The defense isn't gonna be as bad as most are thinking
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
I can see this team being anywhere from 7-15th on defense depending on who Byron gets as an assistant. Hopefully it's Dave miller. Davis defense was comparable to Noah and Ibaka!!! That's a tremendous upgrade to Pau last year.


7th? Are you serious? I can see them at best 18-20 range, but 7th? You're getting into the elite defenses.

Again, you can marginally improve defense on a team with poor individual defenders, but to take them into elite territory, I don't buy it, scheme or no scheme.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject:

Yeah, 20th is reasonable. It would be a major improvement already.

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I can see this team being anywhere from 7-15th on defense depending on who Byron gets as an assistant. Hopefully it's Dave miller. Davis defense was comparable to Noah and Ibaka!!! That's a tremendous upgrade to Pau last year.


7th? Are you serious? I can see them at best 18-20 range, but 7th? You're getting into the elite defenses.

Again, you can marginally improve defense on a team with poor individual defenders, but to take them into elite territory, I don't buy it, scheme or no scheme.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject:

trmiv wrote:
dmills wrote:
If they can manage to get up into the top 12 that'll be a marked improvement over last season.


Top 12? I'm hoping they can crack the top 25. They really have no where to go but up from last year.


I think he means 12th in the West.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject:

It'll be better than last years.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:31 am    Post subject:

Im glad we finally have a coach that can be intimidating sometimes, players try a little harder on D.
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Car54
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:57 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I can see this team being anywhere from 7-15th on defense depending on who Byron gets as an assistant. Hopefully it's Dave miller. Davis defense was comparable to Noah and Ibaka!!! That's a tremendous upgrade to Pau last year.


7th? Are you serious? I can see them at best 18-20 range, but 7th? You're getting into the elite defenses.

Again, you can marginally improve defense on a team with poor individual defenders, but to take them into elite territory, I don't buy it, scheme or no scheme.


There's no such thing as a team without poor defenders. The top teams have two of these 3 things bigs that defend the pick, a good perimeter defender, and rim protectors. The lakers have Wes young and X all good perimeter defenders, hill Davis and possibly Randle to defend picks. Hill and Davis as rim protectors. Davis is in the top 5 at doing that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
At the very least, they should be better than last year. We brought back two of our best defenders in Wes and X. Lin is a more versatile defender than we had at point last year. Davis is a better shotblocker/presence in the paint than we had. A lot will depend on the combo's that Scott puts on the floor, the pace and the priorities he has.

I don't like our lack of size, although Sacre can hang defensively with most (but is not ideal offensively), the question is whether Scott can find a good balance offensively that let's us play to our strengths and hide our weaknesses.

I'd like a lineup that is told they are the lockdown group. Set that as an identity/priority. They will have to set that defensive tone as a unit on this team. It's not going to be one player alters the game (because I don't think we have that), but they have combinations that can be successfully led.
It is GREAT to see the return of DB and Golden Throat to the board

BScott is strategic to the improvements that the Lakers will show on defense. He will bring greater attention, emphasis, stability, focus and principals when defending our opponents

They have height in the front court, though more players with "more in their back pocket" would be nice. It should be noted that very few teams have a legitimate center while remembering how ineffective Hibbard was in the playoffs.

Coach T and Pops are prime examples that good defensive schemes allow players with bad reps on D be successful. As the saying goes, it takes team D to stop a star player (seeing what the Spurs limit Lebron).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: The defense isn't gonna be as bad as most are thinking

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
It might now be bad at all. Even if Boozer starts in Davis we have one of the leagues best rim protectors
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Defensively, Ed is still a force protecting the rim. Opponents are shooting 40.1% at the rim against Ed Davis for the season. That is better than Serge Ibaka, Roy Hibbert and Andre Drummond.

I rather have centers who can defend pick and rolls and the paint over a having a big that has the ability to defend centers in the post. Hill and Davis are both good shot blockers and good at defending the pick and roll. Then we have Wes Johnson 1blk 1stl. He has the athleticism and length to make players work hard for a shot. Then there's Lin he's not a bad defender he puts forth the effort and did a good job on Lillard. He just needs to be thought more on defense. Nick Young played some defense under Mike D now imagine how much better he could be with a defensive coach. Xavier Is a good defender as well. Clark looks like he could be one. Same thing with Randall he has the ability to be a good defender.


We will have isses at the PG/SG spot defensively speaking. Lin isn't horrific as people have made him out to be, but he isn't a great defender by any means either. Gets lost in P&Rs. Nash/Lin may be in the bottom tier defensively as far as PGs.

Kobe/X/Clarkson isn't exactly a defensive powerhouse. I'd rather see Kobe save energy on the offensive end so he can play at least average level NBA defense. The effort/energy just hasn't been there for a few years now.

Our bigs will be energetic and more mobile. But size does matter. We will be one of the shortest frontlines in the NBA and those guys will have to battle every night.

