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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject:

focus wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Looks like the CDC has learned from the Dallas breach:link

Quote:

That’s why federal officials recently unveiled plans to dispatch a newly assembled response team to any hospital in the country that has a confirmed case of Ebola. Some of the world’s leading experts on Ebola have also converged on Dallas, including two nurses from Emory University Hospital in Atlanta who safely cared for Ebola patients and will train hospital staff on infection control and proper use of protective gear.
“I wish we had put a team like this on the ground the day the patient, the first patient, was diagnosed,” Frieden said at a news conference Tuesday. “That might have prevented this infection. But we will do that from today onward with any case, anywhere in the U.S.”



It's unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place already. Idiots.


To be honest, I'm not surprised in the least that they're inept. Anything that comes out of their mouths isn't exactly reassuring at this point. Bunch of CYA drones.


Wait, why are you not surprised that the CDC is inept? Because of their handling so far of this current crisis, or in general? It sure seems unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place a long time ago.

Didn't these guys see Outbreak or Contagion or read the Hot Zone in their free time the last couple decades at some point? I always assumed we had truly gifted top notch people at the CDC.


It's not the CDC in particular. I just think government agencies in general are notorious for moving at a snail's pace to do much of anything meaningful. As I've gotten older, I have some very good friends that work for the Federal government (some in LE, others in management at USPS) that have only reinforced that feeling. You don't get brownie points for trying to be efficient or proactive. The status quo, try not to rock the boat and most importantly CYA are all mottos to live by. This is true with any company that has gotten so big that there are layers of bureaucracy to sift through and with the Federal government, you have the biggest company of them all.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject:

I think it's really more just ... slow. Not sure I'd call them inept since there is almost no one else in this country more equipped to respond and help.
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focus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:23 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
focus wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Looks like the CDC has learned from the Dallas breach:link

Quote:

That’s why federal officials recently unveiled plans to dispatch a newly assembled response team to any hospital in the country that has a confirmed case of Ebola. Some of the world’s leading experts on Ebola have also converged on Dallas, including two nurses from Emory University Hospital in Atlanta who safely cared for Ebola patients and will train hospital staff on infection control and proper use of protective gear.
“I wish we had put a team like this on the ground the day the patient, the first patient, was diagnosed,” Frieden said at a news conference Tuesday. “That might have prevented this infection. But we will do that from today onward with any case, anywhere in the U.S.”



It's unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place already. Idiots.


To be honest, I'm not surprised in the least that they're inept. Anything that comes out of their mouths isn't exactly reassuring at this point. Bunch of CYA drones.


Wait, why are you not surprised that the CDC is inept? Because of their handling so far of this current crisis, or in general? It sure seems unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place a long time ago.

Didn't these guys see Outbreak or Contagion or read the Hot Zone in their free time the last couple decades at some point? I always assumed we had truly gifted top notch people at the CDC.


It's not the CDC in particular. I just think government agencies in general are notorious for moving at a snail's pace to do much of anything meaningful. As I've gotten older, I have some very good friends that work for the Federal government (some in LE, others in management at USPS) that have only reinforced that feeling. You don't get brownie points for trying to be efficient or proactive. The status quo, try not to rock the boat and most importantly CYA are all mottos to live by. This is true with any company that has gotten so big that there are layers of bureaucracy to sift through and with the Federal government, you have the biggest company of them all.


So yours is a more general view about the response. I am still amazement that the CDC did not have a response team specific to this crisis ready until now. This seems so basic, actually.
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:23 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I think it's really more just ... slow. Not sure I'd call them inept since there is almost no one else in this country more equipped to respond and help.


Well it's just semantics at this point. In my line of work, if you don't get the job done in a timely manner, you're pretty much inept. Like Focus mentioned, a response team seems like such an obvious, minimal action. I'm sure there were people within the CDC that probably pushed to try to get something done. Who knows why (passing the buck, making excuses) but it didn't happen until the fire was put to someone's feet.


