here.

This^^^

Zhengi
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:58 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

That isn't evidence of anything any more than the fact that Kobe has never made it past the second round without Derek Fisher.

Well, sure, you can try to make that comparison if Derek Fisher was considered one of the greatest 50 players in the NBA.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:00 pm Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

This might be the worst list I've ever seen.

Not really. If you take off Pippen and put MJ somewhere in the top 5, it's a reasonable list. People see the game differently.

Yinoma and Jodeke sees Miles as being the greatest Jazz Trumpet player of all time and I think that is an absurd opinion in a universe where Clifford Brown lived. But it isn't crazy to look to Miles as GOAT. I mean, it's wrong, but it's not crazy.

Not sure if I ever said that...

As you know I'm a huge fan of Clifford Brown, and it depends on what phase of Miles' career you are talking about.

You guys are on drugs.

1 - Louis Armstrong
2 - Dizzy Gillespie
3 - Miles Davis
4 - Clifford Brown
5 - Freddie Hubbard

And if you're talking IMPACT - Wynton Marsalis moves all the way up to #3.

Come on man. Pops invented the coherent solo and was absolutely a lion in his day, but as an actual trumpet player, he was just playing a different game. Listen to the opening flurry to "West End Blues" and compare it to Clifford's on "Night in Tunisia" Not even the same game. Pops was by far the most influential because of his place in the history of the music but you can't rank him higher than about 5th as a trumpet player.

Dizzy was a true virtuoso but was limited both by a dearth of musical ideas and a pinched embroucher leading to that pinched tone that allowed him to play high and fast but with a pinched sound. And the number of truly great solo's he recorded in his 55 year career was completely dwarfed by the number of great solos that Clifford recorded in his 6 years of recording.

Miles was just limited. He was a genius but he just didn't put in the time on the horn to do what he needed to do when he had to. Eventually, after trying to muddle through fast BeBop with Bird and Diz, he loosened up his embroucher and developed his signature sound. Great innovator, great trumpet player, but he was just afraid of Clifford in every way.

Hubbard was the closest to Clifford in terms of technical ability but his solos lacked coherence and musicality. He doesn't belong in the conversation. He once lamented in an interview that even though he was better technically than Lee Morgan, he knew that Morgan would win a cutting contest because Lee could put it together better.

I'm guessing that you don't play trumpet right? Jazz fans generally give the top three spots to Pops, Diz and Miles, all of whom lived to be 70 or older, but when you ask Jazz trumpet players who was the GOAT, 90% say Clifford. And as a hack Jazz trumpet player, I agree.

Clifford had no weakness as a trumpet player. He was the best technically, he was the strongest, playing 5 minute solos routinely....try that or better yet listen for any other trumpet players playing in the upper register at 200 bpm for 5 minutes. That place is reserved for Clifford and Clifford only. Clifford was a monster on ballads as well and his tone was just so fat and warm. Dude recorded more memorable solos in 6 years than the rest of the top ten did in the collective careers.

Wynton is no musical genius but he has made himself into a truly great trumpet player albeit one lacking in imagination, through hard work. Of his generation only Roy Hargrove is his equal. But he is far and away the greatest speaker and advocate for the music we have ever had.

1. Clifford

2. Lee Morgan
3. Fats Navaro

4. Pops
5. Miles
6. Diz
7. Wynton

8. Nat Adderly
9. Booker Little
10. Howard McGhee

I'm not even going to list Freddie because even he never knew what he wanted to do with his horn.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Posts: 6429

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

webattorney wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.

I have Russell, Oscar, LBJ in the top-5 like players, and def not KG. KG is probably an all-time top 50 player, but certainly not top 5.

Agree.

Where's Jerry West?

KG and Hakeem being rated that high is really hard not to laugh at. Might as well put Patrick Ewing up there.

Sorry about West. Should be in the top 10 type players. I stand by KG and Hakeem
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject:

Zhengi wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

That isn't evidence of anything any more than the fact that Kobe has never made it past the second round without Derek Fisher.

