Having a debate... More IMPACTFUL Laker... Pau or Worthy?

[MickMgl]

[quote="Voices"][quote="allNet"]

[KLS]

Worthy is a much faster player in attacking. In terms of tearing down the defense of the opponent, Worthy is it. Paul is a slow elephant compare to the leopard Worthy.

[LakerLanny]

[JerryMagicKobe]

[MIMLaker]

This is one of those debates for which people can go round and round and round. Worthy was a 6'9" SF in a time when a lot of PFs were only 6'8" or so. Despite never being a major rebounder, Worthy nonetheless was an intimidating presence on the court, providing the sort of size-speed ratio that no one had ever seen.

Worthy arguably extended Kareem's career by 2-4 years. Worthy gave Magic a reliable target on the break who could catch the ball from the extended-free-throw line in, and dribble well enough to finish with either hand. As Wilkes retired, and as the Lakers lacked any athletic front-court players beyond Kareem and McAdoo in the mid 80s (and both over the age of 30), this likely allowed Kareem to be more effective on D as opposing bigs had to scramble back to cover Worthy.

Without Worthy, the Showtime break would not be nearly as effective. Coop and Scott were both excellent finishers, but they were only 6-7 and 6-4, respectively. Both could dunk, and both could pull-up, but the effect of having a 6-9, 225 to 235-lb forward barreling down the lane or off the wing can't be underestimated.

Moreover, Worthy would be a rarity in today's NBA, as an effective, occasionally dominant low-post player capable of running the break with speed and efficiency. Although he often pivoted out of the post to set-up face-front iso moves, he also had an underrated arsenal of fakes, spins, and counters that no other small forward today can come close to having. For all of Worthy's devastating effect on the break, his low-post acumen kept the team competitive in the playoffs, especially in 1988, when Kareem could no longer put up 30 and 15 games every other night.


By the same vein, Pau Gasol's impact should not be undersold either. Pau arguably extended Kobe's career by 3-5 years both by (a) cementing the Lakers as a half-court team and (b) allowing Kobe the freedom to not play 36+ minutes and have to score 30+ points every night.

Pau was the poster-boy for the triangle/ triple-post/ read-and-react offense. Shaq was more dominant within 8 feet of the basket, of course. But for all of Shaq's supposed passing skills, his "skills" rarely required more than dishing to an open man while he was triple-teamed. Pau was not dominant, but from 2008-2010, he was well-above-average reliable. And his passing was not merely on kick-outs, but on the elusive "pass to set up the pass" plays which put opponents' heads on swivels from 2008-2010, with Pau, Odom, and Walton orchestrating the half-court ball movement.

Odom also flourished in the triangle, but for all of his gifts, he was NEVER a consistent low-post player. The trade that brought Grant, Butler, and Odom to the Lakers in exchange for Shaq was one-sided not in terms of talent, but skills, as there wasn't as single low-post player in that entire bunch. For practically forever, playoff teams have needed an effective low-post scorer to survive. Without one, Kobe's Laker teams went nowhere from 2004 to 2008.

Pau made teammates better. Odom's lack of post game was forgotten, and his rebounding and Swiss Army knife game benefited. Fish's game was similarly extended, as Pau's slow-down game let Fish be an effective starter well past his physical prime. Bynum was afforded the luxury of a career, as Pau carried the low-post load that Bynum likely could not have carried even if healthy in 2008. Players like Ariza, Sasha, and even Artest reaped the benefits of a reliable low-post big freeing up space for their perimeter shots.


Quite simply, though, Pau brought SKILLS that complemented Kobe PERFECTLY. Excellent passing and ball-handling for a big, without sacrificing the scoring and rebounding or defense (with 1.5 to 1.8 blks a game, that was enough) expected of a big. No 3-point range, but enough to hit from 18 feet and open up passing and cutting lanes for Kobe, Odom, et al.

BOTH of these guys had enormous impact on the team, and on the league. Worthy's rise helped make the Showtime Lakers a dynasty after crushing Finals losses in 1983 and 1984. Pau's presence rejuvenated the 2000s Lakers and led to defeats of both the young-gun Magic and the old-and-ornery Celtics, shutting down their attempt at a Big 3 reign before they could ever get started.

BOTH have earned accolades and eternal Laker respect. No doubt, no question, no mistake.

