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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: Gary Vitti believe pace of play influences injuries |
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I'm listening to ESPN 710's "Mason and Ireland." Don't worry, this isn't from one of those morons. But Mike Trudell is on.
He's saying that Gary Vitti believes that the style of play has influenced the influx of injuries. He's not blaming Mike D'antoni specifically, but the style does matter. They point to the 2 peat years while the team ran the slower paced triangle, and the number of injuries for our smalls were far less.
Year: Wing player injury
2007-08: Ariza late in the season
2008-09: Farmar a few games
2009-10: Sasha a few games
2010-11: Barnes
2011-12: -
2012-13: Nash, Kobe late in the season
2013-14: Young, Farmar, Henry, Blake, Nash, Kobe
Tough to say.
Farmar, Henry and Nash have a history of injuries.
And Kobe is older.
What do you guys think? Does pace increase injury? |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I think it can play a part.
But age and mileage play a substantially bigger role. |
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K2 Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 23529
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Just-Ming It.
Last edited by K2 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rawr Star Player
Joined: 26 Dec 2007 Posts: 1186
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: |
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I think an under-appreciated point is that it's possible that Mike D'Antoni's practice style contained lots and lots of full game-like scrimmages at a fast pace. I can only imagine how much this must have affected the injury problems. _________________ You are either in or on your way to the NBA Finals. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Gary Vitti believe pace of play influences injuries |
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epak wrote: | What do you guys think? Does pace increase injury? |
I doubt it matters, but you're not going to really get any good data by analyzing 5 years on one team -- not enough guys, too many other factors (like age).
This is something you need to do by analyzing pace of teams across the league for an extended period.
Otherwise people are just cherry-picking data to make whatever point they want to make. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'll also add, I don't the pace of play matters as much as the style of play. If you're the type of team that is constantly attacking the basket over and over and over again, at a high pace, yeah I can see that.
But if you're just jacking up jumpers within 7 seconds of the shot clock, then no.
I believe we were 6th worst in the NBA in terms of average distance of FG attempt and 2nd worst in terms of percentage of shots that were within 3 feet. So that tells me we were a jump shooting team. |
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Lakers#1Team Retired Number
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 36360 Location: Nomad
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | I think it can play a part.
But age and mileage play a substantially bigger role. |
Agree. The injuries to the younger players might have been a snowball affect from the other injuries. Too many minutes too soon (for their bodies to handle). |
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Nnamdi21 Star Player
Joined: 06 Mar 2009 Posts: 3715
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Phil jackson teams were always managed well and hardly had any major injuries. Part was luck, part was his ability to manage player minutes.
Plus lottery talented teams always get injured. I remember the warriors in their 15+ year down time always had half of the roster on the injured list by mid year. Always. Maybe its the morale and negativity of the team that plays a part too.... |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Nnamdi21 wrote: | Phil jackson teams were always managed well and hardly had any major injuries. Part was luck, part was his ability to manage player minutes.
Plus lottery talented teams always get injured. I remember the warriors in their 15+ year down time always had half of the roster on the injured list by mid year. Always. Maybe its the morale and negativity of the team that plays a part too.... |
Plus, you had bench scrubs (Xavier, Wes Johnson, etc.) who all of a sudden got major minutes. X's body broke down. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Simple physics. When you apply more force, your risk greater impacts. With greater/increased impacts comes increased risks.
If you jump off the roof of your house one time, there is a chance that you land uninjured. If you jump off the roof 10 times, that risk of injury increases significantly. Greater pace means more activity/possessions and with more activity/possessions comes the attendant increased risk since you've greater opportunity.
That said, you can still easily injure yourself the very first time you jump off your roof (Or if you're Greg Oden, the moment you step out of bed in the morning ) _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8839
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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good try Gary (Mr. ice bag is my only solution) Vitti. those PHX teams of 8 years ago were pretty healthy consider they played in an even faster pace and with some old vets as well. way to deflect the blames and make MDA a scapegoat for all the injuries. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I hope I don't get banned...
but I am *mildly* amused by the coincidence of massive amounts of injuries during the one year in history where we happen to tank. that is all.
