It appears that a lot of you have no idea what the question being asked is.
This isn't about who is better. It's about IMPACT!!!
This.
It's not about who was better. It's not about their past performances. It's about impact.
I think Showtime Lakers had a good chance of reaching the Finals without Worthy, maybe not a lock, but they had a good chance. Can you say the same if we kept Kwame instead of Pau? That, sirs, is what impact means to me when I vote for Pau. And I still remember his performance in his 1st ring, where he did a good job vs DH. Or his 2011 G7 performance (18 Rebounds, may not be the 19 of Worthy, but I feel those 18 were more important for the Lakers' Franchise; 4 assists).
Big Game James is a legend, but I still go with Pau as more impactful player. It is also mentionable that it is harder to go with James because he had a more stacked team. It's easier to say LBJ had more impact in Cleveland, than in Team USA, and I don't think there's nothing wrong with that.
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Last edited by allNet on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 02 Apr 2004 Posts: 599 Location: SAN DOG...
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:56 am Post subject:
Cha*n wrote:
I'd have to go with Pau as Worthy had Magic and he made all of his team mates look bigger. I love Kobe but he makes his team mates a bit smaller.
Oh, this will get some bricks for me.
I hear/read this all the friggin time yet we have had so many scrubs debunk this idea by receiving big paydays based upon career improvement playing with Kobe post snaq'. Can we say Smush? Showed Ariza how to shoot 'properly' regressed, STILL gettin paid...Shannon B? Cut... _________________ Quote from 12/15/15 vs Bucks:
At least this is the last time we'll have to witness it. have at it Kobe.
The degree and extent of the turnaround seen in the team's W-L record upon Pau's arrival - compared to the result trend following Worthy's draft - suggest that the Spaniard's immediate impact is more easily measured. Worthy's Finals MVP accolade in Magic and Cap's final championship year surely counts for plenty of respect too.
I won't get hung up on some form of clinical wordplay wrt impactful. Both had major impacts on multiple rosters and I'm gratetful for both guys having been critical parts of both multiple charges to the NBA Finals and in the earning of multiple rings too.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:03 am Post subject:
allNet wrote:
Triple Double wrote:
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Worthy speed was special as well, he filled the lanes faster than any sf ever, that enable him to get the easy baskets, he would outrun the defense.
Also, could you imagine Gasol playing in the eighties and the physical play. He would disappear. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Worthy speed was special as well, he filled the lanes faster than any sf ever, that enable him to get the easy baskets, he would outrun the defense.
Also, could you imagine Gasol playing in the eighties and the physical play. He would disappear.
I hear that a lot but I sure don't see it when I watch those old tapes. They allowed players to get away with flagrants and some perimeter hand checking, but the day to day banging in the post, running players through multiple screens, rotating on D to contest drives and using your body on O and D is much more physical today than the 80s. Not even close, really. McHale and Parish look alomst polite.
Worthy by a long shot.
Iso situation on the block and Worthy with the ball? Done deal. On top of that, defenses know he going to the basket (so Magic's passing was not an issue in these instances), they just couldn't do anything about it.
You don't often see the words "Pau" and "unstoppable" in the same sentence. However, "unstoppable" has often been used to describe Worthy.
Interesting debate. Pau had a huge impact in the Lakers going to three straight nba finals. His Laker career was 7 seasons, 2 titles and 3 time all star. He will likely get his jersey retired. But I give the edge to Worthy. Worthy was drafted by the Lakers and played his whole career with the Lakers. 12 seasons, 3 titles and 7 time all star. _________________ Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Voices wrote:
allNet wrote:
Triple Double wrote:
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Worthy speed was special as well, he filled the lanes faster than any sf ever, that enable him to get the easy baskets, he would outrun the defense.
Also, could you imagine Gasol playing in the eighties and the physical play. He would disappear.
I hear that a lot but I sure don't see it when I watch those old tapes. They allowed players to get away with flagrants and some perimeter hand checking, but the day to day banging in the post, running players through multiple screens, rotating on D to contest drives and using your body on O and D is much more physical today than the 80s. Not even close, really. McHale and Parish look alomst polite.
Bill Lambier, Rick Mahon, Kurt Rambis, Moses Malone, Dennis Rodman, Maurice Lucas, Bill Walton, Bird was physical and so was McHale, Parish, Malone, Alonzo Mourning, Patrick Ewing...........
A common argument to those that did not live or watch games of the eighties or before is I watched tape and did not see whatever the subject is.
I watched games in person from the 70's to now and there is no question the game was far more physical in 70's and eighties.
Who is your fav all time player? _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject:
No offense but it ain't even close. Worthy is a way better player than Pau ever was.
Pau could NEVER take over a game as a dominant force, James could. He didn't often have to because he played with such a great team. But he could and he did when the others had bad nights. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject:
Wow, all I can say is anyone who votes for Pau over James in this thread, must not have ever seen James play. Cuz it ain't even close! _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject:
And if you are going to talk impact, I would argue that Kobe carried most of that impact. Pau is a very good player, but he has never been a star player who could carry a team. He just happened to play with one of the single most impactful players to ever lace up a basketball shoe. Certainly he is better than a guy like Kwame, Pau has some serious skills, but he is not in James class.
And the truth is, if Kobe had played with Magic and Kareem, he may not have been thought of as great as he obviously is. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Joined: 21 May 2001 Posts: 11831 Location: West LA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject:
Big Game was the Finals MVP for a reason. Without Worthy, Lakers don't win back-to-back for the first time in the league, in years. While I will always appreciate what Pau brought to the Lakers, I can't realistically look at his impact the same way that I saw Worthy's.