We have enough of a track record with most of these players to predict how they'll do defensively. I think Scott's emphasis on it will be nice, and I hope he continues to push it. But at this point of their careers, Nash, Kobe, Boozer are what they are. Hopefully the young players will get the message.


2013-2014 Jeremy Lin Full Defensive Highlights



Hope this helps!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject:

Get Gary Payton to help our perimeter D. Maybe he can join in practice and bring some defensive intensity.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
At the very least, they should be better than last year. We brought back two of our best defenders in Wes and X. Lin is a more versatile defender than we had at point last year. Davis is a better shotblocker/presence in the paint than we had. A lot will depend on the combo's that Scott puts on the floor, the pace and the priorities he has.

I don't like our lack of size, although Sacre can hang defensively with most (but is not ideal offensively), the question is whether Scott can find a good balance offensively that let's us play to our strengths and hide our weaknesses.

I'd like a lineup that is told they are the lockdown group. Set that as an identity/priority. They will have to set that defensive tone as a unit on this team. It's not going to be one player alters the game (because I don't think we have that), but they have combinations that can be successfully led.
It is GREAT to see the return of DB and Golden Throat to the board

BScott is strategic to the improvements that the Lakers will show on defense. He will bring greater attention, emphasis, stability, focus and principals when defending our opponents

They have height in the front court, though more players with "more in their back pocket" would be nice. It should be noted that very few teams have a legitimate center while remembering how ineffective Hibbard was in the playoffs.

Coach T and Pops are prime examples that good defensive schemes allow players with bad reps on D be successful. As the saying goes, it takes team D to stop a star player (seeing what the Spurs limit Lebron).


This
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject:

I have always maintained that defense is mostly a team issue. If the team plays together and holds each other responsible, you can have a good enough defense to win even without a bunch of great defenders.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject:

OregonLakerGuy wrote:
I have always maintained that defense is mostly a team issue. If the team plays together and holds each other responsible, you can have a good enough defense to win even without a bunch of great defenders.


Yup when Metta was in his prime in sac they was still a horrible team. It takes a team effort because there's no way your gonna keep a guy from blowing past you a few times a game. It's impossible with today's rules
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:44 pm    Post subject:

I think Hill will start. I read a few times that Byron loves his energy and effort.

Maybe Lin,Kobe,Johnson,Boozer,Hill or Lin,Kobe,Johnson,Hill,Davis
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Actually trying on defense could improve last year's numbers by quite a bit.

I am hoping that some of the changes in the front court players will positively impact the defense as it would not take much effort at all to improve from whatever that was last year.

Say Hill and Boozer at C and PF to start the season would seem to be HUGE defensive upgrades.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject:

If Kobe and Nash stay healthy I think we will be at least .500
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: The defense will not be elite

There is no rim protector.

The Clippers have Jordan and Kiffin.

The Rockets have Howard.

the Spurs have Duncan.

The value of a rim protector is the value of a championship.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I can see this team being anywhere from 7-15th on defense depending on who Byron gets as an assistant. Hopefully it's Dave miller. Davis defense was comparable to Noah and Ibaka!!! That's a tremendous upgrade to Pau last year.


7th? Are you serious? I can see them at best 18-20 range, but 7th? You're getting into the elite defenses.

Again, you can marginally improve defense on a team with poor individual defenders, but to take them into elite territory, I don't buy it, scheme or no scheme.


There's no such thing as a team without poor defenders. The top teams have two of these 3 things bigs that defend the pick, a good perimeter defender, and rim protectors. The lakers have Wes young and X all good perimeter defenders, hill Davis and possibly Randle to defend picks. Hill and Davis as rim protectors. Davis is in the top 5 at doing that.


Yes. Anthony Davis is a top 5 defender....oh wait, are you talking about Ed Davis, he of minimum salary fame?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
I have always maintained that defense is mostly a team issue. If the team plays together and holds each other responsible, you can have a good enough defense to win even without a bunch of great defenders.


Yup when Metta was in his prime in sac they was still a horrible team. It takes a team effort because there's no way your gonna keep a guy from blowing past you a few times a game. It's impossible with today's rules


Good defensive teams have at least a few great defenders.

Name a good defensive team that had zero great defenders.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I can see this team being anywhere from 7-15th on defense depending on who Byron gets as an assistant. Hopefully it's Dave miller. Davis defense was comparable to Noah and Ibaka!!! That's a tremendous upgrade to Pau last year.
7th? Are you serious? I can see them at best 18-20 range, but 7th? You're getting into the elite defenses.

Again, you can marginally improve defense on a team with poor individual defenders, but to take them into elite territory, I don't buy it, scheme or no scheme.
There's no such thing as a team without poor defenders. The top teams have two of these 3 things bigs that defend the pick, a good perimeter defender, and rim protectors. The lakers have Wes young and X all good perimeter defenders, hill Davis and possibly Randle to defend picks. Hill and Davis as rim protectors. Davis is in the top 5 at doing that.
Yes. Anthony Davis is a top 5 defender....oh wait, are you talking about Ed Davis, he of minimum salary fame?
Does anybody doubt that Coach T will make/demand Pau play good D?