Last edited by jonnybravo on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:27 pm    Post subject:

focus wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
focus wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Looks like the CDC has learned from the Dallas breach:link

Quote:

That’s why federal officials recently unveiled plans to dispatch a newly assembled response team to any hospital in the country that has a confirmed case of Ebola. Some of the world’s leading experts on Ebola have also converged on Dallas, including two nurses from Emory University Hospital in Atlanta who safely cared for Ebola patients and will train hospital staff on infection control and proper use of protective gear.
“I wish we had put a team like this on the ground the day the patient, the first patient, was diagnosed,” Frieden said at a news conference Tuesday. “That might have prevented this infection. But we will do that from today onward with any case, anywhere in the U.S.”



It's unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place already. Idiots.


To be honest, I'm not surprised in the least that they're inept. Anything that comes out of their mouths isn't exactly reassuring at this point. Bunch of CYA drones.


Wait, why are you not surprised that the CDC is inept? Because of their handling so far of this current crisis, or in general? It sure seems unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place a long time ago.

Didn't these guys see Outbreak or Contagion or read the Hot Zone in their free time the last couple decades at some point? I always assumed we had truly gifted top notch people at the CDC.


It's not the CDC in particular. I just think government agencies in general are notorious for moving at a snail's pace to do much of anything meaningful. As I've gotten older, I have some very good friends that work for the Federal government (some in LE, others in management at USPS) that have only reinforced that feeling. You don't get brownie points for trying to be efficient or proactive. The status quo, try not to rock the boat and most importantly CYA are all mottos to live by. This is true with any company that has gotten so big that there are layers of bureaucracy to sift through and with the Federal government, you have the biggest company of them all.


So yours is a more general view about the response. I am still amazement that the CDC did not have a response team specific to this crisis ready until now. This seems so basic, actually.


The head of the CDC, Frieden, was already playing a preemptive round of COVER YOUR ASS when he initially tried to blame the nurse for not following protocol. You know, the one that didn't exist. In any event, I have no doubt in his field he is brilliant but it's not always about that. Gotta navigate the red tape to get (bleep) done.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I think it's really more just ... slow. Not sure I'd call them inept since there is almost no one else in this country more equipped to respond and help.


Well it's just semantics at this point. In my line of work, if you don't get the job done in a timely manner, you're pretty much inept. Like Focus mentioned, a response team seems like such an obvious, minimal action. I'm sure there were people within the CDC that probably pushed to try to get something done. Who knows why (passing the buck, making excuses) but it didn't happen until the fire was put to someone's feet.


Just not sure if the CDC had all the freedoms in the world to take action and chose not to, or if they were slowed by government processes in general from doing so.

If it's the latter, why would they be the inept ones?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:02 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I'm surprised it hasn't spread faster honestly. In the age of air travel, people can travel to different continents in a span of 12 hours. All you need is one person who is undetected to infect everyone. Frankly, they need to start synthesizing that ebola drug that saved the doctor ASAP.



Kinda tells you a lot about how difficult it is to spread and contract.


How the heck did that nurse get it if it's only communicable by transfer of blood/fluids etc right? (serious question to the Doc on here)


If you accidentally touch the outside of any part of your contamination suit while disrobing, you could become contaminated even though you followed proper procedures during the actual treatment of the patient.

Try getting undressed without touching the outside of your clothing.

There are painstaking procedures to follow to mitigate these issues, but most health care workers are not specifically trained in great detail or don't have frequent need to implement these procedures. Either the CDC needs to get a team in for training at these small hospitals or patients should get treatment at one of the high-end facilities that specialize in this type of quarantine.


Amazing that they aren't decontaminating outside of suits prior to removal.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:10 pm    Post subject:

I don't think the CDC is telling the truth about how contagious it is to be honest. For one they are sending mixed signals. They are saying that you can't get it unless theres fluid contact but then when somebody makes a threat about having ebola these guys board the flight with full hazmat suits....
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mhan00
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject:

NickF wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I'm surprised it hasn't spread faster honestly. In the age of air travel, people can travel to different continents in a span of 12 hours. All you need is one person who is undetected to infect everyone. Frankly, they need to start synthesizing that ebola drug that saved the doctor ASAP.



Kinda tells you a lot about how difficult it is to spread and contract.


How the heck did that nurse get it if it's only communicable by transfer of blood/fluids etc right? (serious question to the Doc on here)


If you accidentally touch the outside of any part of your contamination suit while disrobing, you could become contaminated even though you followed proper procedures during the actual treatment of the patient.

Try getting undressed without touching the outside of your clothing.

