Wade called Kobe : " The second best player of all time"
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:28 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


But that's a large reflection on the GM, team's FO too. Some players never had terrible supporting casts, and that shouldn't be used against them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject:

LakersInFour wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I really don't think playing a game of what if is very purposeful. I mean we can hypothesize all we like about what would have happened if we swapped this person for that person but that doesn't do anything than serve as poor, hypothetical evidence to substantiate whatever claim we're ultimately trying to make.

I don't disagree with the things you're saying about Pippen's role. It makes sense that he would get more rebounds playing as an SF than Jordan. It makes sense that you would put him on your opponent's best player since you're running your entire offense through Jordan. After all, it wouldn't make much sense to generate the vast majority of your team's scoring through one person, the vast majority of the playmaking through that person, then also put him defensively on the opposing team's best offensive player, and then just for fun ask him to grab a lot of rebounds too for good measure. How would it make sense to do that unless you had no other option?

If you want to make the case that Pippen was more multi-dimensional, maybe there is an argument there. I'm pretty sure even the most passionate of Kobe fans wouldn't argue with the statement that Lebron is a more multi-dimensional player than Kobe ever was. Heck, you know who was more multi-dimensional than both of those guys? Andrei Kirilenko in his prime. Sure, there was no one I can think of that could replicate what Kirilenko was able to do in years like 2003/2004/2005. I don't even know if there has ever been an NBA player who can beat AK47's ridiculous stat lines those seasons across all categories (16 PPG/8 RPG/4 AST/2 STL/3 BLK) but that doesn't make him BETTER than everyone else either.


As subjective as the discussion of "Best" is, it's pretty universal that a chip, and more likely multiple chips, is a requirement to be in the discussion.

Bottom line is that I don't buy into the indisputable notion that Jordan is the greatest basketball player to have ever lived - I that guy's initials are KAJ. In the case of Pippen, people conveniently and constantly underrate him in an effort to prop Jordan up as some sort of basketball Demigod.

If I had to choose an all-time great to start a franchise with, I take Kareem as my first choice. Jordan is somewhere in my top ten, maybe top five, but I can think of at least three players I would rather have than Jordan.


That's fine. And I could probably say something along the lines of ...

Quote:
There were no players in that era who had Magic Johnsons's skillset whom you could swap him out for, and not many ever. You couldn't replace Magic because there was no one you could replace him with. But you could find a replacement for KAJ and those Lakers teams would still have been dominant in that era ... Moses Malone immediately comes to mind. Name me a single player of that era who could match Magic Johnson's skillset (hint: It is impossible)


... and that changes nothing for you in terms of your opinion, right? That argument doesn't work for KAJ/Magic so why should it work for Jordan/Pippen? (hint: it shouldn't).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:09 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.

Except that you deliberately left out an important fact that he was grossly injured during the "third team all nba" season. The lousiest team still made the rising Suns sweat in the playoffs. It was all possible becuase of Kobe. That team had no business competing in the strong western c. Yet, Kobe made the scrubs looked like starters materials.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:34 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.

Except that you deliberately left out an important fact that he was grossly injured during the "third team all nba" season. The lousiest team still made the rising Suns sweat in the playoffs. It was all possible becuase of Kobe. That team had no business competing in the strong western c. Yet, Kobe made the scrubs looked like starters materials.


I think it's fair to give Kobe some credit for those teams exceeding expectations, but not much. Missing the playoffs or a first round exit, even with a poor supporting cast, just shouldn't count for much of anything positive or negative.

That's why I wouldn't penalize Kobe by the same margin for underperforming with what was expected to be a championship team that included Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash, etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.

Except that you deliberately left out an important fact that he was grossly injured during the "third team all nba" season. The lousiest team still made the rising Suns sweat in the playoffs. It was all possible becuase of Kobe. That team had no business competing in the strong western c. Yet, Kobe made the scrubs looked like starters materials.


