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Wade called Kobe : " The second best player of all time"
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Dreamshake
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

24 wrote:

But peak to peak there is a lot to like with Kobe over LBJ.

Such as? I'm asusming we are talking stats here, since the post was referencing a stat. LeBron seems to have a higher peak in everything but scoring (where Kobe took an extra 7 shots a night) and FT shooting.

How about the most important stat? Championships.

Since the discussion was about peak I am assuming we were talking about individual metrics, not team ones (ie championships).

If lebron putting up peak stats and kawhi still beating him (and winning finals MVP) is your argument. I don't think it's a good one.

Chips>stats

Air conditioner> lebron

I didn't realize Kawhi and LeBron were playing 1-1 for the title.

KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject:

saacman5033 wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

He's like a butterknife, I'm a machete.

Wait, I thought he was butter and you were homogenized milk

swoosh. BBG will recognize the reference.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

activeverb
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Posts: 37470

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:35 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Agreed, and in that context ranking LBJ over Kobe is absurd. .

Has anyone in this long thread actually argued that to date LBJ's career is better than Kobe's? If so, I missed it.

Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

24 wrote:

But peak to peak there is a lot to like with Kobe over LBJ.

How about the most important stat? Championships.

Since the discussion was about peak I am assuming we were talking about individual metrics, not team ones (ie championships).

If lebron putting up peak stats and kawhi still beating him (and winning finals MVP) is your argument. I don't think it's a good one.

Chips>stats

Air conditioner> lebron

When Kobe was putting up peak stats, Nash was beating him and winning regular season MVPs. The problem with these rankings arguments is that even the mostly poorly thought out opinions can be backed up by beautiful statistics.

I've seen people put importance in certain areas, whether it be championships, mvps, scoring titles, or what have you for a certain player just to turn around and marginalize those exact same accomplishments for unliked players that beat them in those categories.

KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

24 wrote:

But peak to peak there is a lot to like with Kobe over LBJ.

How about the most important stat? Championships.

Since the discussion was about peak I am assuming we were talking about individual metrics, not team ones (ie championships).

If lebron putting up peak stats and kawhi still beating him (and winning finals MVP) is your argument. I don't think it's a good one.

Chips>stats

Air conditioner> lebron

Yep
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

Omar Little
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Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

24 wrote:

It is not so cut and dry as some would have it. Kobe has a slightly better shot to assist ratio than my does, and his true shooting percentage of .555 is, era adjusted, right there with Jordan's .569.

MJ's number includes his years with the Wizards as an old man. His TS% was under .500 both years. Prior to that, his career low in a full season was .533, and his peak numbers were over .600. Kobe's best year was .580, and most of his peak years were in the .550-.560 range. It may not be cut and dry, but there is a substantial gap nonetheless.

Those last couple years account for about 10% of his possessions, and don't move his career needle. Accounting for era, he still doesn't top Kobe in comparative ts% by much, and has the lower assist ratio. And most of his best efficiency years were prior to the titles. I believe mj is the superior player because of his superior physical gifts, but to act like Kobe is in some inferior efficiency realm just isn't statistically there.
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Sccit
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Posts: 886

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:23 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Agreed, and in that context ranking LBJ over Kobe is absurd. .

Has anyone in this long thread actually argued that to date LBJ's career is better than Kobe's? If so, I missed it.

A few sheeple actually have

activeverb
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Posts: 37470

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:

I've seen people put importance in certain areas, whether it be championships, mvps, scoring titles, or what have you for a certain player just to turn around and marginalize those exact same accomplishments for unliked players that beat them in those categories.

That's human nature. People start off with the result they want. And then they create some formula or justification that seems to support the result. The problem is the result didn't really come from the formula or justification, so the formula leads to contradictions and illogic when applied to other players.

And let's face it -- LG isn't exactly a hot bed of deep thought and intellectual rigor. It's mostly really emotional people butting heads, and patting themselves on the back of how brilliant they are while their opponents think they're idiots, and vice versa.

There is the rare exception, but not too many. I get the impression most people are here just to blow off steam in one way or the other. And that's cool. It's just an Internet discussion board -- 99% of them (especially on topics like sports) are just people with average brains and half-formed thoughts screaming at each other.

Last edited by activeverb on Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

kikanga
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

24 wrote:

But peak to peak there is a lot to like with Kobe over LBJ.

How about the most important stat? Championships.

Since the discussion was about peak I am assuming we were talking about individual metrics, not team ones (ie championships).

If lebron putting up peak stats and kawhi still beating him (and winning finals MVP) is your argument. I don't think it's a good one.

Chips>stats

Air conditioner> lebron

I didn't realize Kawhi and LeBron were playing 1-1 for the title.

*That's what this whole thread is about. Is kobe a top player of all time. Not did kobe play for the best teams all time.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

Treble Clef wrote:

Speak for yourself son.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

kikanga
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:

When talking about the greatest players of all time. Championships is the most important thing to judge them on. If they are a benchwarmer who grabs a couple chips, they aren't considered great players and aren't pertinent to this discussion.