Lakers could not funnel the defenders at Pau because of his "Hola" (matador-type defense. Ed Davis stats are actually good at rim-protecting. He turned down a lucrative offer from the Grizzs before last season.

Davis, Hill, Johnson, Swaggy P (improving his D), Kelly (plays positional D well) and Randle/Clarkson/JLin/Sacre have the potential of playing good Team D - ala Spurs - under the whip of BScott (hopefully with assistants such GPayton and World Peace.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject:

Scott has made defense his #1 priority. If true, Nash will not start. Like others have mentioned defense is a team effort, and they will have a system in place to defend. They are very athletic up front which means they will be able to rotate nicely. Will they be top 12 in the league? Too early to tell, but they absolutely will be much improved.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
I have always maintained that defense is mostly a team issue. If the team plays together and holds each other responsible, you can have a good enough defense to win even without a bunch of great defenders.


Yup when Metta was in his prime in sac they was still a horrible team. It takes a team effort because there's no way your gonna keep a guy from blowing past you a few times a game. It's impossible with today's rules


Good defensive teams have at least a few great defenders.

Name a good defensive team that had zero great defenders.

Orlando magic only had Howard and a bunch of poor defenders and was top 3 in defense.
The lakers had Howard and sucked. Defense is about having a plan and effort. If Davis was was a better rim protector than Ibaka and Noah the past two years what do you consider him to be?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject:

Ed Davis is foul prone and plays his minutes as a reserve, so comparing his stats to DPOY candidates who also led the league in minutes is preposterous. Noah and Ibaka face starters. Ed Davis only starts against Phoenix, though he does dominate them.

Even though he and Hill could be decent as a platoon, we could lead the league in fouls called on centers next year.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:47 am    Post subject:

Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote:
Ed Davis is foul prone and plays his minutes as a reserve, so comparing his stats to DPOY candidates who also led the league in minutes is preposterous. Noah and Ibaka face starters. Ed Davis only starts against Phoenix, though he does dominate them.

Even though he and Hill could be decent as a platoon, we could lead the league in fouls called on centers next year.

So now he's doesn't face starters because he came off the bench? Lol wow the interesting thing is the grizz best defense lineups all included him.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:40 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
I have always maintained that defense is mostly a team issue. If the team plays together and holds each other responsible, you can have a good enough defense to win even without a bunch of great defenders.


Yup when Metta was in his prime in sac they was still a horrible team. It takes a team effort because there's no way your gonna keep a guy from blowing past you a few times a game. It's impossible with today's rules


Good defensive teams have at least a few great defenders.

Name a good defensive team that had zero great defenders.

Orlando magic only had Howard and a bunch of poor defenders and was top 3 in defense.
The lakers had Howard and sucked. Defense is about having a plan and effort. If Davis was was a better rim protector than Ibaka and Noah the past two years what do you consider him to be?


But that's my point. In your Orlando example, they had a defensive player of the year in Howard.

Look at this year's top 4 teams:

Pacers: Hibbert, George, Lance
Miami: LBJ, Bosh
Spurs: Duncan, Leonard
OKC: Ibaka

All have a top level defender at the least.

Ed Davis is a good deal at the vet's minimum. Probably could have made a little more (maybe mini MLE level $) but Pelinka did us a favor. I think he has the opportunity to do what Jordan Hill did a few years ago when he came here, which is a good 15-20 mpg backup big. I don't see Davis as a starter, or even a 30 mpg player, especially at the center position. Too small to bang around.

But with Hill/Davis, we have more mobility at the "center" position, that's for sure. But overall, we're putting them in difficult positions b/c our tip of the spear defenders (Lin, Nash, Kobe, etc.) cannot lock down on penetration so our back end defenders will have to protect the rim, leaving them susceptible to have the penetrator dump the ball off to the other big man.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:44 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote:
Ed Davis is foul prone and plays his minutes as a reserve, so comparing his stats to DPOY candidates who also led the league in minutes is preposterous. Noah and Ibaka face starters. Ed Davis only starts against Phoenix, though he does dominate them.

Even though he and Hill could be decent as a platoon, we could lead the league in fouls called on centers next year.

So now he's doesn't face starters because he came off the bench? Lol wow the interesting thing is the grizz best defense lineups all included him.


For starters, he's playing being ZBo/MGasol so the minutes are sporadic. But Memphis traded for him with the high hopes he would be a major spark off the bench. 2 seasons and he averaged around 15 mpg, 5 ppg, 4 rpg.

He should have a decent chance here so I'm hoping for the best for him. He's still young enough to improve, but he fell flat in Memphis.

But at the minimum I'll gladly take him! (And I'm a big Tar Heel fan so I like him anyways!)
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