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OregonLakerGuy
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 13207
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | DFWLakerFan wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | James Worthy could have been a superstar like Magic and Jordan. He had that kind of ability and mental strength. But he decided that it was more important to sacrifice a siginificant amount of his game in order to help the Lakers win trophies... he played for the team. They didn't need him to dominate the ball and go 30/8/6, which he easily could have done. Kareem, Magic, Worthy and Scott needed to share the scoring and the ball, which they all did.
The guy was unbelievable. He was quicker and faster than most guards, could post anyone up, had a great midrange game, was impossible to stop on the break AND had a killer instinct.
Gasol is great no doubt. But Worthy is in a whole different category. Gasol could never be the #1 guy on a team while Worthy could have been a franchise player without a problem. |
I think Worthy was great but I don't think he had the handles to be as great as you think he could have been. He did sacrifice his game for the team, but I don't think he was good enough to be #1 on a championship team because he someone to get the ball to him on the break or in the post. |
Shaq... Wilt... |
You could deny James position way down low, you couldn't do so to Shaq or Wilt. |
Deny him and he would face his man up and take him off the dribble. |
CHECK HIM OUT |
Ah memories. 
Probably the most lethal first step I ever saw in a big man. |
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MickMgl
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1987
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | magicdays wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | magicdays wrote: | | Lakers had already made the Finals and were champs when they acquired Worthy. The Lakers with Magic, Kareem and company were already there. The addition of Pau took the Lakers over the hump immediately--going from two straight first round losses to 3 straight Finals trips and 2 champs. Greater impact player is Pau. |
Worthy was a #1 option in the post when Kareem was on his last legs.
Name another SF that equalled Kareem's FG% and scoring in the post. |
Ok, Worthy was a better SF than Pau Actually, Worthy was a better player than Pau but for impact on the team, Pau is greater. |
Still disagree. Understand the points, but Pau never really held is own as a #1 option when Bryant was off the floor.
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I don't understand this statement, it is so off the mark. If you had referred to Memphis' limited success with him as the main guy, it might support your point. But you're overreaching by saying he never held his own when Bryant was off the floor. Pau didn't need Kobe to be effective. He did need him to win. |
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journeyman
Sixth Man
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I've watched Worthy play and Pau.
Skill set, I recall Worthy as being a great finisher. He had a low post and mid post game. Could go right or left. Spin either way. Had a solid mid range jump shot and also a 2nd or 3rd option as a 3 point shooter. Great on the fast break. He ran lanes perfectly and was one of the best finishers on the break for his time.
Pau I also think has a solid skill set. And is one of the most fundamentally sound players in the league today despite his reputation for being soft.
We could also compare this last year to the 1991-1992 season, when Magic unexpectedly retired. Both players were thrust into being the primary option due to injury. Frankly, I think losing Magic has a greater impact on the team than losing Kobe. (From a team standpoint) However, This last year, with the multiple injuries, made for a worse team as a whole. I can't ever remember a game when a team didn't have enough players to cover fouling out.
That said, I don't think the Lakers would have come close to making the playoffs without Worthy in 91. By then he was also 30-31 and developing knee problems. I clearly remember Chic commenting on how under-rated Worthy was because he was behind Magic and Kareem. We actually never really saw Worthy really show all his potential in his prime because he sacrificed his own stats.
My final thought on Worthy is that he is still considered top 50 all time, despite holding back for the majority of his career. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| MickMgl wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | magicdays wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | magicdays wrote: | | Lakers had already made the Finals and were champs when they acquired Worthy. The Lakers with Magic, Kareem and company were already there. The addition of Pau took the Lakers over the hump immediately--going from two straight first round losses to 3 straight Finals trips and 2 champs. Greater impact player is Pau. |
Worthy was a #1 option in the post when Kareem was on his last legs.
Name another SF that equalled Kareem's FG% and scoring in the post. |
Ok, Worthy was a better SF than Pau Actually, Worthy was a better player than Pau but for impact on the team, Pau is greater. |
Still disagree. Understand the points, but Pau never really held is own as a #1 option when Bryant was off the floor.
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I don't understand this statement, it is so off the mark. If you had referred to Memphis' limited success with him as the main guy, it might support your point. But you're overreaching by saying he never held his own when Bryant was off the floor. Pau didn't need Kobe to be effective. He did need him to win. |
No. Phil Jackson had his rotations. Start with Pau and Bryant. End with Pau and Bryant. When Pau was trying to carry the team, he was inconsistent at best as a #1 option.
That was not an issue with Worthy. In the late 80s, the Lakers would get him going in the 1st quarter, and down the stretch as well.