[Voices]

[quote="MickMgl"][quote="Voices"]

[Voices]

[props]

Pau was a wonderful player for the Lakers.Loved he was part of the Lakers/Celtics rivalry and added to our banners, but James Worthy is my choice...
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Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass,it's learning how to dance in the rain....

[mhan00]

70s and 80s were nowhere close in terms of physicality to defenses today. Sure, flagrants were probably more prevalent, but on a play to play basis defenses were nowhere as refined or physical as they are today. A lot of the new physicality was learned and adapted from Pat Riley's (and later JVG's) Knicks and later the Heat and his now infamous "well, they can't call every foul" philosophy. The NBA had to actually change their hand checking rules since defenses were getting so physical and players were holding so much.

As to the original question, no real way to answer. Just depends on how you want to define a term as nebulous as "impact". I'd lean Worthy for his longer career with the Lakers and less steep decline (though that year after Magic retired was pretty ugly) but I wouldn't blame people for leaning Pau given how sharply our fortunes turned around in response to his arrival here.

[Dr. Laker]

First thought was "Pau - he was Robin to Kobe's Batman while Worthy was Alfred to Kareem and Magic's Batman/Robin rotation."

As I went through my memory banks, however, and harken back to 86-87, I remember for all of the hype about Magic's "Jr. Skyhook" and the big comeback in Game 4, the series really came down to Worthy playing tough denial defense in crunch time on Bird and repeatedly blowing by McHale for buckets and dunks on the other end. Neither Bird nor McHale could even see Worthy - much less, guard him - but Worthy played great on both ends and he was the difference maker in that series.

In 88, Worthy was the Finals MVP. 'Nuff said.

Pau really started to decline midway through 2009-10 and he didn't have a strong playoffs - Metta was more impactful, even. So in the final analysis - Worthy wins.
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On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".

[Dr. Laker]

[Comment removed.]
_________________
On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".

[silkwilkes]

James Worthy could have been a superstar like Magic and Jordan. He had that kind of ability and mental strength. But he decided that it was more important to sacrifice a siginificant amount of his game in order to help the Lakers win trophies... he played for the team. They didn't need him to dominate the ball and go 30/8/6, which he easily could have done. Kareem, Magic, Worthy and Scott needed to share the scoring and the ball, which they all did.

The guy was unbelievable. He was quicker and faster than most guards, could post anyone up, had a great midrange game, was impossible to stop on the break AND had a killer instinct.

Gasol is great no doubt. But Worthy is in a whole different category. Gasol could never be the #1 guy on a team while Worthy could have been a franchise player without a problem.

[MickMgl]

[quote="Voices"][quote="MickMgl"]

[KobeBryantCliffordBrown]

[NomisR]

[magicdays]

[Wino]

[Koalita]

[tonman]

[Mike@LG]

[Triple Double]

[Mike@LG]

[yinoma2001]

[Runway8]

The other way to look at this is, which player is it easier to build around? Magic or Kobe? The obvious answer to me at least, is Magic. Which then would make Pau more impactful for Kobe and the modern Lakers.

I just have issues with some of the comments here making Worthy out to be chop liver. And to say nonsensical things like the Lakers would have won a few without him. I mean right off the bat, in his first 2 years, 83 and 84, the Lakers failed in the finals. Worthy hadn't quite "arrived" yet. From 85 and up, Kareem only got older, so how in the world would the Lakers have won those titles in 85-87-88 without Worthy's emergence? To say that the Lakers may have gone on to win a few without Worthy is smoking some good crack.

I've had my issues with Worthy, mainly the longevity issue. He had none. But at Worthy's peak vs Pau's peak, I'd take Worthy hands down. The honest truth is Pau may be more impactful for the modern Lakers because it's hard to imagine Magic Johnson missing the playoffs even without Worthy. But this just speaks to Magic's greatness. Lebron is like Magic a lot in that sense. You can have a bad supporting group, but their games are just so well-rounded that they'll keep you in the race. Kobe cannot do what Lebron did for the Cavs in those early years. Neither can MJ. Lebron and Magic simply are easier to build around. Whereas MJ and Kobe may be better individual players, but it takes the perfect recipe for them to win. I realize this after 2005. Nobody here believed that a Kobe led team can miss the playoffs. We were all excited about Lamar, Caron, Brian Grant, we even got a two time champion in Rudy T to coach us. That squad totally ruined Rudy T's rep. And I realized from that point, it's difficult to build around Kobe. It has to be perfect, so in that sense, Pau Gasol was more impactful.

[THE_SHOES]