There are painstaking procedures to follow to mitigate these issues, but most health care workers are not specifically trained in great detail or don't have frequent need to implement these procedures. Either the CDC needs to get a team in for training at these small hospitals or patients should get treatment at one of the high-end facilities that specialize in this type of quarantine.


Amazing that they aren't decontaminating outside of suits prior to removal.


I assume it isn't actually that easy to do so or I imagine they would be. Anyone know what kind of gear is needed to do so, and how effective it is?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
I didn't know we had so many experts on the spread of infectious diseases on this board who are more informed than the CDC and world-renowned scientific experts on the subject. Who knew?


The head of CDC has already said the following:

“We’ve already recommended that all non-essential travel to these countries be stopped for Americans.”


Don't need to be an expert to have common sense.
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mhan00
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think the CDC is telling the truth about how contagious it is to be honest. For one they are sending mixed signals. They are saying that you can't get it unless theres fluid contact but then when somebody makes a threat about having ebola these guys board the flight with full hazmat suits....


Well, it looks like they're pretty on point so far since family members and people on the flights these guys were on aren't getting sick. Only the healthcare workers who treated them, apparently without proper protection for the first two days while they were awaiting confirmation of Ebola, got sick.

http://gawker.com/hospital-workers-treated-ebola-patient-for-two-days-wit-1646751180?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&;utm_campaign=wednesdayPM
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NickF
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
NickF wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I'm surprised it hasn't spread faster honestly. In the age of air travel, people can travel to different continents in a span of 12 hours. All you need is one person who is undetected to infect everyone. Frankly, they need to start synthesizing that ebola drug that saved the doctor ASAP.



Kinda tells you a lot about how difficult it is to spread and contract.


How the heck did that nurse get it if it's only communicable by transfer of blood/fluids etc right? (serious question to the Doc on here)


If you accidentally touch the outside of any part of your contamination suit while disrobing, you could become contaminated even though you followed proper procedures during the actual treatment of the patient.

Try getting undressed without touching the outside of your clothing.

There are painstaking procedures to follow to mitigate these issues, but most health care workers are not specifically trained in great detail or don't have frequent need to implement these procedures. Either the CDC needs to get a team in for training at these small hospitals or patients should get treatment at one of the high-end facilities that specialize in this type of quarantine.


Amazing that they aren't decontaminating outside of suits prior to removal.


I assume it isn't actually that easy to do so or I imagine they would be. Anyone know what kind of gear is needed to do so, and how effective it is?


Not sure what it would be here but in Africa they have guys (in protective gear) with tanks of chlorine that they spray all over the outside of the suit before it is removed.
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
I didn't know we had so many experts on the spread of infectious diseases on this board who are more informed than the CDC and world-renowned scientific experts on the subject. Who knew?


The head of CDC has already said the following:

“We’ve already recommended that all non-essential travel to these countries be stopped for Americans.”


Don't need to be an expert to have common sense.


There's a difference between making a recommendation and instituting a legal travel ban. You are conflating the two.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
KobeRe-Loaded wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
I didn't know we had so many experts on the spread of infectious diseases on this board who are more informed than the CDC and world-renowned scientific experts on the subject. Who knew?


The head of CDC has already said the following:

“We’ve already recommended that all non-essential travel to these countries be stopped for Americans.”


Don't need to be an expert to have common sense.


There's a difference between making a recommendation and instituting a legal travel ban. You are conflating the two.


But isn't the recommendation to institute a travel ban? Just like the posters you responded to were recommending. It's not like these posters have the poster to institute a travel ban.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject:

Recommending that individuals avoid traveling is different from legally preventing travel.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:43 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Before flying from Cleveland to Dallas on Monday, Vinson called the CDC to report an elevated temperature of 99.5 Fahrenheit. She informed the agency that she was getting on a plane, the official said, and she wasn't told not to board the aircraft.

After authorities announced the 29-year-old nurse had been diagnosed with Ebola on Wednesday, they were quick to say guidelines weren't followed when she took the commercial flight.



http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/health/texas-ebola-outbreak/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:32 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
Quote:
Before flying from Cleveland to Dallas on Monday, Vinson called the CDC to report an elevated temperature of 99.5 Fahrenheit. She informed the agency that she was getting on a plane, the official said, and she wasn't told not to board the aircraft.