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choylaychunkuen
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Dec 2011
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Game James. For those youngsters that don't know, All those Finals teams in the 80's played defense and good-to-great man-to-man defense. If Pau played in the 80's, he would've gotten handed. Worthy would have an impact today. |
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MickMgl
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1987
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| choylaychunkuen wrote: | | Big Game James. For those youngsters that don't know, All those Finals teams in the 80's played defense and good-to-great man-to-man defense. If Pau played in the 80's, he would've gotten handed. Worthy would have an impact today. |
Actually, there was less defense played in the 80s due to the more restrictive illegal defense rules. |
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Sccit
Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 886
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Lmao at gas0ft being censored on this forum |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| MickMgl wrote: | | choylaychunkuen wrote: | | Big Game James. For those youngsters that don't know, All those Finals teams in the 80's played defense and good-to-great man-to-man defense. If Pau played in the 80's, he would've gotten handed. Worthy would have an impact today. |
Actually, there was less defense played in the 80s due to the more restrictive illegal defense rules. |
But you can hand check and play more physically. Any one else remember when there were only two refs on the floor and you could set mean screens?
The level of physicality between the defense of the 80s until now is tremendous.
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So Disrespectful
Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| umm not even close, hands down Big Game James... I don't even need to explain why, because it really shouldn't have been a debate in the 1st place |
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LakerDYnasty72
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4568
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Having a debate... More IMPACTFUL Laker... Pau or Worthy? |
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| Darth Los Angeles wrote: | | A buddy and I are having a debate about who was the more impactful Laker between Pau and Worthy. I am going with Pau. Simply because of the role he played as the 2nd option and the weight he removed from Kobe as soon as he arrived. In my eyes, I don't think Worthy's impact was the same as Pau's. Nothing against Worthy, I love him. But Pau was a more impactful Laker to me. |
OP- if its any consolation I gave your thread a few days to consider. If you'd asked "who sacrificed more?, or who was the most diverse, or whatever, but you asked who had the most impact. I'm going with Pau.
I asked myself one question: if I took each one off the teams they played on what would be the impact? The Worthy team already had hall of famers, they had won the championship the same year, in short, we were fat and got fatter.
When Pau arrived, however, his addition was electric. I remember very well the different vibes, Pau's was a game changer, Worthy's was more "yeah, we got fatter, and we know ya'll (rest of league) hates us. The former we were grateful, the latter felt like we were entitled to it. |
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easybreeze
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 2381
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:51 am Post subject: |
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When a athlete gets a painting of them done by the likes of LeRoy Neiman and Ernie Barnes, you made an impact in the sport.
Pau on the other hand, may have painting of him in Europe. |
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MickMgl
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1987
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| So Disrespectful wrote: | | umm not even close, hands down Big Game James... I don't even need to explain why, because it really shouldn't have been a debate in the 1st place |
So glad you chimed in to tell us you don't need to explain yourself. You've made this thread so much more intelligent by essentially choosing to not say anything. |
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12670
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I always think back to a Sean Elliot quote in the 90s. They asked him who was the toughest guy he ever guarded. He gave a two part answer. Saying that at guard it was Jordan, but that at Forward it was James Worthy. He then went on to praise Worthy's game. At his peak he was impossible to guard. A great post game against smaller (most) small forwards, great on the break, and a just as good facing up against slower defenders (most). |
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King beef
Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Easily James Worthy. This is one of those debates that is a total function of age. I saw James Worthy play game in and game out. I also saw Pau Gasol play game in and game out. To those of us who saw both, I believe it is a no brainer.
James Worthy not only showed up and excelled in the finals, he was a finals MVP. Furthermore, Worthy put in work with the Lakers year after year. THere were NO fans yelling for his trading. Yeah, he got caught with that hooker the one time, but who hasnt.
I liken the Worthy argument to many Magic arguments. It is hard to understand how good those two (worthy/Magic) were if you didnt watch them game in and game out. On film or highlights, Kobe and Jordan are better than Magic. Because Kobe is the latest, his memories are fresher. But IMHO, Magic is the greatest player of all time and Worthy is hands down better/more impactful that Pau. |
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King beef
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Posts: 356
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | MickMgl wrote: | | choylaychunkuen wrote: | | Big Game James. For those youngsters that don't know, All those Finals teams in the 80's played defense and good-to-great man-to-man defense. If Pau played in the 80's, he would've gotten handed. Worthy would have an impact today. |
Actually, there was less defense played in the 80s due to the more restrictive illegal defense rules. |
But you can hand check and play more physically. Any one else remember when there were only two refs on the floor and you could set mean screens?
The level of physicality between the defense of the 80s until now is tremendous. |
Mike is right. The NBA is softer now, especially defensively. I dont think a 15 year old kid now understands what a "hard foul" is. If you watched basketball in the 80s, you know that "hard fouls" in the 80s would get you suspended many game now days. Flagrants/suspendable offenses now were just regular fouls in the 80s.
And defense in the 80s goes further than that. Not only were you getting hand checked like crazy, it was common knowledge that if you drove the lane and became a problem getting into the paint, you were going to receive a beating. A lot of people were mad at Bynum for laying out JJ Barea, but you are a total hypocrit if you grew up and loved 80s basketball and condemned Bynum. |
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JamaalWilkes
Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1175
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:47 am Post subject: |
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JAMES WORTHY and it's not even close.