I think it's fair to give Kobe some credit for those teams exceeding expectations, but not much. Missing the playoffs or a first round exit, even with a poor supporting cast, just shouldn't count for much of anything positive or negative.

That's why I wouldn't penalize Kobe by the same margin for underperforming with what was expected to be a championship team that included Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash, etc.
what? Underperforming? LMAO! Had kobe not performed to death (and thus suffered that season ending injury) despite his age, Lakers wouldn't have made it to the playoffs. That team was cursed with multiple injuries.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.

Except that you deliberately left out an important fact that he was grossly injured during the "third team all nba" season. The lousiest team still made the rising Suns sweat in the playoffs. It was all possible becuase of Kobe. That team had no business competing in the strong western c. Yet, Kobe made the scrubs looked like starters materials.


I think it's fair to give Kobe some credit for those teams exceeding expectations, but not much. Missing the playoffs or a first round exit, even with a poor supporting cast, just shouldn't count for much of anything positive or negative.

That's why I wouldn't penalize Kobe by the same margin for underperforming with what was expected to be a championship team that included Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash, etc.
what? Underperforming? LMAO! Had kobe not performed to death (and thus suffered that season ending injury) despite his age, Lakers wouldn't have made it to the playoffs. That team was cursed with multiple injuries.


That team was supposed to get to the NBA Finals. They did not overperform to expectations. They underperformed.

The goal is to win championships. That's what you get credit for.

I understand wanting to try to find ways to give certain players extra credit and ignore ways to take away credit. But no one should ever get credit for missing the playoffs. Or getting swept in the first round.

I mean, why not just say you want to give a player 2 cookies for not being the most abominable team ever. Great. Awesome.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.

Except that you deliberately left out an important fact that he was grossly injured during the "third team all nba" season. The lousiest team still made the rising Suns sweat in the playoffs. It was all possible becuase of Kobe. That team had no business competing in the strong western c. Yet, Kobe made the scrubs looked like starters materials.


I think it's fair to give Kobe some credit for those teams exceeding expectations, but not much. Missing the playoffs or a first round exit, even with a poor supporting cast, just shouldn't count for much of anything positive or negative.

That's why I wouldn't penalize Kobe by the same margin for underperforming with what was expected to be a championship team that included Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash, etc.
what? Underperforming? LMAO! Had kobe not performed to death (and thus suffered that season ending injury) despite his age, Lakers wouldn't have made it to the playoffs. That team was cursed with multiple injuries.


That team was supposed to get to the NBA Finals. They did not overperform to expectations. They underperformed.

The goal is to win championships. That's what you get credit for.

I understand wanting to try to find ways to give certain players extra credit and ignore ways to take away credit. But no one should ever get credit for missing the playoffs. Or getting swept in the first round.

I mean, why not just say you want to give a player 2 cookies for not being the most abominable team ever. Great. Awesome.

Wow. Did you see Kobe in the playoffs? Oh wait.
Now, on championships, I guess Lebron is still far away from being top 10.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


If generating wins with the least amount of supporting casts is a GOAT measurement then do you bump Hakeem (94), Duncan (03) and Dirk (11) for generating a title with their supporting casts (all lacked another player playing at a star level)? Neither went through a weak conference either and beat tons of stars along the way (Drexler, Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Ewing in 94; Shaq/Kobe, Dirk, Kidd in 03; Kobe, Durant/Westbrook, LeBron/Wade/Bosh in 11).

If a measurement is generating wins with sorry supporting casts then you are gonna open up the debate to a lot of other guys....


Last edited by Dreamshake on Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:22 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
I think one measurement to evaluate a GOAT is the ability to generate wins with the least of supporting casts. This is a more honest way of evaluating who the great ones are. In this respect, Kobe in his prime is arguably unmatchable. (Well, you can call me kobe biggest baised fan but you must first prove it with any evidence).

Edit: we also need to honestly evaluate the strength of the conference in which the team played.


2005-2007 is why he's the GOAT? That team was lousy. One of those years he only made third team All-NBA.