After authorities announced the 29-year-old nurse had been diagnosed with Ebola on Wednesday, they were quick to say guidelines weren't followed when she took the commercial flight.



http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/health/texas-ebola-outbreak/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Nah, not inept at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:01 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think the CDC is telling the truth about how contagious it is to be honest. For one they are sending mixed signals. They are saying that you can't get it unless theres fluid contact but then when somebody makes a threat about having ebola these guys board the flight with full hazmat suits....


Well, it looks like they're pretty on point so far since family members and people on the flights these guys were on aren't getting sick. Only the healthcare workers who treated them, apparently without proper protection for the first two days while they were awaiting confirmation of Ebola, got sick.

http://gawker.com/hospital-workers-treated-ebola-patient-for-two-days-wit-1646751180?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&;utm_campaign=wednesdayPM


I'm not an infectious disease expert but I'm guessing a lot of this might have to do with the viral load, how much virus in in the body of the infected person. Early on in the disease course, there might be virus present and being shed but maybe not at high amounts. But it is in the end stage when patients are suffering massive vomiting, diarrhea, maybe the bleeding and also after death when the body is full of the virus and it is essentially leaking out everywhere that the risk to others is the greatest.

That might be why the family members of the man in Dallas and the people he had contact with in the early stages do not appear to be getting sick but some of the hospital staff who cared for him as he was dying are.

Probably why the health care workers (doctors and nurses) are so affected in Africa. And why family members of people in Africa are at great risk, they care for their dying loved ones at home often, with zero protective gear and after death they often clean the body and touch the body as part of funeral rites.

And all it takes is a tiny amount of that virus-loaded fluid on your hand and you touch your eye or your nose to transmit it to yourself. You would be amazed at how often most of us touch our eyes or mouth or nose during the course of a day. Not to mention small cuts or breaks in the skin you don't even know you have.

Which is not to say you cannot become infected coming in contact with a person in the early stages, just that it is way more likely if they are in the end stages, IMO. So the live-in boyfriend of the first nurse diagnosed is certainly at some risk but since her illness was quickly diagnosed, he is at less risk than she was, touching the very ill Liberian man who died, as part of her job.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: Ebola

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
Drifts wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
This Ebola outbreak is getting scary. Over 600 deaths and wide spread infection in the affected areas in Africa. Now on CNN they said they are flying 2 infected Americans to Georgia for treatment. Obama is meeting with some African leaders next week at the White House which may or may not be cancelled. With the air travel these days this could get out of hand. Scary times!!


I don't think transporting infected Americans will cause an outbreak, more so, Obama meeting African leaders... come on, you do know how Ebola is transmitted?


I don't think its clear how its really transmitted and to what degree of contact will cause an infection. These last few months have proven that. There is too much ignorance on this disease and the CDC is way to arrogant in their ability to contain it. Hopefully we all wake up before it becomes a pandemic.


I watched some guy talking about how there is a remote possibility of it going airborne. The chance is very very very small, but that chance slowly grows the more the disease spreads.




The chance is small, but that chance grows exponentially as the disease spreads. The greater the number of active hosts, the greater the reservoir of viruses capable of mutating.



They would have to mutate to become airborne and then to take hold in the cells of the respiratory tree. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario.




Yes, an incredibly unlikely probability that is growing exponentially with the population of infected hosts. A strain that could use an airborne vector would still have to take hold in the respiratory tree AND still be (in this new mutated state) as virulent. The latter is a math property in our favor. It is a very tiny chance, but it is troubling in that the tiny chance is compounding with exponential growth.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
focus wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Looks like the CDC has learned from the Dallas breach:link

Quote:

That’s why federal officials recently unveiled plans to dispatch a newly assembled response team to any hospital in the country that has a confirmed case of Ebola. Some of the world’s leading experts on Ebola have also converged on Dallas, including two nurses from Emory University Hospital in Atlanta who safely cared for Ebola patients and will train hospital staff on infection control and proper use of protective gear.
“I wish we had put a team like this on the ground the day the patient, the first patient, was diagnosed,” Frieden said at a news conference Tuesday. “That might have prevented this infection. But we will do that from today onward with any case, anywhere in the U.S.”



It's unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place already. Idiots.