Another thing that is always ignored, whenever analysts mention Kobe's impact on other players. Pau had only made the all star team once, prior to being a Laker. As soon as he became a Laker and was playing next to Kobe, all of a sudden he was in the conversation almost every year. _________________ Just chill and watch the new Dynasty evolve...
Time for the Lakers to create a whole new legacy! We want 10 more trophies boys!
And if you are going to talk impact, I would argue that Kobe carried most of that impact. Pau is a very good player, but he has never been a star player who could carry a team. He just happened to play with one of the single most impactful players to ever lace up a basketball shoe. Certainly he is better than a guy like Kwame, Pau has some serious skills, but he is not in James class.
And the truth is, if Kobe had played with Magic and Kareem, he may not have been thought of as great as he obviously is.
Hmmm... Somehow I think you lost track of the point you were trying to make. _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Lakers had already made the Finals and were champs when they acquired Worthy. The Lakers with Magic, Kareem and company were already there. The addition of Pau took the Lakers over the hump immediately--going from two straight first round losses to 3 straight Finals trips and 2 champs. Greater impact player is Pau. _________________ Ahhhh, those were the days...time for a new beginning!
Lakers had already made the Finals and were champs when they acquired Worthy. The Lakers with Magic, Kareem and company were already there. The addition of Pau took the Lakers over the hump immediately--going from two straight first round losses to 3 straight Finals trips and 2 champs. Greater impact player is Pau.
Yep. I don't see why this has to be so hard or even this spirited of a debate. I personally think that Worthy was a better player in his generation than Pau is in his generation. But Pau is still the better player overall. But again, that isn't the topic.
What people are really missing is what Pau did for Fisher, Odom, Ariza, Sasha, Farmar, and Shannon. Those guys got so many good looks at the basket because of the ability to run offense through Pau. Having Pau being able to play in the high post freed up Kobe to punish teams in the lower post. In was a perfect marriage!
I hate comparing generations. But Worthy was great in his day. He was the last of the SF's that could not handle the ball in traffic or facilitate an offense. Scottie Pippen took it to another level and then Grant Hill took it to a level that Worthy could not go. Then came TMac and the evolution was upon us. _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject:
allNet wrote:
Triple Double wrote:
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Yup. It's not like Magic deliberately gave Worthy 8 points per game on fast breaks.
Explain the other 14 points in the post with elite field goal percentage in Iso situations. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject:
magicdays wrote:
Lakers had already made the Finals and were champs when they acquired Worthy. The Lakers with Magic, Kareem and company were already there. The addition of Pau took the Lakers over the hump immediately--going from two straight first round losses to 3 straight Finals trips and 2 champs. Greater impact player is Pau.
Worthy was a #1 option in the post when Kareem was on his last legs.
Name another SF that equalled Kareem's FG% and scoring in the post. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Take Showtime team, rate it on 1-100, take Worthy out, rate it again. Do the same with Lakers 2008-2010 and Pau. I feel the drop is much more pronounced in the 2nd case, hence much more impactful. I do not argue whether Worthy or Pau were the better player, but about what the OP asked. The topic is about impact, not rating a player, so it'd be helpful if people stopped thinking about how good each of them were.
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Yup. It's not like Magic deliberately gave Worthy 8 points per game on fast breaks.
Explain the other 14 points in the post with elite field goal percentage in Iso situations.
To say that Magic was not indirectly responsible for Worthy's success would be a bit disingenuous. Magic applied tremendous amounts of pressure on defenses and allowed everyone to get in a rhythm will great shots. If it comes down to Worthy posting up or Magic carving up the defense, I think I let Worthy do all he wants if I am an opposing coach. _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
allNet wrote:
Triple Double wrote:
To those picking Worthy (and it's not even close?), I'm sure you saw how Magic gave James most of his points. Yes, he played hard, especiallin big games (remember the Dive?), but c'mon now. A huge hunk of his points were dunk courtesy of Earvin's passing.
Actually what I remember seeing the most from Worthy was him posting up on the baseline doing his patented quick spin move or turn around jumper.
Suggesting Worthy couldn't score on his own is disingenuous.
Yup. It's not like Magic deliberately gave Worthy 8 points per game on fast breaks.
Explain the other 14 points in the post with elite field goal percentage in Iso situations.
To say that Magic was not indirectly responsible for Worthy's success would be a bit disingenuous. Magic applied tremendous amounts of pressure on defenses and allowed everyone to get in a rhythm will great shots. If it comes down to Worthy posting up or Magic carving up the defense, I think I let Worthy do all he wants if I am an opposing coach.
Um, opposing coaches did do that.
Worthy scored more in the playoffs with a higher field goal percentage.
This isn't even close, Worthy was a much better player then Pau and had a bigger impact on the game on both ends of the court. Worthy was one of the top 5-10 players in the 80's which is the best era in basketball.
While I personally gave the nod to Worthy in this thread, it is quite close. For one thing, Worthy was nowhere near one of the top 5 players of the 80s, and not top 10, either. That's not a knock, since as you suggest, it was the golden era of the NBA. He was never better than 3rd team All-NBA.
Secondly, while Worthy was the bigger big-game player, and probably a more reliable scorer by a smidge, Gasol was/is a better passer, and had (in his Laker heyday) a greater impact on the boards and - ironically enough, and regardless of whatever people want to say now - defensively. He knew how to use his length. Although he battled in the big games - like Gasol - Worthy, like Gasol, was never known as an exceptional defender.
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