Except that you deliberately left out an important fact that he was grossly injured during the "third team all nba" season. The lousiest team still made the rising Suns sweat in the playoffs. It was all possible becuase of Kobe. That team had no business competing in the strong western c. Yet, Kobe made the scrubs looked like starters materials.


I didn't deliberately leave it out. I honestly don't remember it that way. He played 66 games, which is about on par with previous championship seasons. That Suns series is only impressive to a point. They actually choked the series away. Kobe was called out by Phil for taking too many shots after the Game 6 loss, and followed it up barely taking any in the second half of the Game 7 blowout. A couple months later he asked for a trade.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
webattorney wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.


Top 5 like players
Kobe
MJ
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
KG

Top 10 like players
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar
Shaq
Malone K.
LBJ
Elgin

Top 15 like players
Elgin
Malone M.
'Nique
Isiah
J. Kidd


Just off the top of my head.


I have Russell, Oscar, LBJ in the top-5 like players, and def not KG. KG is probably an all-time top 50 player, but certainly not top 5.


Agree.


Where's Jerry West?

KG and Hakeem being rated that high is really hard not to laugh at. Might as well put Patrick Ewing up there.


Ewing did the following:

- won a MVP
- led a team to two titles (repeat)
- retired in the top 10 in points, boards, blcoks and steals (only player in league history to do that)

I don't think so.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
webattorney wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
^ LBJ = top 10 in my book, and this is coming from someone who really didn't like LBJ especially after the Decision. Like pure haterade fashion.


Top 5 like players
Kobe
MJ
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
KG

Top 10 like players
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar
Shaq
Malone K.
LBJ
Elgin

Top 15 like players
Elgin
Malone M.
'Nique
Isiah
J. Kidd


Just off the top of my head.


I have Russell, Oscar, LBJ in the top-5 like players, and def not KG. KG is probably an all-time top 50 player, but certainly not top 5.


Agree.


Where's Jerry West?

KG and Hakeem being rated that high is really hard not to laugh at. Might as well put Patrick Ewing up there.


Ewing did the following:

- won a MVP
- led a team to two titles (repeat)
- retired in the top 10 in points, boards, blcoks and steals (only player in league history to do that)

I don't think so.


One fewer John Starks 2-for-16 game (0-for-10 in the 4th of Game 7) and he was as many championships as Hakeem. Those were the definition of "down years" in the league as well. Once Jordan came back in basketball shape the Bulls didn't miss a beat, and the Rockets were quickly forgotten.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
One fewer John Starks 2-for-16 game (0-for-10 in the 4th of Game 7) and he was as many championships as Hakeem. Those were the definition of "down years" in the league as well. Once Jordan came back in basketball shape the Bulls didn't miss a beat, and the Rockets were quickly forgotten.


We can make these kind of excuses for any year we choose. I mean, if we wanna play the what if game then I can say "what if Hakeem had a 2nd star for the majority of his career like most multiple title winners".

At the end of the day, Hakeem's resume of what actually happened is why he is mentioned that highly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
One fewer John Starks 2-for-16 game (0-for-10 in the 4th of Game 7) and he was as many championships as Hakeem. Those were the definition of "down years" in the league as well. Once Jordan came back in basketball shape the Bulls didn't miss a beat, and the Rockets were quickly forgotten.


We can make these kind of excuses for any year we choose. I mean, if we wanna play the what if game then I can say "what if Hakeem had a 2nd star for the majority of his career like most multiple title winners".

At the end of the day, Hakeem's resume of what actually happened is why he is mentioned that highly.


Okay... why shouldn't George Mikan then be ranked higher than Hakeem? My point being that everyone uses context and circumstances in determining who is better and which accomplishment is greater, not just "what actually happened".
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
One fewer John Starks 2-for-16 game (0-for-10 in the 4th of Game 7) and he was as many championships as Hakeem. Those were the definition of "down years" in the league as well. Once Jordan came back in basketball shape the Bulls didn't miss a beat, and the Rockets were quickly forgotten.