I also have to add this: at least in Kobe's case, my opinion is that his injuries are largely due to the fact that the officials contiually allow more contact on Kobe than most other stars of his status, both currently and in the past. Why did MJ never have the hand injuries that Kobe got? If you got near Jordan's hands, he was at the line. Not so anymore. But of course, nobody talks about that.
Last edited by SuperboyReformed on Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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K28 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Nov 2012 Posts: 10038
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Both of D'Antoni's years here, the team was beset by huge injury problems.
Not a coincidence. |
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K28 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Nov 2012 Posts: 10038
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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I was just thinking last night, that I don't think there was another coach I detested more than D'Antoni.
His entire coaching tenure was basically a huge Eff You from Jim to the fan base.
The karmic consequences were not surprising in that regard. |
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21415
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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He mentioned this in the new yorker article on Kobe. He said the fast pace is just a hair away from being out of control. And he said Phil's triangle is very controlled. |
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NomisR Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 471
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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kray28_ wrote: | I was just thinking last night, that I don't think there was another coach I detested more than D'Antoni.
His entire coaching tenure was basically a huge Eff You from Jim to the fan base.
The karmic consequences were not surprising in that regard. |
Why? Because he didn't hire someone that said he didn't want to coach, wouldn't have come back, and at the time only wanted to coach for one year while the team was looking for someone long term?
Yes, makes perfect sense. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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It makes little sense to me. The pace of the whole league was vastly faster in the '60s, and substantially faster in the '80s. Was the incidence of injuries higher back then? |
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Krispy Kreme Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 12252
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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kray28_ wrote: | Both of D'Antoni's years here, the team was beset by huge injury problems.
Not a coincidence. |
yet the jim buss homers will say otherwise.
thank you gary for speaking the truth. _________________ Dominating every day. |
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70sdude Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 4567
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have much confidence in Vitti's interpretation of the data points between the triangle eras and Mike D's period. There's more than a pace of play differential going on there too.
Lower injury rates among the smalls is also partially explained by lower participant age of the smalls in the triangle. In the 2001 season, Kobe and Fish were each 22 y/o. Shaw and Harp had not been full-time players throughout thier careers on other clubs and were "young-ish" health-wise for us that season, while in their early thirties.
Last year, we had the initial guard talent concentrated in Nash and Kobe, each in their late 30's, and both had careers of unceasing play throughout. Nash ranks 10th among active players in terms of minutes played; Kobe is third most. That poses essentially a planned breakdown in the making for that backcourt, under any style of play, under any coach. |
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AirShooter Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2014 Posts: 456
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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The Spurs play at a pretty good pace with some really old guys and they're able to do well. It's about depth and being able to properly manage roster rotations and minutes. If anything, it's D'Antoni's habit of overplaying guys heavy minutes instead of using more depth and monitoring rotation minutes of key guys that leads to injuries. It's not the pace that's causing injuries. Popovich does quite well with his face paced Spurs. |
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Janggoon8 Star Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 1552
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'll always blame D'antoni for Kobe's injury. Didn't have the balls to sit him down or monitor his minutes. 45.5 mpg in his last 7 games leading up to his injury. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | He mentioned this in the new yorker article on Kobe. He said the fast pace is just a hair away from being out of control. And he said Phil's triangle is very controlled. |
Ah thanks. Didn't know where he was getting it from. |
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danzag Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 Posts: 22244 Location: Brazil
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry guys.
I didn't envision this turning into a "Hate D'antoni" thread.
Was just wondering if you guys agreed with Vitti or not.
It seems difficult to correlate, IMO. Too many instances of simple accidents, i.e. Andrew Bynum being taken out by his own teammates twice.
I don't recall the Pho Suns having more injuries than normal, but I didn't check. But then again, did Nash have those back problems before Pho? I don't remember and am too lazy to check |
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oliverginob Star Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 1465
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Id blame it on minutes which D'Antoni doesn't manage well. you could expect to play anywhere between 4 seconds and 40 minutes as a role player. |
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