They don't belong in the same sentence.
If you are young, watch some YouTube. |
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Koalita
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Till now the only argument I see that supports Worthy being more impactful for his team than Pau, is that Finals MVP. Nothing else seems to support that claim. It's debatable, I'll stick with Pau as I think his team would've missed more by missing him than Worthy's team by missing him. Without Pau, you have Odom and Bynum but no enabler for them, and Kobe is all alone again. Without Worthy you still had a stacked team. Missing an important piece, but still much better than 2008-2010 without Pau.
About the finals MVP, it's obvious that the edge there goes to Worthy, but it is far from a 'no-brainer' or 'not even close'. Shall I remind people from the 'Who deserved the MVP award?' questions that were popping in 2010? Not saying he should have got it, but being in the conversation makes it much closer it may seem. |
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MickMgl
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1987
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| JamaalWilkes wrote: | JAMES WORTHY and it's not even close.
They don't belong in the same sentence.
If you are young, watch some YouTube. |
Old enough to have seen Worthy's entire career, and I haven't forgotten him at his best, or Pau at his best. It's close. |
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LakerLanny
Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47580
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Explain the other 14 points in the post with elite field goal percentage in Iso situations. |
The Worthy iso spin moves in the low post complete with all types of finishes were legendary.
Worthy was not only a great player, but he had a certain flair and style...Showtime!
Worthy's overall game is totally underrated, those games against the Celtics of that era in the Finals were basically Holy Wars. And Pau has his Game 7 vs. the Celtics to have a LOT of pride in also, Pau stepped up huge in that game in the big moments.
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LakeShowSince84
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Worthy. Worthy actually won a finals MVP. He was Mr. Go Time when it mattered in the playoffs. He brought it |
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JamaalWilkes
Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1175
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:34 am Post subject: |
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What's next?
Comparing Magic and Fisher?
This thread is borderline blasphemy.
I think if you asked Magic if Worthy or Pau was more impactful, he would impact you upside the head with a (bleep) slap.
Pau is a nice player, not an all time great. |
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magicdays
Star Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
Posts: 1907
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| JamaalWilkes wrote: | What's next?
Comparing Magic and Fisher?
This thread is borderline blasphemy.
I think if you asked Magic if Worthy or Pau was more impactful, he would impact you upside the head with a (bleep) slap.
Pau is a nice player, not an all time great. |
Wow, just wow. I saw both at their primes and it is close. Anyone who says it is not is off base. Ask Magic and I am sure he would say Worthy. Ask Kobe, and I am sure he would say Pau. I am certain Kobe would also slap you upside your head 
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Voices
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Gasol made 60 million dollars his last 3 years, can anyone point out any highlights during that time? Gasol during his last 3 years which were prime years for the most part did find way to complain about the coaching, he wanted the offense to run through him, I have never heard a player that thought so much about his own abilities.
I have also heard many on this blog defend Gasol, blaming the coaching and management for his lackluster play, what is so absurd about defending Gasol is the dude was getting paid 56 thousand dollars a day every day of his last contract. I would expect any player getting paid that kind of money to give their best every time they stepped on the court.
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vedanta
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Posts: 947
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| magicdays wrote: | | JamaalWilkes wrote: | What's next?
Comparing Magic and Fisher?
This thread is borderline blasphemy.
I think if you asked Magic if Worthy or Pau was more impactful, he would impact you upside the head with a (bleep) slap.
Pau is a nice player, not an all time great. |
Wow, just wow. I saw both at their primes and it is close. Anyone who says it is not is off base. Ask Magic and I am sure he would say Worthy. Ask Kobe, and I am sure he would say Pau. I am certain Kobe would also slap you upside your head |
I can perfectly understand a fan saying that Worthy was better, (I can agree with that) or even much better, but blasphemy? I mean, Pau Gasol is one of the most purely talented bigs to ever play basketball. Nobody with the slightest knowledge of this game can doubt it. Add him defensive consistency (his defense was very good some games, average most of the time, terrible the last seasons) and an "evil edge" he almost never had (the main reason for his sporadic irregulary) and we are talking about an all time monster.
Pau is a just "nice player"? Jesus  I´ve watched this guy outplaying Ming, Duncan, Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudamire, Howard, Garnett,etc., many, many times. Basically every PF/C, almost every game from 2008 to the first months of 2011. Not to speak of his incredible level with Spain vs. several Dream Teams and with the Grizzlies most of the time. |
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MickMgl
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1987
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| JamaalWilkes wrote: | What's next?
Comparing Magic and Fisher?
This thread is borderline blasphemy.
I think if you asked Magic if Worthy or Pau was more impactful, he would impact you upside the head with a (bleep) slap.
Pau is a nice player, not an all time great. |
Magic would simply side with his teammate, and I would agree with him, but real respects real, and Magic knows that Pau is an all-time great. |
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