If you are a poster using lebrons superior rebounding and assist stats to justify ranking him above Kobe all time, it is absurd. Even if you are rating player peaks against one another, what matters is results.

Stats are based on the needs of the team that the player is playing on. I've never heard a top 10 NBA player of all time say they would trade away chips for better stats (or better peak stas). It doesn't happen.

I admit championships aren't the only thing. But they are the most important thing because it sets the standard. It is one common goal that every great player in the league is competing for every single season.

Kobe wasn't trying to drop triple doubles like lebron in his peak. He was trying to win. That shouldn't be held against him.
Same goes for lebron. He doesn't drop great stats for stats sake. He does it to win games and win championships. And when compared to Kobe in that arena, he falls short.
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activeverb
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

activeverb wrote:

Treble Clef wrote:

Speak for yourself son.

Believe me, if I were your son, I'd get down on my knees and pray that my mom had had an affair with the mailman

Just kidding, of course

I do think that Hunter guy and a couple of other posters are pretty smart, and talk about basketball in a way that tells me stuff I didn't know. But mostly (especially in the offseason), it's just a small group of people recycling the same few opinions they've said 1000 times before.

And I certainly am guilty of that too. And certainly I am sure some of the posters might be smart in other areas of their life.

KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player

Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

activeverb wrote:

Treble Clef wrote:

Speak for yourself son.

Believe me, if I were your son, I'd get down on my knees and pray that my mom had had an affair with the mailman

Just kidding, of course

Fair enough!
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player

Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:02 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

activeverb wrote:

Treble Clef wrote:

Speak for yourself son.

Believe me, if I were your son, I'd get down on my knees and pray that my mom had had an affair with the mailman

Just kidding, of course

AH is smart and his work on the CBA and the lockout was legendary. But he doesn't talk basketball at all. He talks stats. The people here who know and talk about basketball are few and far between. DB, PnP, WPL, 24, and a few others. The rest of us have a some amount of knowledge of the game ranging from fair to midlin' but like giving our personal opinions of the game because we have a passion for it. At least that what it says here.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

ringfinger
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Posts: 29418

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject:

Lakers 4 eva wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

kikanga wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

kikanga wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

24 wrote:

But peak to peak there is a lot to like with Kobe over LBJ.

How about the most important stat? Championships.

Kobe is 5 for 7 in the finals.

The hype machine LBJ is 2 for 5.

Before you blame LBJ's supporting cast remember that every team LBJ has been on has been built around him. Chris Bosh had to shoot 3's as a center because lebron needs to get in the paint to dominate the game.

If kobe played with Bosh, Chris would still be able to play to his strengths in the offense (like Pau did).

Pathetic. Kobe can dominate the game with two bigs on the floor clogging the paint. Plus he will take the big shot instead of relying on Ray Allen to do the dirty work.

LBJ chokes late in games (especially in the finals). Dude was shut down by a faulty AC. Pathetic.

Kawhi Leonard got finals MVP! And that was Lebron's man to guard! How embarassing.

People give LBJ credit for doing everything well. But that's also why his teammates tend to look like scrubs around him. He minimizes star players around him and turns them into roll players (I.E. Wade, Bosh, Shaq, etc.). Only person who can turn a star player into a roll player better than LBJ is MDA.

Somehow everyone thinks it's a good thing that Lebron turns all his teammates into jumpshooters alienated in the offense.

.

Rings is a poor state to use in isolation as Robert Horry has as many as Kobe and Lebron combined.

Same can be said about stats (the only argument for bron). Oscar Robertson at his peak averaged a triple double. Guess that makes him better than MJ, kobe, and bron....not.

Which is exactly why no single stat, or any single observation, should ever be used in any sort of meaningful analysis.

Both should be utilized. At all times.

Agreed, and in that context ranking LBJ over Kobe is absurd.

Also somethings are more important than others (i.e. winning>stats). All the nba greats know that, even lebron. Otherwise he would have never left Cleveland in the first place.

Well, I don't disagree with the opinion that winning>stats, but I don't think winning alone necessarily makes you a better player either. Too many sub-standard players have won a lot.

No one is comparing substandard players here. Only all time greats, so bringing up Horry, Fisher or any other roleplayer who were lucky enough to win multiple titles doesn't really count.

Sure, but if winning > stats, then is your list just all of the all-time greats sorted by number of championships?

Lakers 4 eva
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Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 3820
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:43 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Lakers 4 eva wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

kikanga wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

kikanga wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

24 wrote:

But peak to peak there is a lot to like with Kobe over LBJ.

Rings is a poor state to use in isolation as Robert Horry has as many as Kobe and Lebron combined.

Same can be said about stats (the only argument for bron). Oscar Robertson at his peak averaged a triple double. Guess that makes him better than MJ, kobe, and bron....not.

Which is exactly why no single stat, or any single observation, should ever be used in any sort of meaningful analysis.

Both should be utilized. At all times.

Well, I don't disagree with the opinion that winning>stats, but I don't think winning alone necessarily makes you a better player either. Too many sub-standard players have won a lot.