Well, sure, you can try to make that comparison if Derek Fisher was considered one of the greatest 50 players in the NBA.

Well, at least one other person fails to see why comparing ...

- Drexler+Pippen
to
- Jordan (by himself)

... means as much as the ingredient list on this yogurt I ate when it comes to determining anything meaningful whatsoever.

Zhengi
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Posts: 6445

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Zhengi wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

That isn't evidence of anything any more than the fact that Kobe has never made it past the second round without Derek Fisher.

Well, sure, you can try to make that comparison if Derek Fisher was considered one of the greatest 50 players in the NBA.

I don't see where theunknownknight compared Drexler+Pippen to Jordan by himself. I did see him compare Pippen by himself vs Jordan by himself.
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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject:

Zhengi wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

Zhengi wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

That isn't evidence of anything any more than the fact that Kobe has never made it past the second round without Derek Fisher.

Well, sure, you can try to make that comparison if Derek Fisher was considered one of the greatest 50 players in the NBA.

I don't see where theunknownknight compared Drexler+Pippen to Jordan by himself. I did see him compare Pippen by himself vs Jordan by himself.

Go reread it. He said swap out Jordan with Drexler (meaning Drexler+Pippen) versus getting rid of Pippen altogether (meaning, just Jordan).

What say you -- smart or dumb way to compare?

Zhengi
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Posts: 6445

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Zhengi wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

Zhengi wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

LakersInFour wrote:

theunknownknight wrote:

That isn't evidence of anything any more than the fact that Kobe has never made it past the second round without Derek Fisher.

Well, sure, you can try to make that comparison if Derek Fisher was considered one of the greatest 50 players in the NBA.

I don't see where theunknownknight compared Drexler+Pippen to Jordan by himself. I did see him compare Pippen by himself vs Jordan by himself.

Go reread it. He said swap out Jordan with Drexler (meaning Drexler+Pippen) versus getting rid of Pippen altogether (meaning, just Jordan).

What say you -- smart or dumb way to compare?

I did reread it. It wasn't theunknownknight who wrote that. It was LakersInFour.

LakersInFour
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Location: New Mexico

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

What I mean is that there were no players in that era who had Pippen's skillset whom you could swap him out for, and not many ever. You couldn't replace Pippen because there was no one you could replace him with. But you could find a replacement for Jordan and those Bulls teams would still have been dominant in that era ... Mitch Richmond and Clyde Drexler are two that immediately come to mind. Name me a single player of that era who could match Pippen's skillset (hint: It is impossible)

Pippen ran the offense, gave you 20 ppg in scoring, 8 rbs per game, and locked up the opponents best perimeter player so that Jordan could play free safety on defense. At 6'8", Pippen was capable of guarding anyone from Magic Johnson to John Stockton. Jordan didn't guard the best player on the other side of the floor, Pippen did.

Pippen was a (slightly) less athletic version, mentally tougher, more skilled version of Lebron.
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LakersInFour
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Go reread it. He said swap out Jordan with Drexler (meaning Drexler+Pippen) versus getting rid of Pippen altogether (meaning, just Jordan).

What say you -- smart or dumb way to compare?

That is not what I meant. If you took one of the best two players away from any team without replacement it is obvious the team would suffer. That is such an obvious logical conclusion that it is difficult to conceive you were not using a strawman.
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70sdude
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:19 pm Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:

Why does the top 4 being Lakers make it a bad list? Truth is, Lakers have always had the best players. There's a reason why we have so many championships.

Now take your Laker hating to another forum

Now now children.

I have to agree with Wilkes to a fair extent about a GOAT list:

- that places Pippen head of MJ. That's a construct of an impossibly indefensible POV. Next ...

- that presents a list so obviously contrived to leave out of the top three slots every non-Laker owner of four or more MVP awards: Russell, MJ, and LeBron. I agree that a GOAT candidate simply must have earned more than a single MVP. It's one of the key measures of player impact, no avoiding it To build such a list smacks of snarky Laker homerism at the least, and probably a deep seated comparative dislike for LeBron, Bill Russell and Jordan.

kikanga
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject:

LakersInFour wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

I really don't think playing a game of what if is very purposeful. I mean we can hypothesize all we like about what would have happened if we swapped this person for that person but that doesn't do anything than serve as poor, hypothetical evidence to substantiate whatever claim we're ultimately trying to make.