To be honest, I'm not surprised in the least that they're inept. Anything that comes out of their mouths isn't exactly reassuring at this point. Bunch of CYA drones.


Wait, why are you not surprised that the CDC is inept? Because of their handling so far of this current crisis, or in general? It sure seems unbelievable to me that this wasn't in place a long time ago.

Didn't these guys see Outbreak or Contagion or read the Hot Zone in their free time the last couple decades at some point? I always assumed we had truly gifted top notch people at the CDC.


It's not the CDC in particular. I just think government agencies in general are notorious for moving at a snail's pace to do much of anything meaningful. As I've gotten older, I have some very good friends that work for the Federal government (some in LE, others in management at USPS) that have only reinforced that feeling. You don't get brownie points for trying to be efficient or proactive. The status quo, try not to rock the boat and most importantly CYA are all mottos to live by. This is true with any company that has gotten so big that there are layers of bureaucracy to sift through and with the Federal government, you have the biggest company of them all.


POTUS' "Ebola SWAT Team" team was the wrong message IMO and reeks of more of the same reactive thinking to Ebola. Ebola Response Team is the same message Tom Frieden conveyed after the first nurse was infected. It's all well and good while the infection is only being treated in a few locations, but what happens if an Ebola infection starts popping up in 10-12 different cities at once? Is the CDC staffed to provide that kind oversight?

One thing that has been coming through loud and clear is that hospital staffs don't believe they are properly trained or equipped to handle an infection case. While having subject-matter experts on site to consult with is never a bad thing, I don't think the hospital staffs need babysitting. What they need is proper training and equipment on how to handle this without waiting 24-hours for a response team to arrive. They're educated people whose careers revolve around constant learning.

The message the POTUS and CDC should be conveying to the public is they underestimated the nation's readiness to handle Ebola but here's the Government CDC's plan to get hospitals ready.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Ebola

angrypuppy wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
Drifts wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
This Ebola outbreak is getting scary. Over 600 deaths and wide spread infection in the affected areas in Africa. Now on CNN they said they are flying 2 infected Americans to Georgia for treatment. Obama is meeting with some African leaders next week at the White House which may or may not be cancelled. With the air travel these days this could get out of hand. Scary times!!


I don't think transporting infected Americans will cause an outbreak, more so, Obama meeting African leaders... come on, you do know how Ebola is transmitted?


I don't think its clear how its really transmitted and to what degree of contact will cause an infection. These last few months have proven that. There is too much ignorance on this disease and the CDC is way to arrogant in their ability to contain it. Hopefully we all wake up before it becomes a pandemic.


I watched some guy talking about how there is a remote possibility of it going airborne. The chance is very very very small, but that chance slowly grows the more the disease spreads.




The chance is small, but that chance grows exponentially as the disease spreads. The greater the number of active hosts, the greater the reservoir of viruses capable of mutating.



They would have to mutate to become airborne and then to take hold in the cells of the respiratory tree. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario.




Yes, an incredibly unlikely probability that is growing exponentially with the population of infected hosts. A strain that could use an airborne vector would still have to take hold in the respiratory tree AND still be (in this new mutated state) as virulent. The latter is a math property in our favor. It is a very tiny chance, but it is troubling in that the tiny chance is compounding with exponential growth.


I know how this happens. I watched Outbreak!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject:

I don't envy those Dallas nurses... or any nurses... working with Ebola patients right now. The training hasn't been up to par, and they are literally risking their lives when they care for these sick patients.

God bless them. It's an under appreciated job.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:
Going to be an interesting Holiday season.


I think so too. With flu season coming up along with holiday travel, I expect a lot of false positives to pop up, a lot of hospitals to be scrambling, and a lot of people being prohibited from flying.

Airline stocks are already taking a hit from this one incident. I expect them to take a beating over the holidays.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject:

http://news.yahoo.com/doctor-visited-africa-tested-ebola-nyc-003404036.html
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numero-ocho
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/doctor-visited-africa-tested-ebola-nyc-003404036.html


This is an example of how effective "enhanced" screening will be. On the one hand, self-monitoring worked but this was a doctor who had experience in treating Ebola. Even then, he could still have potentially infected others, especially his girlfriend.

I'm just glad Los Angeles isn't one of the funnel cities.
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