No one is comparing substandard players here. Only all time greats, so bringing up Horry, Fisher or any other roleplayer who were lucky enough to win multiple titles doesn't really count.

Sure, but if winning > stats, then is your list just all of the all-time greats sorted by number of championships?

Don't be obtuse. It's a mixture of winning/stats/eyetest. If anyone ranked them by championships alone then Russell would be 1 and if stats alone then Wilt would win by a landslide. The fact that you brought up Horry in your earlier post just means you're reaching. So roleplayer championships count the same as lead guys now? Also I believe Wade mentioned this to prop his own legacy up.

Aeneas Hunter
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Posts: 31763

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:44 am Post subject:

24 wrote:

10% of his career possessions absolutely do move the needle. Someone calculated MJ's TS% with the Bulls in one of these threads or in some other discussion. I think it was close to .590, but I couldn't swear to that.

I'm not sure where the "era" argument is coming from or what basis such an argument would have. I've never seen anyone make that argument before.

I'm not sure about the relevance of "assist ratio," as you call it. MJ had a higher Assist% over the course of his career, but the numbers are so close that it's a wash (24.9 vs. 24.3).

Kobe's peak efficiency years also came in non-title years. In fact, the years that form the basis for the pro-Kobe argument (in particular '06 and '07) were years when the Lakers barely made the playoffs. At that point in time, Kobe was widely perceived as playing selfishly and chasing stats. There was a similar period in MJ's career

Anyway, MJ wins the efficiency argument handily. In fact, you may be the first person I have ever seen dispute the point.

Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:52 am Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

Good heavens, man. You've already told us us how smart you are, how rich you are, how well educated you are, and how little you care about what other people think. Apparently, you don't realize that no one is impressed, and in fact that most people are rolling their eyes. Now you want to start grading posters, holding up PnP as the forum's basketball expert once again. Get over yourself.

If you don't understand sports stats, that's cool. However, they aren't going away just because you aren't conversant in them. You just aren't that important.

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:00 am Post subject:

Lakers 4 eva wrote:

Hey, I totally agree with you. You can't just mention championships and say THIS is why Player A is better than Player B even among the all-time greats. Which is what the person I was originally replying was attempting to do.

The reason Kobe > Lebron over their careers isn't because of championships. It's because of a combination of championships, passing the sniff test (or eye test as you call it), and while his stats aren't as gaudy as LBJ's, they are right there. And there's other variables we might throw in the mix as well. It's all of those factors together.

It's ironic in a way, because a lot of people say rings > stats, but, it's essentially stats that qualifies two players for a valid comparison to begin with, not rings.

KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:05 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

Oh, the irony
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:14 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

My favorite KBCB quote:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

I'd be willing to bet that, with a greater than 99% chance of accuracy, the worst year I have had financially in the past 15 years is better than the best year you have ever had.

Yikes! Why is it so hard to meet on the middle on this? Observation allows us to see things stats can't see. And stats allow us to see things that either cannot be reasonably observed. Marry the two together.

moonriver24
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Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:32 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

moonriver24 wrote:

Keep assuming dude.
Listen to the conversation again between a well respected sportscaster Simmons and the supposedly comedian who took Wooden"s words OUT OF CONTEXT (lol) or worst, TWISTED TO MAKE KOBE THE GOAT.

HOW CAN YOU KNOW IT WAS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT?

THE COMEDIAN WAS WELL SPOKEN AND NOT DRUNKEN WHEN THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE WITH BILL FREAKING SIMMONS.

Just give it up already. Why are you trying so hard to convince me that Super Dave Osborne's words are gospel?

Why are you trying hard to convince me to give it up? LOL.

Quote:

I don't care about Super Dave Osborne and you know nothing about him either.

LMAO. Do you know Bill Simmons in person?

Quote:

Nothing about what you have said changes the fact that you, nor I, nor anyone can verify those words were ever actually spoken. It just doesn't make much sense to put forth, as your case, a statement that Bill said Tom told him that Nancy said that Barbara's aunt once overheard a conversation with Bill Bob and Hootsack about the time that Peter heard Holly say that her kids read the lips of Margaret saying to Edith that James Naismith's last words were Ko ..... Bee.....

You are funny. It seems like you try to twist the comedian's words to fit your agenda. He said he had a conversation with the late legendary coach. He did not say, "I heard from FunnyRing that coach Wooden said Kobe was the best."

Try again. Give the audience here the quate from the comedian as he talked to Simmons. You are smart. We all believe you can make a proper quote. Enlighten us.
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Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:37 am Post subject:

^ You do realize the Bill Simmons wasn't talking to John Wooden in that interview, right?

moonriver24
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Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:39 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

24 wrote:

MJ might have a slight efficiency edge but Kobe has a better rate of being double-, triple-, quadruple- and team-teamed than MJ or any other player on the planet. Two or three points scored by way of beating any of these defensive scheme shall not be judged with the normal two or three points.

The stats, advanced or not, did not and cannot tell the whole story.
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Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:43 am Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

24 wrote:

No one is saying the stats tell the whole story. Did anyone actually say that?

If Kobe was double/triple/quadruple teamed more than MJ, then shouldn't he have more assists?

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