We can make these kind of excuses for any year we choose. I mean, if we wanna play the what if game then I can say "what if Hakeem had a 2nd star for the majority of his career like most multiple title winners".

At the end of the day, Hakeem's resume of what actually happened is why he is mentioned that highly.


Okay... why shouldn't George Mikan then be ranked higher than Hakeem? My point being that everyone uses context and circumstances in determining who is better and which accomplishment is greater, not just "what actually happened".


George Mikan led teams to titles. Patrick Ewing did not. Patrick Ewing had a chance to get his title against Hakeem. He was dominated.

If you want to use context and circumstances that works in Hakeem's favor. Of all the multiple title winners he arguably played with less supporting talent than the rest. Give him Pippen and Rodman and I think he would win titles. Or Kobe. Or Magic. Or McHale, Parish and DJ. Etc. The excuse you make for why Hakeem won, I could use that same excuse in years that he lost. I could use that same excuse from that series. What if the Rockets PG's don't shoot 3-14 in G2? What if the Rockets guards don't shoot a combined 8-25 in G4? What if Horry and Maxwell don't combine to shoot 5-25 in G5? Context and circumstances?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:14 pm    Post subject:

Patrick Ewing was in a Snickers commercial IIRC. Take that Hakeem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
One fewer John Starks 2-for-16 game (0-for-10 in the 4th of Game 7) and he was as many championships as Hakeem. Those were the definition of "down years" in the league as well. Once Jordan came back in basketball shape the Bulls didn't miss a beat, and the Rockets were quickly forgotten.


We can make these kind of excuses for any year we choose. I mean, if we wanna play the what if game then I can say "what if Hakeem had a 2nd star for the majority of his career like most multiple title winners".

At the end of the day, Hakeem's resume of what actually happened is why he is mentioned that highly.


Okay... why shouldn't George Mikan then be ranked higher than Hakeem? My point being that everyone uses context and circumstances in determining who is better and which accomplishment is greater, not just "what actually happened".


George Mikan led teams to titles. Patrick Ewing did not. Patrick Ewing had a chance to get his title against Hakeem. He was dominated.

If you want to use context and circumstances that works in Hakeem's favor. Of all the multiple title winners he arguably played with less supporting talent than the rest. Give him Pippen and Rodman and I think he would win titles. Or Kobe. Or Magic. Or McHale, Parish and DJ. Etc. The excuse you make for why Hakeem won, I could use that same excuse in years that he lost. I could use that same excuse from that series. What if the Rockets PG's don't shoot 3-14 in G2? What if the Rockets guards don't shoot a combined 8-25 in G4? What if Horry and Maxwell don't combine to shoot 5-25 in G5? Context and circumstances?


Ewing was outplayed and yet the series still went 7 games. What I actually believe, and is supported somewhat by your stats, is that neither team was very good, and someone had to win since Jordan was busy trying to hit a curveball. But without those championships is Hakeem regarded as better than West or Baylor? The Big O? Of course he isn't, nor was he even in the discussion at that point. Way too much is put on championships in these lists, particularly if the league is woefully down at that time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Ewing was outplayed and yet the series still went 7 games.


Yes, because a supporting cast matters and there were games where Hakeem's supporting cast played just as poorly as Starks did in G7.

greenfrog wrote:
What I actually believe, and is supported somewhat by your stats, is that neither team was very good, and someone had to win since Jordan was busy trying to hit a curveball.


Both teams were very good. They were just defensive teams.

greenfrog wrote:
But without those championships is Hakeem regarded as better than West or Baylor? The Big O? Of course he isn't, nor was he even in the discussion at that point. Way too much is put on championships in these lists, particularly if the league is woefully down at that time.