I don't disagree with the things you're saying about Pippen's role. It makes sense that he would get more rebounds playing as an SF than Jordan. It makes sense that you would put him on your opponent's best player since you're running your entire offense through Jordan. After all, it wouldn't make much sense to generate the vast majority of your team's scoring through one person, the vast majority of the playmaking through that person, then also put him defensively on the opposing team's best offensive player, and then just for fun ask him to grab a lot of rebounds too for good measure. How would it make sense to do that unless you had no other option?

If you want to make the case that Pippen was more multi-dimensional, maybe there is an argument there. I'm pretty sure even the most passionate of Kobe fans wouldn't argue with the statement that Lebron is a more multi-dimensional player than Kobe ever was. Heck, you know who was more multi-dimensional than both of those guys? Andrei Kirilenko in his prime. Sure, there was no one I can think of that could replicate what Kirilenko was able to do in years like 2003/2004/2005. I don't even know if there has ever been an NBA player who can beat AK47's ridiculous stat lines those seasons across all categories (16 PPG/8 RPG/4 AST/2 STL/3 BLK) but that doesn't make him BETTER than everyone else either.

watchME
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject:

Most accomplished players: russel jordan kareem magic kobe duncan shaq bird hakeem best, and most skilled BASKETBALL players: jordan kobe magic oscar bird lebron mcgrady hakeem cp3 these guys can do it all, shoot, rebound, play D, post up, dribble..to me thats a basketball player. Shaq, duncan etc just happen to be 7" and no1 can stop them..

Dr. Laker
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

I'm guessing that you don't play trumpet right? Jazz fans generally give the top three spots to Pops, Diz and Miles, all of whom lived to be 70 or older, but when you ask Jazz trumpet players who was the GOAT, 90% say Clifford. And as a hack Jazz trumpet player, I agree.

Point given. Not a trumpet player, but a big bebop, hard bop and cool jazz guy.

Given Brown's short career, I cannot put him higher in my pantheon. Ditto Lee Morgan, Booker Little and Fats Navaro. If you die before you're 35, you haven't experienced enough to crystalize your genius.

Quote:

I'm not even going to list Freddie because even he never knew what he wanted to do with his horn.

Freddie gets a lot of flak for "selling out" in the late 70s/80s and going disco/funk/pop. Hey - the guy had to eat. But he was a jazz genius. I'll defer to you on his technical ability on the trumpet, but the man did his thing in the 60s.
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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:35 pm Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

Quote:

I'm not even going to list Freddie because even he never knew what he wanted to do with his horn.

Hoobastank.

Cmon guys.

moonriver24
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject:

I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence). Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples Last edited by moonriver24 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Drifts
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject:

watchME wrote:

Most accomplished players:

russel
jordan
kareem
magic
kobe
duncan
shaq
bird
hakeem

best, and most skilled BASKETBALL players:

jordan
kobe
magic
oscar
bird
lebron
mcgrady
hakeem
cp3

these guys can do it all, shoot, rebound, play D, post up, dribble..to me thats a basketball player. Shaq, duncan etc just happen to be 7" and no1 can stop them..

CP3???

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LakersInFour
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Posts: 6725
Location: New Mexico

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:22 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

As subjective as the discussion of "Best" is, it's pretty universal that a chip, and more likely multiple chips, is a requirement to be in the discussion.

Bottom line is that I don't buy into the indisputable notion that Jordan is the greatest basketball player to have ever lived - I that guy's initials are KAJ. In the case of Pippen, people conveniently and constantly underrate him in an effort to prop Jordan up as some sort of basketball Demigod.

If I had to choose an all-time great to start a franchise with, I take Kareem as my first choice. Jordan is somewhere in my top ten, maybe top five, but I can think of at least three players I would rather have than Jordan.
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