No player without championships is making anyone's top 10 list. The league was woefully down in 94/95, when teams had the following combos on their rosters (Ewing/Oakley/Mason/Starks, Malone/Stockton/Hornacek, Barkley/KJ, Payton/Kemp, Robinson/Rodman, Shaq/Penny, Miller/Smits/Davis boys)? Um, that looks like all the same teams that were there from 93-98.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:16 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
... and that changes nothing for you in terms of your opinion, right? That argument doesn't work for KAJ/Magic so why should it work for Jordan/Pippen? (hint: it shouldn't).


I see the point you are attempting to make, but I don't think it works.

It isn't necessary for Magic/KAJ because no one disputes Magic or Kareem as belonging among the all time greats, but you don't see many people putting Scottie Pippen in the top 10 of all time. Magic and KAJ had better synergy than Jordan Pippen due to their roles as post-player and ball-handler, while Pippen and Jordan were both perimeter players; nor did the prime playing years of KAJ and Magic overlap. No post-teammate years to compare as in the case of Jordan and Pippen.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Patrick Ewing was in a Snickers commercial IIRC. Take that Hakeem.


He was also on an episode of Webster....Boomshakalaka.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

No player without championships is making anyone's top 10 list. The league was woefully down in 94/95, when teams had the following combos on their rosters (Ewing/Oakley/Mason/Starks, Malone/Stockton/Hornacek, Barkley/KJ, Payton/Kemp, Robinson/Rodman, Shaq/Penny, Miller/Smits/Davis boys)? Um, that looks like all the same teams that were there from 93-98.


yeah, except for one team that's missing... I do take back the Ewing jab though. That was unfair.

(Robinson/Rodman)!

BTW, It would have been heresy not to include Baylor, who never won a championship, in the top 10 discussion until about 10-15 years ago. 9 of the spots were pretty much locked in. All there was to argue was about placing and the 10th man.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject:

people are forgetting one major factor….KOBE HAS WON WITH LESS THAN ANY OTHER OF THE ALL-TIME GREATS. AND HE DID IT BACK-TO-BACK!! COME ON, NOW. He won with Pau as the 2nd best player on the team…that's like LeBron winning with Bosh as the 2nd best, Magic winning with Worthy as the 2nd best, Bird winning with Parrish as the 2nd best, or MJ winning with Rodman as the 2nd best. people are forgetting how much better Kobe in his absolute prime (2006-2010) was than pretty much anyone who has ever played. there's a reason why he's the only player to score 80+ in this modern era. I can't believe how the media has ya'll by the balls, smfh.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject:

Wilkes52 wrote:
I don't think Kobe's top five, maybe not even top ten all-time.

NBA players with only one league MVP award - or fewer - don't have the resume to contend seriously for all-time GOAT status, and perhaps not for top ten status all-time as well.

Without multiple MVP status, a player had competition in their own era of equivalent - or greater - power. Only players who have more than one league MVP contend for all-time GOAT status, and that's who's in the top five.

So it's an elimination status for many greats, including:

Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson

These are all excellent, remarkable, HOF-worthy, NBA top 50, championship winners of the highest honors in the game. They might even represent personal faves, or players you personally would choose over any other for an ultimate "what-if" dream team face-off.

But a top five all-time guy earned his second league MVP; if he didn't, his game was lacking something.




so you believe that steve nash was a better player than kobe bryant in his prime? slap yaself right now, my dude. the mvp award is nothing more than a popularity contest. u know who votes for it? the media. muthaeffin journalists are literally the ones who vote for who wins MVP. do u even listen to talk radio? a good portion nba journalists flat out HATE kobe, for one reason or another. the rape trial means he never had the chance to be shoved in our face as an NBA child the way Stern did Jordan+the fact that Kobe is a down-to-business anti-social sociopath is the only reason he doesn't have at least 3-4 MVP's. but you already knew that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Top 5:

Tupac
Biggie
JayZ
Eminem
NWA


u lost credibility when u listed Jay-Z….and NWA is a group.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Top 5:

Tupac
Biggie
JayZ
Eminem
NWA


u lost credibility when u listed Jay-Z….and NWA is a group.
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